Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:what are some ways Israel can deal with the Palestinians, taking into consideration that they are not going to stop being violent toward Israel? I am a pacifist and I'm finding myself supporting Israel whole-heartedly because I believe the violent behavior of the Palestinians is unacceptable.

I admire non-violent struggle and change, which is usually done by the underdog. Since Israel is stronger, what non-violent means can they use to deal with the Palestinians, if they continue to launch rockets at them?

I admit I am uneducated and naive but i am asking sincerely. I'd like to hear what people like me think.

Your premise is wrong. They will stop being violent toward Israel when they have their independence. They are under occupation in WB and being starved out with blockades in Gaza.

But let me ask you this. Since the genesis of this conflict was the abduction and killing of three Israeli boys, which we now know to be the act of two people who are not directed by Hamas, what do you think of the Israeli response -- arresting 350 individuals, killing five Palestinians. They shut down entire towns, preventing people from going to work. By day 3 the Deputy Minister of Defense was already talking about military action in Gaza -- notably on the wrong side of the country if you are looking for kidnappers. Charitable organizations were raided, and after eight days the first West Bank resistance began, which was in the form of resisting the military.

Do you think that this is an appropriate response to a triple homicide? To me it looks like collective punishment and a deliberate attempt to provoke a response.

According to this video, Hamas doesn't intend to stop until they kill all the Jews: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/30/Hamas-TV-Muslims-to-exterminate-the-Jews

And on the other end, you have a member of the israeli parlament who said : "They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists," Shaked said, adding, "They are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists.” "Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there."
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/16/371556/israel-must-kill-all-palestinian-mothers/

So, I guess unless jews and arabs kill themselves to extermination, we won't have peace ;


I think Islam is the only religion that approves of kiling all the infidels/non-Muslims. Most other religions preach peace. The Iraelis are wrong and their actionsare against the principles of true Judaeism.

Anonymous wrote:I think Islam is the only religion that approves of kiling all the infidels/non-Muslims. Most other religions preach peace. The Iraelis are wrong and their actionsare against the principles of true Judaeism.

Anonymous wrote:According to this, unless you convert to Islam-you are doomed in an Islamic society. It is the only religion that encourages and condones war-not peace.


The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Anonymous wrote:Historically, Muslims are at the center of most indiscriminate wars or killings-or the cause of them anyway.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to this, unless you convert to Islam-you are doomed in an Islamic society. It is the only religion that encourages and condones war-not peace.


The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

If you want to have a religious debate, please go post in the religious forum

Also why didn't you quote the verse that came before that? So you csn mislead people? Here is the verse thats right before the one you're citing:

.2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. "

The context is if MUSLIMS GET ATTACKED then Muslims have the right to attack back, and the context is very clear on that, the theme comes into play on verse 190, not verse 191 which non-Muslims quote alone, the non-Muslim should quote from verse 190 onwards, and once doing so one will see that this is a defensive war, not an offensive one, if people attack the Muslims then the Muslims have the right to attack back, and that is exactly what the verses are saying.   

 The verses even say that if the people who started the fight begin to stop and make peace than we too must also stop and make peace as well,. You should read these verses in their textual and historical context. You should read the whole verse an the few verses before and few after instead of randomly quoting verses outside if their revealed contexts.Those verses were revealed after the unbelievers broke the treaty with the Prophet peace upon him and after he took over Mecca and forgave them for what they have done and still some of them would not stop killing the Muslims .

Anonymous wrote:A non violent solution is possible...but first both sides need to acknowledge the other sides perspective/fears/desires.

For Israel, they believe that the palestinians want to slaughter them, that the arabs in general want to drive them to the sea. And that the world is against Israel. They believe that the survival of Israel is central to the survival of the Jewish people. This is realized in referring to things like "Tunnels of Terror."

My understanding is the Palestinians believe that Israel wants to occupy them and treat them as second class citizens. That they are subhuman. This is realized in all of the Apartheid talk.

In order to have a peaceful solution, the Israelis need to see how the Palestinians view the conflict, and the Palestinians need to see the fear that is driving the Israeli actions.

Then, they can sit down, and start to talk with reasonable perspectives. How can Israel demonstrate respect for the Palestinians? How can the Palestinians show the Israelis that they don't want to kill them?

Until that happens, nothing will change.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to this, unless you convert to Islam-you are doomed in an Islamic society. It is the only religion that encourages and condones war-not peace.


The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

If you want to have a religious debate, please go post in the religious forum

Also why didn't you quote the verse that came before that? So you csn mislead people? Here is the verse thats right before the one you're citing:

.2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. "

The context is if MUSLIMS GET ATTACKED then Muslims have the right to attack back, and the context is very clear on that, the theme comes into play on verse 190, not verse 191 which non-Muslims quote alone, the non-Muslim should quote from verse 190 onwards, and once doing so one will see that this is a defensive war, not an offensive one, if people attack the Muslims then the Muslims have the right to attack back, and that is exactly what the verses are saying.   

 The verses even say that if the people who started the fight begin to stop and make peace than we too must also stop and make peace as well,. You should read these verses in their textual and historical context. You should read the whole verse an the few verses before and few after instead of randomly quoting verses outside if their revealed contexts.Those verses were revealed after the unbelievers broke the treaty with the Prophet peace upon him and after he took over Mecca and forgave them for what they have done and still some of them would not stop killing the Muslims .

You posted about the Quran, so why can't someone follow up without being sent to the religion forum?

Anonymous wrote:A non violent solution is possible...but first both sides need to acknowledge the other sides perspective/fears/desires.

For Israel, they believe that the palestinians want to slaughter them, that the arabs in general want to drive them to the sea. And that the world is against Israel. They believe that the survival of Israel is central to the survival of the Jewish people. This is realized in referring to things like "Tunnels of Terror."

My understanding is the Palestinians believe that Israel wants to occupy them and treat them as second class citizens. That they are subhuman. This is realized in all of the Apartheid talk.

In order to have a peaceful solution, the Israelis need to see how the Palestinians view the conflict, and the Palestinians need to see the fear that is driving the Israeli actions.

Then, they can sit down, and start to talk with reasonable perspectives. How can Israel demonstrate respect for the Palestinians? How can the Palestinians show the Israelis that they don't want to kill them?

Until that happens, nothing will change.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A non violent solution is possible...but first both sides need to acknowledge the other sides perspective/fears/desires.

For Israel, they believe that the palestinians want to slaughter them, that the arabs in general want to drive them to the sea. And that the world is against Israel. They believe that the survival of Israel is central to the survival of the Jewish people. This is realized in referring to things like "Tunnels of Terror."

My understanding is the Palestinians believe that Israel wants to occupy them and treat them as second class citizens. That they are subhuman. This is realized in all of the Apartheid talk.

In order to have a peaceful solution, the Israelis need to see how the Palestinians view the conflict, and the Palestinians need to see the fear that is driving the Israeli actions.

Then, they can sit down, and start to talk with reasonable perspectives. How can Israel demonstrate respect for the Palestinians? How can the Palestinians show the Israelis that they don't want to kill them?

Until that happens, nothing will change.

They are de facto occupied by the water, air, and land blockade.

And Palestinians are killed at 10x the rate of Israelis. Israelis do far, far more of the killing. So it's hard for me to see why Israelis are so terrified. Seems it should be the other way around to me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A non violent solution is possible...but first both sides need to acknowledge the other sides perspective/fears/desires.

For Israel, they believe that the palestinians want to slaughter them, that the arabs in general want to drive them to the sea. And that the world is against Israel. They believe that the survival of Israel is central to the survival of the Jewish people. This is realized in referring to things like "Tunnels of Terror."

My understanding is the Palestinians believe that Israel wants to occupy them and treat them as second class citizens. That they are subhuman. This is realized in all of the Apartheid talk.

In order to have a peaceful solution, the Israelis need to see how the Palestinians view the conflict, and the Palestinians need to see the fear that is driving the Israeli actions.

Then, they can sit down, and start to talk with reasonable perspectives. How can Israel demonstrate respect for the Palestinians? How can the Palestinians show the Israelis that they don't want to kill them?

Until that happens, nothing will change.

They are de facto occupied by the water, air, and land blockade.

And Palestinians are killed at 10x the rate of Israelis. Israelis do far, far more of the killing. So it's hard for me to see why Israelis are so terrified. Seems it should be the other way around to me.