Nurse-in at Hirshhorn on 2/12 from 10-12

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[Post New]02/06/2011 01:54
TheWife
Member Offline
Anonymous wrote:Your husband has to say these thing but you shouldn't trust him because you have been confrontational, rude and insulting, not to mention boring, and that may be the most offensive. When I take my 15 yr. old son and my 10 yr. old son out, not to mention my69 yr. old father to a restaurant, movie, church, or anywhere in public, they do need, nor do they want, to see women baring their breasts and nursing. Maybe your are discreet but you are one of the very few. My father could not believe his eyes. Your rights end where mine begin. The rights of breast feeding mothers end where the public's rights begin. It is disgusting to watch women Bf on Metro, on a park bench, in a museum. One of you zealots, in another thread, said she would plop out her boob in front of the President and nurse, None of you has a sense of public decorum. I saw a woman hike up her sweater (she was wearng no bra, and plop baby on breast. I was furuous with her. My children and my father were beyond embarrased. What makes you think that your rights supercede those of my children? They do not.

I do hope that sanity will prevail and these laws allowing women to breast feed anywhere they wish in public will be repealed and another law enacted that they may breast feed in public but must cover breast and cannot breast feed in museums, restaurants, movies, or park benches.


Which am I, a zealot with no sense of decorum, or boring? Give examples, "Anonymous" of anything (at all) that I've said that has been "confrontational," "rude," or "insulting" -- again, every post I've made is under my own name, so I'm sure you can back up your claims.

As has been pointed out, this incident took place at an art museum. Where one is confronted by bared breasts (and naked, overweight, hairy men as well) in any and every set of circumstances. If that is "art," then how is the possible sight of a woman's breast, in the context of its intended use, "disgusting?" Would I breastfeed in front of the president (assuming, of course, that I were still breastfeeding)? Yes. Because, no matter how frequent or common-place my NIP was, it never involved exposing myself. That and, supposedly, our president is in favor of breastfeeding rights. So, unless he's a hypocrite, I doubt it would bother him or surprise him.

As for my rights being able to "supercede" those of your children, I'm curious: do the rights of your children supersede the rights of my child? Because my child(ren) has/have the right to be fed in the healthiest possible manner, when and where they need to be, just as a child fed with a bottle does. And, unfortunately, as with everything in life, you have to take the bad with the good. For every woman who "hike(s) up her sweater" without a bra (which I've never seen -- not ever), there are literally hundreds of women who do not. And they do not deserve to be harassed, embarrassed, or attacked because of the actions of another person. (Nor do I deserve vitriol that should be aimed at someone you seem to be otherwise angry with -- or to be lumped in with any and everyone simply because they claim to be in favor of breastfeeding rights, as evidenced by some of the posts here.) That's the same type of argument that leads to bigotry, racism, and other forms of discrimination; some people behave badly or inappropriately, therefore everyone "like them" is just as "bad."

All that said, do you really, truly believe that your 15 year old son does not "want, to see women baring their breasts?" If he is a normal, healthy, average, heterosexual 15 year old boy, then there's very little in this world that he wants to see more than a woman baring her breasts. Fortunately, the number of women who would have the desire to expose themselves to a 15 year old boy, especially while in the non-sexual act of breastfeeding, is infinitesimal, so I don't think you have much to worry about on that front. Thankfully, my children have not been taught that the human body is "disgusting" and that catching a glimpse of it, in any possible context, should be viewed as embarrassing. That kind of thought process produces low-self-esteem and self-worth in girls, and in boys it perpetuates the notion that women are sexual objects whose bodies are for their sexual use. Your father's prejudices and biases have apparently been passed down to you, and are now being passed on to your children. You have a chance to stop that, but I somehow doubt you will.

Jennifer (aka "The Wife")
[Post New]02/06/2011 08:30
Anonymous
I've been following this entire situation closely, and please let me make a few suggestions. First, let me introduce myself so that you may have a bit more understanding of my history and experience that gets me to these conclusions; my name is Shelli Zink, I'm a board member of the national non-profit FirstRight which was formed through the efforts of the Applebee's Incident in support of families discriminated against while breastfeeding in public.

I understand and empathize with the desire to Do Something. That's how FR was born. But a "nurse-in" at this point is not the best idea. It's simply a language issue. Those of you still in support of it are saying it's not a protest, it's a chance to educate and inform, but there's a key point here: the etymology of the word nurse-in is derived from a sit-in, ie. a peaceful protest (two different dictionaries define sit-in as:
a method of protesting the policy of a government, business, etc., in which demonstrators sit in, and refuse to leave, a public place, thus blocking traffic, disrupting operations, etc.; An organized protest demonstration in which participants seat themselves in an appropriate place and refuse to move). It inherently evokes feelings of negativity and protest and has traditionally been used that way. We have had in the past events called nurse-outs which helped negate that emotion some, but I would suggest an effort to organize a "Breastfeeding Awareness Day" that focuses on the aspects of normalizing breastfeeding and why women feeling safe and protected in public breastfeeding is so important to the health and well-being of children and removing all mention of the word "nurse-in". The Hirshhorn has stated they are looking forward to participating in an event, so use that. It's a great venue with all the nude art (and are there any breastfeeding pieces in the museum?), make that work for you, contact the press with releases to get some awareness, but don't use that word, and also make sure you have the original mother's permission and endorsement if you plan to use her name at all. Anyway, I hope that this has been helpful, and I'm glad that there are still so many passionate people out there, if we work together we can change the world.

-Shelli Zink
Advisory Board, FirstRight
[Post New]02/06/2011 09:12
Anonymous
Shelli, that is a far more sane & sensible approach IMHO. I hate to say it but Jennifer, on the other hand, despite her efforts to sound otherwise, sounds somewhat, well, unhinged.
[Post New]02/06/2011 09:24
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:Keep on keepin on people.

But I won't be there. And I wish you didn't speak for me as a breastfeeding mom.


so just don't NIP and you'll be OK nobody will know you BF then
[Post New]02/06/2011 09:27
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
TheWife wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Keep on keepin on people.

But I won't be there. And I wish you didn't speak for me as a breastfeeding mom.


Don't worry -- I don't. I will speak for those that want an end to discrimination, who want to ensure the rights of breastfeeding moms, who want to be able to peacefully feed their children without fear that they will be criticized, ostracized, condemned or attacked. Especially not by other moms who *claim* to be supportive, but refuse to stand up for the rights of others.

Jennifer (aka "The Wife")


::eye roll:: Smug posts like this are why people don't like breastfeeding activists. I don't have a problem with a nurse-in; it just seems overblown, ridiculous and disruptive when the museum has already apologized and there's already a federal law in place.

What's the opposite of a nurse-in? A bottle-in? Anyone up for bottle-feeding their babies at the Hirshorn?


If the law and apology were the only thing necessaries episodes like this would never happen again but we know this is not true.
[Post New]02/06/2011 09:36
Anonymous
This is what I always find so strange about this country. You will fightto the death to protect eachothers right to view naked pictures, but call feeding children "disgusting".

[Post New]02/06/2011 09:38
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:...I would suggest an effort to organize a "Breastfeeding Awareness Day" that focuses on the aspects of normalizing breastfeeding and why women feeling safe and protected in public breastfeeding is so important to the health and well-being of children and removing all mention of the word "nurse-in". The Hirshhorn has stated they are looking forward to participating in an event, so use that. It's a great venue with all the nude art (and are there any breastfeeding pieces in the museum?), make that work for you, contact the press with releases to get some awareness, but don't use that word, and also make sure you have the original mother's permission and endorsement if you plan to use her name at all. Anyway, I hope that this has been helpful, and I'm glad that there are still so many passionate people out there, if we work together we can change the world.

-Shelli Zink
Advisory Board, FirstRight


Great ideas! You could also consider how to link this to the Surgeon General's Call to Action to Support Breastfeeding (http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/topics/breastfeeding/index.html) - from the press release: “I believe that we as a nation are beginning to see a shift in how we think and talk about breastfeeding,” said Dr. Benjamin. “With this ‘Call to Action,’ I am urging everyone to help make breastfeeding easier.”

I'll be out of town next weekend but I love this idea and I would absolutely be there with my BF baby. Best of luck!
[Post New]02/06/2011 09:47
Anonymous
hey 01:18, you still have the right to look away remember that.
[Post New]02/06/2011 10:15
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:

Your husband has to say these thing but you shouldn't trust him because you have been confrontational, rude and insulting, not to mention boring, and that may be the most offensive. When I take my 15 yr. old son and my 10 yr. old son out, not to mention my69 yr. old father to a restaurant, movie, church, or anywhere in public, they do need, nor do they want, to see women baring their breasts and nursing. Maybe your are discreet but you are one of the very few. My father could not believe his eyes. Your rights end where mine begin. The rights of breast feeding mothers end where the public's rights begin. It is disgusting to watch women Bf on Metro, on a park bench, in a museum. One of you zealots, in another thread, said she would plop out her boob in front of the President and nurse, None of you has a sense of public decorum. I saw a woman hike up her sweater (she was wearng no bra, and plop baby on breast. I was furuous with her. My children and my father were beyond embarrased. What makes you think that your rights supercede those of my children? They do not.

I do hope that sanity will prevail and these laws allowing women to breast feed anywhere they wish in public will be repealed and another law enacted that they may breast feed in public but must cover breast and cannot breast feed in museums, restaurants, movies, or park benches.


This is exactly why this subject attracts so much debate and why some people get so "obnoxious" about it (and let me be clear that the nurse-in, as proposed, is far from obnoxious). You talk about your rights to NOT be exposed to something, as if that's the basis of how rights are granted and protected in this country. It isn't. Laws protecting freedoms and rights aren't usually put in place to protect the majority. We wouldn't have civil rights laws if that were the case. Does a racist have a right to be offended by black people? Absolutely. Do they have a right to force a black person to sit at the back of the bus, or use a separate entrance so that they don't have to expose their children to their presence? Absolutely not. At least, not anymore. You do not have the right to decide that a woman may not breastfeed in public because it offends you. You do, however, have the right to turn away and even to cover the eyes of your 15 year old son. I ask you to consider what kind of message that is passing on, however.

My mother did not breastfeed me because, as she tells me, she was too embarrassed. I come from a very conservative family and was never exposed to breastfeeding growing up. When my wife began breastfeeding and was unable to be discrete (partially due to the fact that our son would not nurse while covered up and partially due to the size of my wife's breasts, which are pretty hard not to expose, at least partially), I was embarrassed at first. I got over it. Then when my parents came to visit, I was really embarrassed around my very conservative father, but then he got over it. As my wife told me, breastfeeding is hard enough to keep up with without the additional complication of worrying about what others think.

And yet, go to just about any other country on the planet and you will find not only a much higher rate of breastfeeding, but also a society that doesn't get offended by it. Breastfeeding in restaurants, movies, park benches, etc. is just normal. There is absolutely a correlation between the amount of women willing to breastfeed and the level of acceptance granted by society. Yes, breastfeeding is difficult enough without mothers having to worry about what your father and 15-year old son think about it.

This is why people are passionate about the issue. It isn't just about the law. As long as there are people in society who are offended by breastfeeding (and I think they are a minority at this point, based on the amount of positive feedback my wife gets when she is breastfeeding in public), then incidents like what happened at the Hirshhorn will continue, despite laws to the contrary. And so long as there are people who make women feel ashamed about it, there will be women who won't breastfeed at all. I support every woman's choice whether or not to breastfeed, but I don't want that choice to be made because she feels too embarrassed to do it in public.
[Post New]02/06/2011 10:21
TheWife
Member Offline
Anonymous wrote:I've been following this entire situation closely, and please let me make a few suggestions. First, let me introduce myself so that you may have a bit more understanding of my history and experience that gets me to these conclusions; my name is Shelli Zink, I'm a board member of the national non-profit FirstRight which was formed through the efforts of the Applebee's Incident in support of families discriminated against while breastfeeding in public.

I understand and empathize with the desire to Do Something. That's how FR was born. But a "nurse-in" at this point is not the best idea. It's simply a language issue. Those of you still in support of it are saying it's not a protest, it's a chance to educate and inform, but there's a key point here: the etymology of the word nurse-in is derived from a sit-in, ie. a peaceful protest (two different dictionaries define sit-in as:
a method of protesting the policy of a government, business, etc., in which demonstrators sit in, and refuse to leave, a public place, thus blocking traffic, disrupting operations, etc.; An organized protest demonstration in which participants seat themselves in an appropriate place and refuse to move). It inherently evokes feelings of negativity and protest and has traditionally been used that way. We have had in the past events called nurse-outs which helped negate that emotion some, but I would suggest an effort to organize a "Breastfeeding Awareness Day" that focuses on the aspects of normalizing breastfeeding and why women feeling safe and protected in public breastfeeding is so important to the health and well-being of children and removing all mention of the word "nurse-in". The Hirshhorn has stated they are looking forward to participating in an event, so use that. It's a great venue with all the nude art (and are there any breastfeeding pieces in the museum?), make that work for you, contact the press with releases to get some awareness, but don't use that word, and also make sure you have the original mother's permission and endorsement if you plan to use her name at all. Anyway, I hope that this has been helpful, and I'm glad that there are still so many passionate people out there, if we work together we can change the world.

-Shelli Zink
Advisory Board, FirstRight


Your suggestions are well thought out and very useful -- and your suggestions are already being implemented (appropriate contact with the press, having the original mother's permission, focusing on "normalizing" breastfeeding and that they should feel safe and protected in public -- the intent of the cards is just that). A "Breastfeeding Awareness Day" is a great idea and there is absolutely no reason that should not be implemented. Whether that should take the place of a specific organized event in response to a specific occurrence is incidental, though, as the two may share a common purpose but they have a different impact. The only thing I can't really do is take your suggestion to change the name. Because, while it may evoke images of a protest, it is also a commonly recognized term at this point, one that people understand, and one that has entered into the common lexicon. As I'm sure you've found, calling them "nurse-outs" hasn't effected the usage of the term, and we've got to work with what we have. So, while it's not ideal, we work within the bounds of what the average person understands. And let's be very honest here -- no matter what we call it, there are people (as evidenced here), who will still believe that no response is warranted simply because an apology has been made. Any steps taken beyond that point are "too much" to someone with that mindset.

Jennifer (aka "The Wife")
[Post New]02/06/2011 10:31
TheWife
Member Offline
Anonymous wrote:When my wife began breastfeeding and was unable to be discrete (partially due to the fact that our son would not nurse while covered up and partially due to the size of my wife's breasts, which are pretty hard not to expose, at least partially), I was embarrassed at first. I got over it. Then when my parents came to visit, I was really embarrassed around my very conservative father, but then he got over it. As my wife told me, breastfeeding is hard enough to keep up with without the additional complication of worrying about what others think.


Being... um... somewhat largely endowed (DD/EEE) I can completely relate to your wife's difficulties. I was able to get around that by paying zero attention to fashion and only wearing rather large t-shirts. I may have been able to qualify for "What Not To Wear," but I was comfortable, and the shirt sort of acts as a natural cover -- for the mother, not the baby. So it was rather ideal.

My Father-In-Law was much like you, very uncomfortable with it at first. But he never, ever, said a word of censure to me (he's just an awesome man), and by a few months after my daughter was born it was a non-issue. He didn't even blink at me tandem nursing, at least not in front of me. If he did behind my back, he had enough tact and understanding to never let on. Intelligent people are able to adapt and change with the times, able to understand that just because something is different than what they're used to doesn't make it "wrong." My Father-In-Law also grew up in a household where salt and pepper were "exotic" seasonings. Now he loves spicy foods. Had he kept the mindset of "it makes me uncomfortable, therefore it's wrong" he might be a bit thinner but life would be a lot less enjoyable and a lot more limited.

Jennifer (aka "The Wife")
[Post New]02/06/2011 10:32
TheWife
Member Offline
Anonymous wrote:Shelli, that is a far more sane & sensible approach IMHO. I hate to say it but Jennifer, on the other hand, despite her efforts to sound otherwise, sounds somewhat, well, unhinged.


*sniff, sniff* Now my widdle feewings are hurt.

Jennifer (aka "The Wife")
[Post New]02/06/2011 10:56
Anonymous
TheWife wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Shelli, that is a far more sane & sensible approach IMHO. I hate to say it but Jennifer, on the other hand, despite her efforts to sound otherwise, sounds somewhat, well, unhinged.


*sniff, sniff* Now my widdle feewings are hurt.

Jennifer (aka "The Wife")


i agree.
[Post New]02/06/2011 10:59
Anonymous
Mothers do not breastfeed for their entire lives. It is a period of our lives when we breastfeed and then it is over. What is so hard about dealing with the inconveniences involved in being discreet during those times in the day when we nurse, during those few years? It's not like losing an arm or a leg. Really not hard for most people's psyche to bear.
[Post New]02/06/2011 11:10
Anonymous
The majority of the public isn't breastfeeding so we, the majority, should rule. We want women to use discretion, cover your breast, is that so difficult?
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