Anonymous wrote:

shan1212 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

An ironic end would be Sonya Larson, depressed and desperate for penance and public rehabilitation ... decides to donate a kidney!

Hahahahaha.

That may be the only thing she could do to right this ship at this point! I would laugh, but I would also clap for the person getting their new kidney!

It would be a perfect O Henry ending to all this. Then Dawn can write a beautiful, compassionate novel about it.

Anonymous wrote:Tangential, but I find Helen Rosner’s reaction to this odd. I know Helen from a college activity and Helen played more of the Dawn role there. It was a competitive oddly hierarchical activity where competitive success created social cache, but obviously lots of other factors played into one’s social standing as well; probably not unlike these writer’s cliques. Anyway, Helen wasn’t as competitively successful as she probably would have liked, wasn’t at an “in” school, wasn’t conventionally attractive and could be sort off putting (sometimes seemingly intentionally so, but then she also seemed to care what people thought and I later heard that she, in fact, had been somewhat hurt by it all). I actually felt kind of bad about it at the time, but didn’t know her that well and was sort of in a weird position vis a vis her for reasons that aren’t super relevant.

Anyway, she moved to NYC at graduation and some of the Sonyas, who moved at the same time, became really good friends of hers, because it turned out that outside of the weird strictures of the activity, they really liked her. They also totally did right by her with respect to friends who still thought of her as a Dawn; always invited her to things, explained to everyone visiting NYC that they were good friends now, etc. I never moved to NYC so that group has never been or become my main friend set and I’ve never gotten to know her really well, but we see each other occasionally, have vacationed together with mutual friends, etc and we have a few close mutual friends in common even now (almost 20 years post college).

By all accounts, she’s great. She’s obviously become quite successful and I, personally, think she’s a fabulous writer. But, she’s still a little bit Dawn when I think of her — because that’s how I first knew her — and even though that’s very much not who she is now, I’m surprised she has so little empathy for actual Dawn. I wonder if her own version of events is totally different or if not empathizing is some sort of defense mechanism.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tangential, but I find Helen Rosner’s reaction to this odd. I know Helen from a college activity and Helen played more of the Dawn role there. It was a competitive oddly hierarchical activity where competitive success created social cache, but obviously lots of other factors played into one’s social standing as well; probably not unlike these writer’s cliques. Anyway, Helen wasn’t as competitively successful as she probably would have liked, wasn’t at an “in” school, wasn’t conventionally attractive and could be sort off putting (sometimes seemingly intentionally so, but then she also seemed to care what people thought and I later heard that she, in fact, had been somewhat hurt by it all). I actually felt kind of bad about it at the time, but didn’t know her that well and was sort of in a weird position vis a vis her for reasons that aren’t super relevant.

Anyway, she moved to NYC at graduation and some of the Sonyas, who moved at the same time, became really good friends of hers, because it turned out that outside of the weird strictures of the activity, they really liked her. They also totally did right by her with respect to friends who still thought of her as a Dawn; always invited her to things, explained to everyone visiting NYC that they were good friends now, etc. I never moved to NYC so that group has never been or become my main friend set and I’ve never gotten to know her really well, but we see each other occasionally, have vacationed together with mutual friends, etc and we have a few close mutual friends in common even now (almost 20 years post college).

By all accounts, she’s great. She’s obviously become quite successful and I, personally, think she’s a fabulous writer. But, she’s still a little bit Dawn when I think of her — because that’s how I first knew her — and even though that’s very much not who she is now, I’m surprised she has so little empathy for actual Dawn. I wonder if her own version of events is totally different or if not empathizing is some sort of defense mechanism.

wow, you've spent a lot of time thinking about her, huh

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tangential, but I find Helen Rosner’s reaction to this odd. I know Helen from a college activity and Helen played more of the Dawn role there. It was a competitive oddly hierarchical activity where competitive success created social cache, but obviously lots of other factors played into one’s social standing as well; probably not unlike these writer’s cliques. Anyway, Helen wasn’t as competitively successful as she probably would have liked, wasn’t at an “in” school, wasn’t conventionally attractive and could be sort off putting (sometimes seemingly intentionally so, but then she also seemed to care what people thought and I later heard that she, in fact, had been somewhat hurt by it all). I actually felt kind of bad about it at the time, but didn’t know her that well and was sort of in a weird position vis a vis her for reasons that aren’t super relevant.

Anyway, she moved to NYC at graduation and some of the Sonyas, who moved at the same time, became really good friends of hers, because it turned out that outside of the weird strictures of the activity, they really liked her. They also totally did right by her with respect to friends who still thought of her as a Dawn; always invited her to things, explained to everyone visiting NYC that they were good friends now, etc. I never moved to NYC so that group has never been or become my main friend set and I’ve never gotten to know her really well, but we see each other occasionally, have vacationed together with mutual friends, etc and we have a few close mutual friends in common even now (almost 20 years post college).

By all accounts, she’s great. She’s obviously become quite successful and I, personally, think she’s a fabulous writer. But, she’s still a little bit Dawn when I think of her — because that’s how I first knew her — and even though that’s very much not who she is now, I’m surprised she has so little empathy for actual Dawn. I wonder if her own version of events is totally different or if not empathizing is some sort of defense mechanism.

wow, you've spent a lot of time thinking about her, huh

DP. I missed that post originally but I think it's really interesting. Backstory is always fascinating.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was appalled when I heard about this story and sided with Dawn, but damn when I read her posts about her donation my eyes roll back so far in my head it hurts.

I would have had a very hard time not being sarcastic to her. Maybe my problem is I know too many women who do charity for attention. One message she sent to Sonya she talked about attending a charity function with Jayne Seymore and being so proud that the doctor who took her kidney mentioned her kidney "just gushing urine". Ugh.

I would have stopped talking to her and avoided her but I know I would have made comments to a mutual friend about her. In any group I've been in there would be at least one adult who would shut the nastiness down so we would only go on so long.

No one in that group admitted that they were the ones doing the stalking. What an empty echo chamber they were.

commenting on your donated kidney "gushing urine" is basically the equivalent of commenting on your baby's cuteness or first smile or first steps. it's what a kidney is supposed to do! it's the whole point of a kidney!

OK, stick to what you know. I have kidney disease and often my kidneys don’t work and won’t “gush urine.”

DP. The point is that Dorland's healthy kidney did and she was told that by a doctor.

If I’m not mistaken, she was saying her kidney was working in the recipient. Which is a big deal. Organs are often rejected.

Right, that's pretty exciting.

Segue: I know that Dorland is a mother, because there was some reference to her running into Chip Chunk at a baby music activity in LA, right. Is Sonya a mom? No diss, but I became a person with better things to do (than write stories to make fun of my frenemy, chat endlessly with my friends about my frenemy) after I had a kid. And listen, I DO NOT think mothers are sainted. It's just that moms don't have as much time, LOL.

It sounds like Sonya recently became a mother. I don't know how old she is, maybe forty? Her behavior has continued to be incredibly childish and self-centered. I'm not sure I'm holding out much hope.

I graduated from one of the elite MFAs. There was less backbiting because we were all well-funded and only person I would have identified as a "mean girl." However, she was a mother with two kids.

Anonymous wrote:Oh great, now Lithub is weighing in today and doubling down on the white woman tears. I seriously want to burn down the entire mainstream literary establishment right now. I will go out of my way to tell everyone I know to stop buying their books. So, is it fine for a POC to plagiarize a white woman? It seems a resounding YES. The only issue here is that Dawn didn't quietly oblige.

An excerpt:

"For me, Dorland’s claims conjure memories of white women abusing the legal system to protect their own privilege. As one scholar observed, history contains endless examples of white women weaponizing their tears and feminine fragility. We know some white women abuse the criminal justice system to threaten and intimidate people of color. But we often forget the history of white women abusing the civil system to achieve equally as pernicious ends. Scholars have studied this issue, with interesting research interrogating white women’s allegations of intentional infliction of emotional distress.

Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress (IIED) is a civil claim that provides compensation for the intentional infliction, by extreme and outrageous conduct, of severe emotional distress. In these claims, plaintiffs, like Dorland, must prove that the defendant’s conduct “goes beyond all possible bounds of decency, and is regarded as atrocious, and utterly intolerable in a civilized community.”"

https://lithub.com/dorland-v-larson-on-the-legal-disputes-at-the-heart-of-bad-art-friend/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the court documents were public, how/why did Kolker miss what really happened?

I have wondered the same thing myself. Perhaps he was part of the same literary scene and so took Larson's description as fact, and did not fact check? But then again, I don't think anything he said was overtly untrue, it's just laid out in a way that significantly distorts the truth. I don't know, in other words. But I have wondered.

LOL I thought this board was full of lawyers, not writers. Lawyers of all people should know that court records are fascinating and helpful, but they are never a whole story, and they do not capture emotion, nuance or context. And plenty of court filings are, by design, meant to distort.

Dawn did not communicate with SL for years, even as SL remained focused on her. SL's text exchanges with her bullying clique speak for themselves. They aren't even artful or nuance, just mean as hell.

My impression is that Dawn was reaching out to SL's employers, schools, publishers, etc during some of that period... Isn't that why she's coming up on the text exchanges?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh great, now Lithub is weighing in today and doubling down on the white woman tears. I seriously want to burn down the entire mainstream literary establishment right now. I will go out of my way to tell everyone I know to stop buying their books. So, is it fine for a POC to plagiarize a white woman? It seems a resounding YES. The only issue here is that Dawn didn't quietly oblige.

An excerpt:

"For me, Dorland’s claims conjure memories of white women abusing the legal system to protect their own privilege. As one scholar observed, history contains endless examples of white women weaponizing their tears and feminine fragility. We know some white women abuse the criminal justice system to threaten and intimidate people of color. But we often forget the history of white women abusing the civil system to achieve equally as pernicious ends. Scholars have studied this issue, with interesting research interrogating white women’s allegations of intentional infliction of emotional distress.

Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress (IIED) is a civil claim that provides compensation for the intentional infliction, by extreme and outrageous conduct, of severe emotional distress. In these claims, plaintiffs, like Dorland, must prove that the defendant’s conduct “goes beyond all possible bounds of decency, and is regarded as atrocious, and utterly intolerable in a civilized community.”"

https://lithub.com/dorland-v-larson-on-the-legal-disputes-at-the-heart-of-bad-art-friend/

.

I would not have expected otherwise. LitHub is one of the voices of the literary establishment.

If LitHub does not find this to be an issue of race, it then has to turn a harsh and critical lens on its core audience and supporters, and they just aren't going to do that. It is better for LitHub to throw up a flimsy explanation that everyone sees for the sham it is than criticize LitHub's audience. It was the white Chunky Monkeys who pushed for that narrative, and many POC are angry about that, but LitHub caters to a small, mostly white, literary establishment audience and that's who this is written for.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh great, now Lithub is weighing in today and doubling down on the white woman tears. I seriously want to burn down the entire mainstream literary establishment right now. I will go out of my way to tell everyone I know to stop buying their books. So, is it fine for a POC to plagiarize a white woman? It seems a resounding YES. The only issue here is that Dawn didn't quietly oblige.

An excerpt:

"For me, Dorland’s claims conjure memories of white women abusing the legal system to protect their own privilege. As one scholar observed, history contains endless examples of white women weaponizing their tears and feminine fragility. We know some white women abuse the criminal justice system to threaten and intimidate people of color. But we often forget the history of white women abusing the civil system to achieve equally as pernicious ends. Scholars have studied this issue, with interesting research interrogating white women’s allegations of intentional infliction of emotional distress.

Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress (IIED) is a civil claim that provides compensation for the intentional infliction, by extreme and outrageous conduct, of severe emotional distress. In these claims, plaintiffs, like Dorland, must prove that the defendant’s conduct “goes beyond all possible bounds of decency, and is regarded as atrocious, and utterly intolerable in a civilized community.”"

https://lithub.com/dorland-v-larson-on-the-legal-disputes-at-the-heart-of-bad-art-friend/

Why didn’t he just name-drop Emmitt Till? You know, for “context.”

Anonymous wrote:Aside: I had never heard of Chip Flunk, but I looked him up and read about his $800K advance novel, "Cape May." It's about a young and innocent Georgia couple who meet an older, sophisticated couple while honeymooning in NJ. I don't know why I like this premise, maybe because it sounds messy!! And involves emasculation, probably. I'm going to hold myself back from paying money for it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh great, now Lithub is weighing in today and doubling down on the white woman tears. I seriously want to burn down the entire mainstream literary establishment right now. I will go out of my way to tell everyone I know to stop buying their books. So, is it fine for a POC to plagiarize a white woman? It seems a resounding YES. The only issue here is that Dawn didn't quietly oblige.

An excerpt:

"For me, Dorland’s claims conjure memories of white women abusing the legal system to protect their own privilege. As one scholar observed, history contains endless examples of white women weaponizing their tears and feminine fragility. We know some white women abuse the criminal justice system to threaten and intimidate people of color. But we often forget the history of white women abusing the civil system to achieve equally as pernicious ends. Scholars have studied this issue, with interesting research interrogating white women’s allegations of intentional infliction of emotional distress.

Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress (IIED) is a civil claim that provides compensation for the intentional infliction, by extreme and outrageous conduct, of severe emotional distress. In these claims, plaintiffs, like Dorland, must prove that the defendant’s conduct “goes beyond all possible bounds of decency, and is regarded as atrocious, and utterly intolerable in a civilized community.”"

https://lithub.com/dorland-v-larson-on-the-legal-disputes-at-the-heart-of-bad-art-friend/

Why didn’t he just name-drop Emmitt Till? You know, for “context.”

This man is a clown. Sonya made claims in her lawsuit that conflict has caused her distress, sleepless nights, weight loss, etc. Is she enacting feminine fragility in order to achieve her ends too? Maybe Dorland's claims don't meet the legal threshold for IIED; that doesn't mean they were malicious.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aside: I had never heard of Chip Flunk, but I looked him up and read about his $800K advance novel, "Cape May." It's about a young and innocent Georgia couple who meet an older, sophisticated couple while honeymooning in NJ. I don't know why I like this premise, maybe because it sounds messy!! And involves emasculation, probably. I'm going to hold myself back from paying money for it.

Hi Chip! We’re not sad that no one cared about your book

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aside: I had never heard of Chip Flunk, but I looked him up and read about his $800K advance novel, "Cape May." It's about a young and innocent Georgia couple who meet an older, sophisticated couple while honeymooning in NJ. I don't know why I like this premise, maybe because it sounds messy!! And involves emasculation, probably. I'm going to hold myself back from paying money for it.

Hi Chip! We’re not sad that no one cared about your book

Ha ha! Srsly. This book was a flop and mocked on Twittet's Men Writing Women.

Anonymous wrote:

I read the NYT article first, without reading anything else prior, and I came out of it Team Dorland, with maybe some reservations, as in: "unless there's some info missing, I'm on Dawn's side."

So I think there was enough there, because I wasn't predisposed, though I might have biases.

THEN, I read all the other stuff and I was like, holy hell, what upside-down hell are we living in, that Sonya Effing Larson is treated as a victim when she 1) plagiarized and 2) was a horrible human being? I went from Team Dorland with reservations to Team Dorland and mad as hell.