TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

Kids should not have doors closed to them based on their math performance in 5th grade. There is a lot that can happen between 5th and 8th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still not sure why Geometry or higher in 8th isn't a requirement for FCPS applicants to TJ. In the 2022-2023 testing cycle, FCPS had 1453 8th graders pass the Geometry SOL and another 210 the Algebra II SOL. Among these kids, 137 URMs passed the Geo SOL and 16 URMs passed Algebra II. 98 Disadvantaged 8th graders passed the Geometry SOL, and 11 disadvantaged kids passed the Algebra II one. Almost every middle school had 10+ kids at least in geometry, with the exception of 2 or so schools that are not AAP centers or LLIVs.

They could fill the 350 or so FCPS TJ slots 4-5 times over with the kids who are at least in Geometry in 8th, while still getting adequate racial, economic, and geographic diversity.

*yes, I know there's always some exception to the rule. So, there could be some exemption form where the very rare and extreme cases could have the Geo requirement waived. But, these cases should be pretty rare.

Why create these obstacles though? There are plenty of super smart kids who may not have taken geometry by 8th who might benefit from TJ too.

Because they want to hoard opportunities for wealthier kids.

There are only around 350 TJ slots for FCPS kids. FCPS had 143 8th grade URMs pass the Geo or Algebra II SOL. They had 109 disadvantaged kids pass Geo or Algebra II. The least wealthy AAP centers still had over 40 kids on the Algebra-in-7th track. There are more than enough poor kids who would qualify for TJ even if Geometry were required.

It’s an unnecessary barrier.

Expecting kids to be good at math rather than slightly above average at math is an "unnecessary barrier?"

Kids who take Algebra in 8th can be good at math.

Yes, it’s an unnecessary barrier that limits who can apply. It makes TJ a prize for the few lucky kids instead of a learning resource for many qualified kids who are interested in STEM.

Agreed, there are a ton of barriers that people just don't recognize. I have no doubt that talented kids opt out of applying to TJ and opt out of the too math track. That will also be more common among the well adjusted ones that don't have tiger parents. I think we should make the TJ test mandatory for all kids with a 3.5GPA. Everyone gets a shot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still not sure why Geometry or higher in 8th isn't a requirement for FCPS applicants to TJ. In the 2022-2023 testing cycle, FCPS had 1453 8th graders pass the Geometry SOL and another 210 the Algebra II SOL. Among these kids, 137 URMs passed the Geo SOL and 16 URMs passed Algebra II. 98 Disadvantaged 8th graders passed the Geometry SOL, and 11 disadvantaged kids passed the Algebra II one. Almost every middle school had 10+ kids at least in geometry, with the exception of 2 or so schools that are not AAP centers or LLIVs.

They could fill the 350 or so FCPS TJ slots 4-5 times over with the kids who are at least in Geometry in 8th, while still getting adequate racial, economic, and geographic diversity.

*yes, I know there's always some exception to the rule. So, there could be some exemption form where the very rare and extreme cases could have the Geo requirement waived. But, these cases should be pretty rare.

Why create these obstacles though? There are plenty of super smart kids who may not have taken geometry by 8th who might benefit from TJ too.

Because they want to hoard opportunities for wealthier kids.

There are only around 350 TJ slots for FCPS kids. FCPS had 143 8th grade URMs pass the Geo or Algebra II SOL. They had 109 disadvantaged kids pass Geo or Algebra II. The least wealthy AAP centers still had over 40 kids on the Algebra-in-7th track. There are more than enough poor kids who would qualify for TJ even if Geometry were required.

It’s an unnecessary barrier.

Expecting kids to be good at math rather than slightly above average at math is an "unnecessary barrier?"

Kids who take Algebra in 8th can be good at math.

Yes, it’s an unnecessary barrier that limits who can apply. It makes TJ a prize for the few lucky kids instead of a learning resource for many qualified kids who are interested in STEM.

Agreed, there are a ton of barriers that people just don't recognize. I have no doubt that talented kids opt out of applying to TJ and opt out of the too math track. That will also be more common among the well adjusted ones that don't have tiger parents. I think we should make the TJ test mandatory for all kids with a 3.5GPA. Everyone gets a shot.

Then the prep centers will start offering advanced copies for those who can afford them all over again. Gving an edge to those with means.

[Anonymous]

Teachers give lots of tests and provide recommendations in the form of grades. This is sufficient.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Teachers give lots of tests and provide recommendations in the form of grades. This is sufficient.

There is rampant grade inflation, which is increasingly making GPA meaningless. And teachers can be inspired by a student's potential, more than by their current performance, and write a positive recommendation. An objective, standardized test that is not graded by the teacher/school is the way to measure content knowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers give lots of tests and provide recommendations in the form of grades. This is sufficient.

There is rampant grade inflation, which is increasingly making GPA meaningless. And teachers can be inspired by a student's potential, more than by their current performance, and write a positive recommendation. An objective, standardized test that is not graded by the teacher/school is the way to measure content knowledge.

There are many threads here stating otherwise. GPA is still the primary factor that colleges consider for admission and is far more reliable than a test which wealthy students buy advanced access to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

You must not understand how education works these days. Due to retake policies, late work policies, pressure from administration, and pressure from parents, teachers are forced to hand out a lot of As to kids that they would consider mediocre. Seriously, talk to any middle or high school teacher about their students.

Also, the inability to distinguish between a 4.0 student who is an academic superstar and a 4.0 student who is slightly above average is a feature and not a bug in TJ admissions. For AAP, teacher ratings carry the most weight by far. For 10th and 11th grade TJ admissions, teacher recommendations carry a ton of weight. Regular TJ admissions is oddly the only case where FCPS doesn't want to hear what the teachers have to say. Teachers could easily differentiate between the top notch kid with an A and the pretty average kid who did the retakes and whatever else to get a watered down A.

Asking MORE subjectivity might not be fitting the interests of merit. FCPS teachers are frequently racist and many resent asian kids being so successful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still not sure why Geometry or higher in 8th isn't a requirement for FCPS applicants to TJ. In the 2022-2023 testing cycle, FCPS had 1453 8th graders pass the Geometry SOL and another 210 the Algebra II SOL. Among these kids, 137 URMs passed the Geo SOL and 16 URMs passed Algebra II. 98 Disadvantaged 8th graders passed the Geometry SOL, and 11 disadvantaged kids passed the Algebra II one. Almost every middle school had 10+ kids at least in geometry, with the exception of 2 or so schools that are not AAP centers or LLIVs.

They could fill the 350 or so FCPS TJ slots 4-5 times over with the kids who are at least in Geometry in 8th, while still getting adequate racial, economic, and geographic diversity.

*yes, I know there's always some exception to the rule. So, there could be some exemption form where the very rare and extreme cases could have the Geo requirement waived. But, these cases should be pretty rare.

Why create these obstacles though? There are plenty of super smart kids who may not have taken geometry by 8th who might benefit from TJ too.

Every filter will filter it kid you would like to filter in and filters in some kids you would like to filter out.

Test scores filter out some kids who "don't test will" (and this is MUCH less common than the parents of mediocre children would have you believe), but it will rarely filter in kids that don't belong. If you want to catch some of the kids missed by that first filter then use a holistic process to filter in kids that " didn't test will"

But realize there are ways to measure kids who don't test will and you're not going to like the kids it selects.

Ultimately, kids that have put in the work will tend to outperform kid who haven't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Right. TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

How the heck do you read that and come away with the conclusion that you do? You're making your side of the argument look intellectually dishonest or intellectually deficient.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still not sure why Geometry or higher in 8th isn't a requirement for FCPS applicants to TJ. In the 2022-2023 testing cycle, FCPS had 1453 8th graders pass the Geometry SOL and another 210 the Algebra II SOL. Among these kids, 137 URMs passed the Geo SOL and 16 URMs passed Algebra II. 98 Disadvantaged 8th graders passed the Geometry SOL, and 11 disadvantaged kids passed the Algebra II one. Almost every middle school had 10+ kids at least in geometry, with the exception of 2 or so schools that are not AAP centers or LLIVs.

They could fill the 350 or so FCPS TJ slots 4-5 times over with the kids who are at least in Geometry in 8th, while still getting adequate racial, economic, and geographic diversity.

*yes, I know there's always some exception to the rule. So, there could be some exemption form where the very rare and extreme cases could have the Geo requirement waived. But, these cases should be pretty rare.

Why create these obstacles though? There are plenty of super smart kids who may not have taken geometry by 8th who might benefit from TJ too.

Because they want to hoard opportunities for wealthier kids.

There are only around 350 TJ slots for FCPS kids. FCPS had 143 8th grade URMs pass the Geo or Algebra II SOL. They had 109 disadvantaged kids pass Geo or Algebra II. The least wealthy AAP centers still had over 40 kids on the Algebra-in-7th track. There are more than enough poor kids who would qualify for TJ even if Geometry were required.

It’s an unnecessary barrier.

Expecting kids to be good at math rather than slightly above average at math is an "unnecessary barrier?"

Kids who take Algebra in 8th can be good at math.

This is the exception rather than the rule and as mentioned earlier, you can make exceptions for the exceptions.

Yes, it’s an unnecessary barrier that limits who can apply. It makes TJ a prize for the few lucky kids instead of a learning resource for many qualified kids who are interested in STEM.

"Lucky few" vs "many qualified kids"?

There is no difference in the number of kids getting in regardless of how much merit we inject into the admissions process

If we had a test to determine who deserved to get in without luck, we could ignore prerequisites entirely. But that world defeat the purpose of admissions "reform"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kids should not have doors closed to them based on their math performance in 5th grade. There is a lot that can happen between 5th and 8th grade.

Not really. Almost all kids that are bad at math in 5th grade remain bad at math in 8th grade. Not all kids that are good at math in 5th grade remain good at math in 8th grade.

These doors are not meant for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers give lots of tests and provide recommendations in the form of grades. This is sufficient.

There is rampant grade inflation, which is increasingly making GPA meaningless. And teachers can be inspired by a student's potential, more than by their current performance, and write a positive recommendation. An objective, standardized test that is not graded by the teacher/school is the way to measure content knowledge.

There are many threads here stating otherwise. GPA is still the primary factor that colleges consider for admission and is far more reliable than a test which wealthy students buy advanced access to.

No matter how many threads you start, the data is already in. The research has been done. The papers have been out reviewed. Test scores are the best determinants of future academic performance, at least in selective college settings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still not sure why Geometry or higher in 8th isn't a requirement for FCPS applicants to TJ. In the 2022-2023 testing cycle, FCPS had 1453 8th graders pass the Geometry SOL and another 210 the Algebra II SOL. Among these kids, 137 URMs passed the Geo SOL and 16 URMs passed Algebra II. 98 Disadvantaged 8th graders passed the Geometry SOL, and 11 disadvantaged kids passed the Algebra II one. Almost every middle school had 10+ kids at least in geometry, with the exception of 2 or so schools that are not AAP centers or LLIVs.

They could fill the 350 or so FCPS TJ slots 4-5 times over with the kids who are at least in Geometry in 8th, while still getting adequate racial, economic, and geographic diversity.

*yes, I know there's always some exception to the rule. So, there could be some exemption form where the very rare and extreme cases could have the Geo requirement waived. But, these cases should be pretty rare.

Why create these obstacles though? There are plenty of super smart kids who may not have taken geometry by 8th who might benefit from TJ too.

Because they want to hoard opportunities for wealthier kids.

There are only around 350 TJ slots for FCPS kids. FCPS had 143 8th grade URMs pass the Geo or Algebra II SOL. They had 109 disadvantaged kids pass Geo or Algebra II. The least wealthy AAP centers still had over 40 kids on the Algebra-in-7th track. There are more than enough poor kids who would qualify for TJ even if Geometry were required.

It’s an unnecessary barrier.

Expecting kids to be good at math rather than slightly above average at math is an "unnecessary barrier?"

Kids who take Algebra in 8th can be good at math.

Yes, it’s an unnecessary barrier that limits who can apply. It makes TJ a prize for the few lucky kids instead of a learning resource for many qualified kids who are interested in STEM.

Agreed, there are a ton of barriers that people just don't recognize. I have no doubt that talented kids opt out of applying to TJ and opt out of the too math track. That will also be more common among the well adjusted ones that don't have tiger parents. I think we should make the TJ test mandatory for all kids with a 3.5GPA. Everyone gets a shot.

As an example, in a recent year, twain had 20 students meet the objective test criteria to make it into the pool but did not get past the "holistic" review. NONE of those Twain kids made it past holistic review.

If you track the percentage of kids that meet the treat score requirement to get in the pool and the kids that make it through the holistic review to get it off the pool, the highest percentage success rate of getting out of the pool went to schools in the wealthier neighborhoods.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!