It's (finally) time for reparations. It's time for the US to pay its debt.

[Anonymous]

Yes it is. US bombed my country without the UN approval with depleted plutonium or something. Destroyed the infrastructure of the country. Killed many. How much are we getting?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd be all for creating a sovereign wealth fund for the United States. We have so much money in the country that could be used for wayyyyyyy better investments than crappy programs like social security.

A sovereign wealth fund can be created without increasing taxes, and it can be weighted in its distribution for shares based on HHI. Those below a certain threshold get more shares than those above it. This would attack the root problem of wealth inequality that transcends race, and at the same time African Americans would benefit more because they have less wealth than white people. But its a smarter political play because white people can still benefit too if they're below a threshold. Wealth inequality is a problem for every race.

Is this an "opt-in" model?

You can if you want to. People can buy shares. You could even base the price per share relative to someone's house hold income. Poorer people could pay a lot less for a shares and literally acquire more wealth. No shares would be passed on to kids so that rich people can't buy up huge blocks and pass it to their offspring.

That still gives white people an advantage. If black wealth can't be handed down from generation to generation like it can for white investments then this doesn't really help the root issue: generational wealth accumulation.

"From shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations."

Do y'all understand wealth generation and what it is and is not?

Yes, I understand. Do you?

Sounds like you don't.

Explain why white people should be able to pass on their wealth from generation to generation but black people can't. AKA protection of white privilege.

The whole Sovereign Wealth Fund idea is stupid. Social Security is one of the mainstays of the Black community, and there's no way some new allocation of "shares" is going to provide anywhere near the same support for Black disabled or retired people. Plus, we can't afford the transitions costs of dumping Social Security for this sovereign wealth fund. It's not even clear how this thing gets funded "without raising taxes", like it's some notional accounts system that is worthless IRL.

Best to ignore this poster. I'm not a fan of cash reparations either, although I'd absolutely be for improving the Social Security system, improving public education, and national healthcare.

Also, social security is an absolute garbage program. You essentially are paying in ordinate sums of money into a program that provides basically $0 in ROI over decades. It's also going bankrupt. Who in their right mind would willingly fork over thousands of dollars for decades to get $0, possibly even negative ROI after factoring in inflation. Social security sucks.

Social Security is NOT going bankrupt, it can pay 70-80% of benefits for the next 75 years. It provides things like disability insurance, which is crucial to blacks, that your Sovereign Wealth Fund will never provide.

But this isn’t the thread, take your rubbish to another thread.

$0 ROI for SS. No wonder black people stay poor when they have cheerleaders for a shite program such as yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm all for paying higher taxes to provide healthcare for all, better schools, and free college for lower-income kids.

I worked in development for 10 years and huge cash transfers aren't the way to go. Teach a man to fish and all that.

How about other forms of reparations?

Do you support the principle but not just handing out cash?

NP here. The principle is abhorrent. My parents and grandparents recieved Holocaust reparations from the German government. That was for their suffering. I would not accept reparations for me. I did not suffer anything close to what they went through.

On the other hand, I do believe society has an obligation to assist people who are poor today. Present conditions that keep them in poverty should be fixed. They are entitled to a decent life and opportunities. Cash is okay, but jobs at living wages is better.

Otherwise, we will be saying Oprah deserves "reparations," but a poor white who grew up in poverty deserves nothing.

What if your parents had never been paid? What if Israel wasn't formed? What if extensive systemic antisemitism was still happening today?

Did you know that the US government still pays (this year $5 million) to support Holocaust survivors living in America? And $3.8B in military aid to Israel in 2019.

Even, some slave owners were compensated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/opinion/when-slaveowners-got-reparations.html


How much has the US ever paid to survivors of slavery and other forms of black oppression?

My mother's family was compensated. Due to the vagaries of history, my father's family was not. That's how it goes. I would not accept money for him.

Military aid to Israel is not reparations. It's a military alliance. Formation of Israel was perhaps reparations, but that benefited actual refugees, and unfortunately created other refugees who are still suffering.

What about Indians? We took 100 per cent of their land. Do we give it back?

What about Chinese railroad builders? They weren't paid very well and faced years of discrimination. Do they get back compensation for what they should have been paid?

What about women for the last 5,000 years? So many were slaves to their husbands. Do today's men owe women payment for our grandfathers beating our grandmothers?


The point is, history is history. The winners and the losers all end up dead. Their joys and sufferings are over. We can't fix what happened to the dead, not even in theory.

We can however make the world better for those who suffer today. That's what we should be talking about.

Thoughts on how to bridge the wealth gap without reparations?

Focus on systemic racism issues that exist today. It's really that simple. It's disgusting to demand anything called "reparations" for something that happened 400 years ago.

400 years ago? The Civil Rights Act was only passed 56 years ago. At that point, discrimination became illegal, but nothing was done to correct existing injustices and black people still do face discrimination today. Brown v. Board of Education was decided 66 years ago, but our schools remain segregated today. All moving us in the right direction, but the harm of 400 years of slavery and oppression was never corrected and nothing lost was restored.

I agree we should work on systemic racism, but without also addressing the wealth gap we are limited in our ability to transform our country. We can't achieve racial equality until we achieve economic equality.

The harm of 400 years of slavery CANNOT be corrected. That's the point.

I didn't say anything about the wealth gap and I won't until you understand that your small bank account is a CURRENT problem, not an historical one. YOU did not lose anything. Your ancestors did. Nothing can be "restored," to dead people.

We can't resolve current problems by appealing to past injustices.

[Anonymous]

True

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think reparations make moral sense, but I have no clue how you’d decide who is qualified.

Descendants of slaves are obvious, but what about a rich black person? Do they get it too and, if so, is it the same amount?

What about a Nigerian immigrant who got here last year, has a great job, but still faces discrimination because she’s black?

She addressed that in her essay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have to wonder if OP is a troll. If not, he/she must be awfully young.

Because I want to discuss this essay? At least I'm not throwing out ad hominem comments left and right...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there may be a moral basis for reparations. But wouldn’t the economic benefits of race based affirmative action over the last decades have to be taken into account too, to arrive at an appropriate payment amount?

How would you measure that?

If you look at the income and wealth gaps, we haven't made any progress.

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/institute/working-papers-institute/iwp9.pdf
"The historical data also reveal that no progress has been made in reducing income and wealth inequalities between black and white households over the past 70 years"

What happens when you take Bezos, Gates, and Zuckerberg out?

We've significantly increased income inequality over the past several decades. But that's not the same issue as the wealth inequality between white and black people.

Yup - I think the to make the racial wealth disparity stick so that it's exactly the same now as it was in 1950, you have to attribute the wealth of like the 100 astronomically wealthy white people and attribute it to white people generally.

Well they benefit from white privilege so it's accurate to include them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd be all for creating a sovereign wealth fund for the United States. We have so much money in the country that could be used for wayyyyyyy better investments than crappy programs like social security.

A sovereign wealth fund can be created without increasing taxes, and it can be weighted in its distribution for shares based on HHI. Those below a certain threshold get more shares than those above it. This would attack the root problem of wealth inequality that transcends race, and at the same time African Americans would benefit more because they have less wealth than white people. But its a smarter political play because white people can still benefit too if they're below a threshold. Wealth inequality is a problem for every race.

Is this an "opt-in" model?

You can if you want to. People can buy shares. You could even base the price per share relative to someone's house hold income. Poorer people could pay a lot less for a shares and literally acquire more wealth. No shares would be passed on to kids so that rich people can't buy up huge blocks and pass it to their offspring.

That still gives white people an advantage. If black wealth can't be handed down from generation to generation like it can for white investments then this doesn't really help the root issue: generational wealth accumulation.

"From shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations."

Do y'all understand wealth generation and what it is and is not?

Yes, I understand. Do you?

Sounds like you don't.

Explain why white people should be able to pass on their wealth from generation to generation but black people can't. AKA protection of white privilege.

The whole Sovereign Wealth Fund idea is stupid. Social Security is one of the mainstays of the Black community, and there's no way some new allocation of "shares" is going to provide anywhere near the same support for Black disabled or retired people. Plus, we can't afford the transitions costs of dumping Social Security for this sovereign wealth fund. It's not even clear how this thing gets funded "without raising taxes", like it's some notional accounts system that is worthless IRL.

Best to ignore this poster. I'm not a fan of cash reparations either, although I'd absolutely be for improving the Social Security system, improving public education, and national healthcare.

Also, social security is an absolute garbage program. You essentially are paying in ordinate sums of money into a program that provides basically $0 in ROI over decades. It's also going bankrupt. Who in their right mind would willingly fork over thousands of dollars for decades to get $0, possibly even negative ROI after factoring in inflation. Social security sucks.

Social Security is NOT going bankrupt, it can pay 70-80% of benefits for the next 75 years. It provides things like disability insurance, which is crucial to blacks, that your Sovereign Wealth Fund will never provide.

But this isn’t the thread, take your rubbish to another thread.

Maybe we need other options...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes it is. US bombed my country without the UN approval with depleted plutonium or something. Destroyed the infrastructure of the country. Killed many. How much are we getting?

Feel free to start your own thread about that topic. If you want to read the essay and share your thoughts on it I'd love to discuss.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes it is. US bombed my country without the UN approval with depleted plutonium or something. Destroyed the infrastructure of the country. Killed many. How much are we getting?

Feel free to start your own thread about that topic. If you want to read the essay and share your thoughts on it I'd love to discuss.

You keep saying that but you're not demonstrating it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm all for paying higher taxes to provide healthcare for all, better schools, and free college for lower-income kids.

I worked in development for 10 years and huge cash transfers aren't the way to go. Teach a man to fish and all that.

How about other forms of reparations?

Do you support the principle but not just handing out cash?

NP here. The principle is abhorrent. My parents and grandparents recieved Holocaust reparations from the German government. That was for their suffering. I would not accept reparations for me. I did not suffer anything close to what they went through.

On the other hand, I do believe society has an obligation to assist people who are poor today. Present conditions that keep them in poverty should be fixed. They are entitled to a decent life and opportunities. Cash is okay, but jobs at living wages is better.

Otherwise, we will be saying Oprah deserves "reparations," but a poor white who grew up in poverty deserves nothing.

What if your parents had never been paid? What if Israel wasn't formed? What if extensive systemic antisemitism was still happening today?

Did you know that the US government still pays (this year $5 million) to support Holocaust survivors living in America? And $3.8B in military aid to Israel in 2019.

Even, some slave owners were compensated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/opinion/when-slaveowners-got-reparations.html


How much has the US ever paid to survivors of slavery and other forms of black oppression?

My mother's family was compensated. Due to the vagaries of history, my father's family was not. That's how it goes. I would not accept money for him.

Military aid to Israel is not reparations. It's a military alliance. Formation of Israel was perhaps reparations, but that benefited actual refugees, and unfortunately created other refugees who are still suffering.

What about Indians? We took 100 per cent of their land. Do we give it back?

What about Chinese railroad builders? They weren't paid very well and faced years of discrimination. Do they get back compensation for what they should have been paid?

What about women for the last 5,000 years? So many were slaves to their husbands. Do today's men owe women payment for our grandfathers beating our grandmothers?


The point is, history is history. The winners and the losers all end up dead. Their joys and sufferings are over. We can't fix what happened to the dead, not even in theory.

We can however make the world better for those who suffer today. That's what we should be talking about.

Thoughts on how to bridge the wealth gap without reparations?

Focus on systemic racism issues that exist today. It's really that simple. It's disgusting to demand anything called "reparations" for something that happened 400 years ago.

400 years ago? The Civil Rights Act was only passed 56 years ago. At that point, discrimination became illegal, but nothing was done to correct existing injustices and black people still do face discrimination today. Brown v. Board of Education was decided 66 years ago, but our schools remain segregated today. All moving us in the right direction, but the harm of 400 years of slavery and oppression was never corrected and nothing lost was restored.

I agree we should work on systemic racism, but without also addressing the wealth gap we are limited in our ability to transform our country. We can't achieve racial equality until we achieve economic equality.

The harm of 400 years of slavery CANNOT be corrected. That's the point.

I didn't say anything about the wealth gap and I won't until you understand that your small bank account is a CURRENT problem, not an historical one. YOU did not lose anything. Your ancestors did. Nothing can be "restored," to dead people.

We can't resolve current problems by appealing to past injustices.

Did you even read the essay? Past and current injustices have current day manifestations.

Small bank accounts are a current problem caused by current and historical issues. The wealth gap today shows exactly what was "lost".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes it is. US bombed my country without the UN approval with depleted plutonium or something. Destroyed the infrastructure of the country. Killed many. How much are we getting?

Feel free to start your own thread about that topic. If you want to read the essay and share your thoughts on it I'd love to discuss.

You keep saying that but you're not demonstrating it

What were your thoughts on the essay?

How should we fix the wealth gap in the US?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd be all for creating a sovereign wealth fund for the United States. We have so much money in the country that could be used for wayyyyyyy better investments than crappy programs like social security.

A sovereign wealth fund can be created without increasing taxes, and it can be weighted in its distribution for shares based on HHI. Those below a certain threshold get more shares than those above it. This would attack the root problem of wealth inequality that transcends race, and at the same time African Americans would benefit more because they have less wealth than white people. But its a smarter political play because white people can still benefit too if they're below a threshold. Wealth inequality is a problem for every race.

Is this an "opt-in" model?

You can if you want to. People can buy shares. You could even base the price per share relative to someone's house hold income. Poorer people could pay a lot less for a shares and literally acquire more wealth. No shares would be passed on to kids so that rich people can't buy up huge blocks and pass it to their offspring.

That still gives white people an advantage. If black wealth can't be handed down from generation to generation like it can for white investments then this doesn't really help the root issue: generational wealth accumulation.

"From shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations."

Do y'all understand wealth generation and what it is and is not?

Yes, I understand. Do you?

Sounds like you don't.

Explain why white people should be able to pass on their wealth from generation to generation but black people can't. AKA protection of white privilege.

The whole Sovereign Wealth Fund idea is stupid. Social Security is one of the mainstays of the Black community, and there's no way some new allocation of "shares" is going to provide anywhere near the same support for Black disabled or retired people. Plus, we can't afford the transitions costs of dumping Social Security for this sovereign wealth fund. It's not even clear how this thing gets funded "without raising taxes", like it's some notional accounts system that is worthless IRL.

Best to ignore this poster. I'm not a fan of cash reparations either, although I'd absolutely be for improving the Social Security system, improving public education, and national healthcare.

Also, social security is an absolute garbage program. You essentially are paying in ordinate sums of money into a program that provides basically $0 in ROI over decades. It's also going bankrupt. Who in their right mind would willingly fork over thousands of dollars for decades to get $0, possibly even negative ROI after factoring in inflation. Social security sucks.

It's a pension fund not an investment. The purpose of a pension is NOT to maximize ROI. It's to minimize risk of poverty during old age. Which is an entirely different thing. The point is the guaranteed payment, even if all of your investment fail completely.

And it isn't going bankrupt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm all for paying higher taxes to provide healthcare for all, better schools, and free college for lower-income kids.

I worked in development for 10 years and huge cash transfers aren't the way to go. Teach a man to fish and all that.

How about other forms of reparations?

Do you support the principle but not just handing out cash?

NP here. The principle is abhorrent. My parents and grandparents recieved Holocaust reparations from the German government. That was for their suffering. I would not accept reparations for me. I did not suffer anything close to what they went through.

On the other hand, I do believe society has an obligation to assist people who are poor today. Present conditions that keep them in poverty should be fixed. They are entitled to a decent life and opportunities. Cash is okay, but jobs at living wages is better.

Otherwise, we will be saying Oprah deserves "reparations," but a poor white who grew up in poverty deserves nothing.

What if your parents had never been paid? What if Israel wasn't formed? What if extensive systemic antisemitism was still happening today?

Did you know that the US government still pays (this year $5 million) to support Holocaust survivors living in America? And $3.8B in military aid to Israel in 2019.

Even, some slave owners were compensated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/opinion/when-slaveowners-got-reparations.html


How much has the US ever paid to survivors of slavery and other forms of black oppression?

My mother's family was compensated. Due to the vagaries of history, my father's family was not. That's how it goes. I would not accept money for him.

Military aid to Israel is not reparations. It's a military alliance. Formation of Israel was perhaps reparations, but that benefited actual refugees, and unfortunately created other refugees who are still suffering.

What about Indians? We took 100 per cent of their land. Do we give it back?

What about Chinese railroad builders? They weren't paid very well and faced years of discrimination. Do they get back compensation for what they should have been paid?

What about women for the last 5,000 years? So many were slaves to their husbands. Do today's men owe women payment for our grandfathers beating our grandmothers?


The point is, history is history. The winners and the losers all end up dead. Their joys and sufferings are over. We can't fix what happened to the dead, not even in theory.

We can however make the world better for those who suffer today. That's what we should be talking about.

Thoughts on how to bridge the wealth gap without reparations?

Focus on systemic racism issues that exist today. It's really that simple. It's disgusting to demand anything called "reparations" for something that happened 400 years ago.

400 years ago? The Civil Rights Act was only passed 56 years ago. At that point, discrimination became illegal, but nothing was done to correct existing injustices and black people still do face discrimination today. Brown v. Board of Education was decided 66 years ago, but our schools remain segregated today. All moving us in the right direction, but the harm of 400 years of slavery and oppression was never corrected and nothing lost was restored.

I agree we should work on systemic racism, but without also addressing the wealth gap we are limited in our ability to transform our country. We can't achieve racial equality until we achieve economic equality.

The harm of 400 years of slavery CANNOT be corrected. That's the point.

I didn't say anything about the wealth gap and I won't until you understand that your small bank account is a CURRENT problem, not an historical one. YOU did not lose anything. Your ancestors did. Nothing can be "restored," to dead people.

We can't resolve current problems by appealing to past injustices.

Did you even read the essay? Past and current injustices have current day manifestations.

Small bank accounts are a current problem caused by current and historical issues. The wealth gap today shows exactly what was "lost".

No it doesn't.

Black people lost a lot of wealth in DC after the riots. That is because of property value changes, not slavery. You're mixing up a lot of historical issues while ignoring recent history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there may be a moral basis for reparations. But wouldn’t the economic benefits of race based affirmative action over the last decades have to be taken into account too, to arrive at an appropriate payment amount?

How would you measure that?

If you look at the income and wealth gaps, we haven't made any progress.

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/institute/working-papers-institute/iwp9.pdf
"The historical data also reveal that no progress has been made in reducing income and wealth inequalities between black and white households over the past 70 years"

What happens when you take Bezos, Gates, and Zuckerberg out?

We've significantly increased income inequality over the past several decades. But that's not the same issue as the wealth inequality between white and black people.

That is because much of wealth is no longer tied to tangible things, be it physical property, precious metals, or produced goods. Also increased wealth inequality started around the same time that we increased the size of the workforce through increased female labor participation rates coupled with imcreased immigration. Also moving off the gold standard allowed for printing of tremendous amounts of money, which devalued non-physical wealth. This also lead to a significant price to earnings expansion ratio for stocks, which increased shareholder wealth for existing shareholders, likewise reduction in interest rates have expanded the value of homes and the cost of an education, which in turn increases the debt load.