Those of you asking for differentiation in ES have unrealistic expectations

[Anonymous]

Like OP, I attended a very good public school system in New England in the 1990's, although I only attended for grades 4-8.

There was absolutely no differentiation in 4th or 5th grade. There may have been some remedial or special education stuff for kids who needed it, but nothing else.

In grades 6-8, there was differentiation only for math and for remedial English. If I recall correctly, we were divided into three levels for math, with two classes at each level. In 6th and 7th grade, there was no provision made for anyone who was ahead of the high level.

In 8th grade, I had a sympathetic math teacher who in my opinion provided as much differentiation as it is fair to expect in a public school setting. She let me sit in the back and work my way through the textbook on my own. She told me to come and tell her when I was done with each chapter, so that she could give me a test. If I did well on the test, I would keep going. When I finished the textbook for Algebra 1, she gave me Geometry and I just kept going. This only worked because she did not have to instruct me or give me any assignments or check my work. I assume her tests were pre-made or from the textbook company. I don't think it is reasonable to expect a teacher to instruct children individually in a public school. But an arrangement to work independently might be reasonable to request.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to an excellent public school system in New England, and we had no differentiation or G&T in elementary school. Honors classes (for a couple of subjects) started in middle school (7th grade), with expanded honors/AP options in high school. I graduated in 2002.

However, the parent population was pretty well educated and kept tabs on their kids. Not many behavioral issues or disruptions to distract the teachers. And class sizes were ~22 kids. Everyone was taught the same lesson though. I felt I received a good education (later went to HYP for undergrad)

I attended Fairfax county public school in the suburbs back in the 80s/90s and I could write your post word for word almost. Except I realize that what happened back then - a well educated English speaking populations homogenous school population - no longer exists so that would make my experience no longer relevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hmm, maybe there isn’t much differentiation needed when all of the students are more or less at the same level, in addition to having small class sizes.

In many APS elementary schools, students from all sorts of backgrounds are in classes together. There are bright kids, not-so-bright kids, kids living in poverty, kids from affluent homes, and kids that speak little to no English all in the same (overcrowded) classroom together. Of course many of them aren’t at the same reading and/or math levels.

Why is it wrong to want instruction based on the needs of each child?

It would be much better to separate classes into different levels, but nooooo... equity rules! (Even if that means limiting some students’ potential and growth. Gotta give all the teacher’s time and effort to the low performers!)

That is my point. In ES zones with low FARMs and ESOL rates, differentiation should not be needed. So go find those ES.

Oh, sure! Churchill Road has low FARMs and low ESOL. We also can’t afford a trailer home in the district, even if they would allow it. “Just have money” is not sound advice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hmm, maybe there isn’t much differentiation needed when all of the students are more or less at the same level, in addition to having small class sizes.

In many APS elementary schools, students from all sorts of backgrounds are in classes together. There are bright kids, not-so-bright kids, kids living in poverty, kids from affluent homes, and kids that speak little to no English all in the same (overcrowded) classroom together. Of course many of them aren’t at the same reading and/or math levels.

Why is it wrong to want instruction based on the needs of each child?

It would be much better to separate classes into different levels, but nooooo... equity rules! (Even if that means limiting some students’ potential and growth. Gotta give all the teacher’s time and effort to the low performers!)

That is my point. In ES zones with low FARMs and ESOL rates, differentiation should not be needed. So go find those ES.

Oh, sure! Churchill Road has low FARMs and low ESOL. We also can’t afford a trailer home in the district, even if they would allow it. “Just have money” is not sound advice.

Not to mention, there would be an all out siege on Gatehouse if they tried to do away with AAP at certain high income schools. Go tell the parents at Colvin Run they don't need to offer AAP or any other differentiation because it's a low FARM/ ESOL school. Report back.

[Anonymous]

Re: FCPS, we also had textbooks and wrote book reports and had a more uniform curriculum rather than teachers pay teachers or online resources.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I attended Fairfax county public school in the suburbs back in the 80s/90s and I could write your post word for word almost. Except I realize that what happened back then - a well educated English speaking populations homogenous school population - no longer exists so that would make my experience no longer relevant.

Exactly. Now, we have a bazaar instead of a well-educated, English speaking population with a common culture; and now FCPS is hyper-focused on pet political causes and avoiding offending anyone, and barely focused at all on actual academic achievement or enforcing basic discipline with the students.

The latest push by FCPS is to water-down the discipline of the already-unruly student population, by trying to "fix" so-called "disparate discipline" ... given that FCPS just "fixed" the problem of students in distance learning getting poor grades by inflating everyone's grade (problem solved!) you can imagine how they plan to "fix" the problem (as they've defined it) of "disparate discipline" of students, rather than, say, fix the problem of disparate misbehavior by certain students. This is not an idle concern. I had a 2nd grader at FCPS whose school experience was constantly interrupted and degraded by several misbehaving students in her class for the entire year -- nothing was done to effectively address it even after discussions with the teacher and principal. Another of my children, in middle school, was confronted by another student in the bathroom with a weapon. Meanwhile, FCPS Superintendent drones on about "disparate discipline" in his One Fairfax "equity" cult.

So now, FCPS parents scramble and fret to get their children into "AAP" which is basically just a ticket out of the lowest-common-denominator "gen ed" mess that they've created.

The answer is tracking kids even in elementary school based on demonstrated academic achievement, willingness to follow directions and learn, and general good-student behavior. But don't hold your breath for FCPS to take any logical steps like that -- they subscribe to the theory that your polite, well-behaved children are some sort of public-resource that they can sprinkle around classrooms full of misbehaving, uninterested, or non-English speaking students and which will make the other students improve by osmosis. In fact, all it does is harm your children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I attended Fairfax county public school in the suburbs back in the 80s/90s and I could write your post word for word almost. Except I realize that what happened back then - a well educated English speaking populations homogenous school population - no longer exists so that would make my experience no longer relevant.

Exactly. Now, we have a bazaar instead of a well-educated, English speaking population with a common culture; and now FCPS is hyper-focused on pet political causes and avoiding offending anyone, and barely focused at all on actual academic achievement or enforcing basic discipline with the students.

The latest push by FCPS is to water-down the discipline of the already-unruly student population, by trying to "fix" so-called "disparate discipline" ... given that FCPS just "fixed" the problem of students in distance learning getting poor grades by inflating everyone's grade (problem solved!) you can imagine how they plan to "fix" the problem (as they've defined it) of "disparate discipline" of students, rather than, say, fix the problem of disparate misbehavior by certain students. This is not an idle concern. I had a 2nd grader at FCPS whose school experience was constantly interrupted and degraded by several misbehaving students in her class for the entire year -- nothing was done to effectively address it even after discussions with the teacher and principal. Another of my children, in middle school, was confronted by another student in the bathroom with a weapon. Meanwhile, FCPS Superintendent drones on about "disparate discipline" in his One Fairfax "equity" cult.

So now, FCPS parents scramble and fret to get their children into "AAP" which is basically just a ticket out of the lowest-common-denominator "gen ed" mess that they've created.

The answer is tracking kids even in elementary school based on demonstrated academic achievement, willingness to follow directions and learn, and general good-student behavior. But don't hold your breath for FCPS to take any logical steps like that -- they subscribe to the theory that your polite, well-behaved children are some sort of public-resource that they can sprinkle around classrooms full of misbehaving, uninterested, or non-English speaking students and which will make the other students improve by osmosis. In fact, all it does is harm your children.

+1 The lack of accountability for bad behavior and discipline issues is especially worrisome. I've been seeing this a lot on the MCPS threads for the last few years... In particular, the "restorative justice" push over there has resulted in numerous cases of teachers actually fearing for their safety when admins do not support them with regard to any kind of discipline in the classroom. It's really sad and really speaks volumes about where we are likely headed next here in FCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I attended Fairfax county public school in the suburbs back in the 80s/90s and I could write your post word for word almost. Except I realize that what happened back then - a well educated English speaking populations homogenous school population - no longer exists so that would make my experience no longer relevant.

Exactly. Now, we have a bazaar instead of a well-educated, English speaking population with a common culture; and now FCPS is hyper-focused on pet political causes and avoiding offending anyone, and barely focused at all on actual academic achievement or enforcing basic discipline with the students.

The latest push by FCPS is to water-down the discipline of the already-unruly student population, by trying to "fix" so-called "disparate discipline" ... given that FCPS just "fixed" the problem of students in distance learning getting poor grades by inflating everyone's grade (problem solved!) you can imagine how they plan to "fix" the problem (as they've defined it) of "disparate discipline" of students, rather than, say, fix the problem of disparate misbehavior by certain students. This is not an idle concern. I had a 2nd grader at FCPS whose school experience was constantly interrupted and degraded by several misbehaving students in her class for the entire year -- nothing was done to effectively address it even after discussions with the teacher and principal. Another of my children, in middle school, was confronted by another student in the bathroom with a weapon. Meanwhile, FCPS Superintendent drones on about "disparate discipline" in his One Fairfax "equity" cult.

So now, FCPS parents scramble and fret to get their children into "AAP" which is basically just a ticket out of the lowest-common-denominator "gen ed" mess that they've created.

The answer is tracking kids even in elementary school based on demonstrated academic achievement, willingness to follow directions and learn, and general good-student behavior. But don't hold your breath for FCPS to take any logical steps like that -- they subscribe to the theory that your polite, well-behaved children are some sort of public-resource that they can sprinkle around classrooms full of misbehaving, uninterested, or non-English speaking students and which will make the other students improve by osmosis. In fact, all it does is harm your children.

x 6,000,000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I attended Fairfax county public school in the suburbs back in the 80s/90s and I could write your post word for word almost. Except I realize that what happened back then - a well educated English speaking populations homogenous school population - no longer exists so that would make my experience no longer relevant.

Exactly. Now, we have a bazaar instead of a well-educated, English speaking population with a common culture; and now FCPS is hyper-focused on pet political causes and avoiding offending anyone, and barely focused at all on actual academic achievement or enforcing basic discipline with the students.

The latest push by FCPS is to water-down the discipline of the already-unruly student population, by trying to "fix" so-called "disparate discipline" ... given that FCPS just "fixed" the problem of students in distance learning getting poor grades by inflating everyone's grade (problem solved!) you can imagine how they plan to "fix" the problem (as they've defined it) of "disparate discipline" of students, rather than, say, fix the problem of disparate misbehavior by certain students. This is not an idle concern. I had a 2nd grader at FCPS whose school experience was constantly interrupted and degraded by several misbehaving students in her class for the entire year -- nothing was done to effectively address it even after discussions with the teacher and principal. Another of my children, in middle school, was confronted by another student in the bathroom with a weapon. Meanwhile, FCPS Superintendent drones on about "disparate discipline" in his One Fairfax "equity" cult.

So now, FCPS parents scramble and fret to get their children into "AAP" which is basically just a ticket out of the lowest-common-denominator "gen ed" mess that they've created.

The answer is tracking kids even in elementary school based on demonstrated academic achievement, willingness to follow directions and learn, and general good-student behavior. But don't hold your breath for FCPS to take any logical steps like that -- they subscribe to the theory that your polite, well-behaved children are some sort of public-resource that they can sprinkle around classrooms full of misbehaving, uninterested, or non-English speaking students and which will make the other students improve by osmosis. In fact, all it does is harm your children.

+1 The lack of accountability for bad behavior and discipline issues is especially worrisome. I've been seeing this a lot on the MCPS threads for the last few years... In particular, the "restorative justice" push over there has resulted in numerous cases of teachers actually fearing for their safety when admins do not support them with regard to any kind of discipline in the classroom. It's really sad and really speaks volumes about where we are likely headed next here in FCPS.

the school can do whatever they want to but, at least in virginia with it's wonky messed up system, anyone can go to a magistrate to swear out a warrant for a misdemeanor

[Anonymous]

And now we won't be able to get advanced math at all, because your kids will have their needs met with richer math.

[Anonymous]

What a fun thread! Guess what? I went to ES in the 80s and we had a non-diverse population too OP. We had a little bit of tracking. We also didn’t have car seats, were latchkey kids, played with lawn darts, and expected a light bulb to cook dough rendering it safe enough to eat.

Things change. Society progresses. Or not, as the case may be. There are lots or arguments to be had for or against differentiation; because it worked in a school somewhere in NE for someone once in the 90s is amongst the least compelling though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What a fun thread! Guess what? I went to ES in the 80s and we had a non-diverse population too OP. We had a little bit of tracking. We also didn’t have car seats, were latchkey kids, played with lawn darts, and expected a light bulb to cook dough rendering it safe enough to eat.

Things change. Society progresses. Or not, as the case may be. There are lots or arguments to be had for or against differentiation; because it worked in a school somewhere in NE for someone once in the 90s is amongst the least compelling though.

+1

So tired of the back-in-my-day people. Expect it from my mom, it annoys me with my own generation, who should know better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What a fun thread! Guess what? I went to ES in the 80s and we had a non-diverse population too OP. We had a little bit of tracking. We also didn’t have car seats, were latchkey kids, played with lawn darts, and expected a light bulb to cook dough rendering it safe enough to eat.

Things change. Society progresses. Or not, as the case may be. There are lots or arguments to be had for or against differentiation; because it worked in a school somewhere in NE for someone once in the 90s is amongst the least compelling though.

I'm the PP who posted about my New England school, but not OP. I didn't mean that differentiation is undesirable. On the contrary, I think it is ideal.

But it seems extremely challenging to provide much differentiation with the resources and ratios that are typical in a public school classroom. I am sure my old public school would have loved to offer more differentiation if they had more money, staff, and space.

I think it would not take much in additional resources to allow more precocious kids to move ahead if they are able to learn mostly independently and they rely on the teacher only for providing materials (textbook, assignments) and administering exams. So maybe that could be a lower hanging fruit to shoot for.