Few days to decide: U of Virginia or U of Chicago?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What are the stem requirements? Calc and what else?

http://collegecatalog.uchicago.edu/thecollege/thecurriculum/

What math is required depends on what you intend to major in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD is a freshman at Chicago and she loves it. She’s a smart hard working student , as all of the students are, but what she especially likes are her close friendships and the fun that they have together at activities and in with her dorm mates. She likes all of her classes and her professors and she’s just really happy there. It was her first choice and it has really worked out for her.

My DC is a third year and has serious misgivings about the place. UChicago was DC’s first choice and DC was very happy with it first year.

What is DC’s major?

Honestly, I would have preferred a school like UVA for my DD. I told her that there was plenty of time in grad school for endless studying and projects and why not go to a slightly less intense school with some more down time?
I was told to stick it.

I’m very glad that she is happy there. I’ve met some of her friends and they all seem pretty wonderful and they seem pretty happy at the school.

I still worry a bit though. I think of U of Chicago is a school that the child has to pick and have a strong preference for (after doing thorough research into what the school is about). The parent definitely should not be picking that school for the child.

I have also been told repeatedly by other alumnae that they have met some of their ‘best friends for life’ at U of Chicago as well and I liked hearing that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is private Chicago worth the premium?

I think that Chicago is more for a prodigy who was reading almanacs, dictionaries and encyclopedias at some point. For that kid, going to Chicago might be the only chance to be around similar people. Paying for Chicago for that kid, if possible, is worth it, because going there may be the kid’s only chance to learn how to talk in situations in which dumbing down is not necessary. Going to a place like Chicago or Cal Tech is important to that’s kid development.

Going to Chicago might also be good for normal bright kids who want to go into research.

UVA is probably better for most bright kids who aren’t sure they want to become researchers.

This post describes my humanities child and my exact concerns and thoughts. That said, DC also has trouble with a pressure cooker environment. Someone here described the U of C that way. Do others agree? I know it can be for a number of majors but is it necessarily stressful for all kids. DC is the hyperintellectual/high verbal ability but disorganized/absent-minded professor type.

The problem is folks here are not consistent. If the quarter system is an issue then every school with a quarter system becomes an issue. Stanford, Northwestern, Dartmouth, and many many more. Clearly the quarter system is a red herring. It is used against some schools but I am sure people will crawl thru shit to get their kids into Stanford. So what is it that makes Chicago stand out? Well it is one of the few schools left in the elite list that actually expects you to be a student and actually study. It is definitely not a "Grade deflated school". That is laughable, but it is also not a "Grade inflated school". If you go there and decide to goof off, you are going to make bad grades. If you don't do your assignments or reading or just try to skate by, you are going to get bad grades. If you are going to binge drink (and trust me, you are do that at Chicago, people you tell you, you can't are clueless about how the school has changed in the last 10 years) and go off the rails, your grade is going to suffer. But if you work conscientiously, you will do fine. The problem is, most people nowadays think work conscientiously is "being a grind". This is college people, not a vacation. You are supposed to work and gain knowledge.

So it all depends on your philosophy. If you want your kid to get a real education, where teachers don't hand out A's like candy and do justice to the "astronomical tuition" that any private college charges, then Chicago may be right for you. But if you want your kid to just get a branded degree, don't care or want them to actually expend effort in learning the material, then don't send them here. They will be miserable. BTW, I don't think the school gives a rat's ass. They are finding enough of the kids they want and don't care about others. With a 5.9% admit rate, they don't have to compromise on the kids they take. In fact, I think they are pretty good at cherry picking the kids that actually are not skaters.

Hyperintellectual kids often don’t need whip-cracking to learn. And, in fact, fear of the lash may get in the way of them doing their best work/learning
as much as they can. There’s a difference between kids who would binge-drink and those who would binge-read if they weren’t under constant pressure to perform.

And, no, you don’t have to think quarter system is bad everywhere to believe that it’s a real downside to UChicago.

Binge reading? So, your kid has classwork and reading in certain subjects to do but wants to binge read other stuff and school isn’t supposed to get in the way? Personally it doesn’t sound like any college would be good for that. DC needs their PhD now so that he/she can binge read and study all she wants on her chosen topic . As long as she can then contribute original research to her field she should be set for life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is private Chicago worth the premium?

I think that Chicago is more for a prodigy who was reading almanacs, dictionaries and encyclopedias at some point. For that kid, going to Chicago might be the only chance to be around similar people. Paying for Chicago for that kid, if possible, is worth it, because going there may be the kid’s only chance to learn how to talk in situations in which dumbing down is not necessary. Going to a place like Chicago or Cal Tech is important to that’s kid development.

Going to Chicago might also be good for normal bright kids who want to go into research.

UVA is probably better for most bright kids who aren’t sure they want to become researchers.

This post describes my humanities child and my exact concerns and thoughts. That said, DC also has trouble with a pressure cooker environment. Someone here described the U of C that way. Do others agree? I know it can be for a number of majors but is it necessarily stressful for all kids. DC is the hyperintellectual/high verbal ability but disorganized/absent-minded professor type.

The problem is folks here are not consistent. If the quarter system is an issue then every school with a quarter system becomes an issue. Stanford, Northwestern, Dartmouth, and many many more. Clearly the quarter system is a red herring. It is used against some schools but I am sure people will crawl thru shit to get their kids into Stanford. So what is it that makes Chicago stand out? Well it is one of the few schools left in the elite list that actually expects you to be a student and actually study. It is definitely not a "Grade deflated school". That is laughable, but it is also not a "Grade inflated school". If you go there and decide to goof off, you are going to make bad grades. If you don't do your assignments or reading or just try to skate by, you are going to get bad grades. If you are going to binge drink (and trust me, you are do that at Chicago, people you tell you, you can't are clueless about how the school has changed in the last 10 years) and go off the rails, your grade is going to suffer. But if you work conscientiously, you will do fine. The problem is, most people nowadays think work conscientiously is "being a grind". This is college people, not a vacation. You are supposed to work and gain knowledge.

So it all depends on your philosophy. If you want your kid to get a real education, where teachers don't hand out A's like candy and do justice to the "astronomical tuition" that any private college charges, then Chicago may be right for you. But if you want your kid to just get a branded degree, don't care or want them to actually expend effort in learning the material, then don't send them here. They will be miserable. BTW, I don't think the school gives a rat's ass. They are finding enough of the kids they want and don't care about others. With a 5.9% admit rate, they don't have to compromise on the kids they take. In fact, I think they are pretty good at cherry picking the kids that actually are not skaters.

Hyperintellectual kids often don’t need whip-cracking to learn. And, in fact, fear of the lash may get in the way of them doing their best work/learning
as much as they can. There’s a difference between kids who would binge-drink and those who would binge-read if they weren’t under constant pressure to perform.

And, no, you don’t have to think quarter system is bad everywhere to believe that it’s a real downside to UChicago.

Not sure what you mean by whip cracking, but I don't view refusing to hand out A's for just showing up to class and warming the seat as "whip cracking". While grades are not everything, a professor who gives 50% to 70% of the class "A"'s is not doing students any favors. I expect professors to be mindful that some students are better engaged and more conscientious than other kids. Grade socialism is a terrible signal to send to the earnest student just like "Income Socialism" is a terrible message to send to entrepreneurs and innovative citizens. This "everybody is special" mindset and trying to "land on equal outcomes" is a terrible idea and is not how the real world operates.

As far as binge reading reference, there is no causal effect between "accurate grading" and "constant pressure to perform". That is a false narrative. Students at Chicago take 3-4 courses a quarter. That is about 9 to 12 hours of class time. I fully expect kids to spend around 50 hours (including class time) a week on academics when they are in school, irrespective of what grade they earn. They are there to study, not to goof off. That leaves plenty of time to pursue interests and other activities if you manage your time well and prioritize intelligently. Kids who want to just spend 12-20 hrs a week on academics, including class time should not attend Chicago. They should go elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think there is any question. Univ of Chicago is now $76,000 a year. UVA instate's tuition is $14,710. (our DS lives off campus so doesn't have dorm, food service, health service fees). He has no car so only expenses are shared apartment and food. Our total outlay was probably $22K this year. Even using UVA's cost calculator for a student living on campus at $32,000, you are still looking at a difference of $44K a year which is in after-tax dollars. We would have to make $70K to pay the difference. Multiply that by four or five years and you have enough to pay for grad school, which is exactly what we are doing. Go to UVA and bank the difference, if you have it. If you don't have it, you should be going to UVA anyhow. DS has had a wonderful four years. Chicago is full of smart kids but it is cold and dark and fun indeed goes there to die.

No, absolutely not. Nobody should pay to go to grad school (professional school like law and medicine are the exception).

Grad students should be offered a teaching or research assistantship which comes with tuition waiver. If you are paying for it, they don't really want you and don't think you will succeed, and they are probably right.

Wrong. Many grad schools do require payment and lots of it. First, DS is going into an M.P.P. (Master's of public policy) program at UVA's Batten School of Public Policy and Leadership. Guess what? In-state perks for all intents and purposes stop at graduation. DS's tuition for the Batten School will jump from current tuition of $14,000 a year to over $43,000 a year. Second, MBA programs also cost a lot of money. Third, after the Master's program, DS wants to attend law school. The tuition for my law school is now almost $100K a year x 3 years. I am VERY grateful that DS had the wisdom to pick UVA over other privates where since we were then looking at a delta of more than $43,000 x 4 years. We've been able to bank the money that would have been spent at an OOS or private so can now provide for DS at the Master's and Professional school levels.

Not necessarily. UVA Graduate assistants get full in-state tuition and fees remission, as well as health insurance subsidy if they make a minimum of $5000/year -- and it's hard not to. Batten is affiliated with GA and RA positions, and in fact gives out yearly awards for good work in assistantships of various kinds.

Either you are saying "DS is going into" Batten without yet being at the stage of applying -- kind of jumping the gun there, no? -- or he isn't being offered a standard graduate student package. Which is fine, if that is what you want, I suppose.

I take it he did not get into the combined MPP/JD program, so he has to do these separately. As I said, professional schools such as law and medicine are a different category.

Aid Eligibility

Qualified graduate assistantships include tuition remission and the health insurance subsidy. They may also include tuition adjustment. A graduate assistantship is ‘qualified’ if it is at least half of a full assistantship (a quarter-time appointment, roughly equivalent to 10 hours per week).

Tuition Remission – The in-state tuition portion and all required fees (comprehensive fees, activity fees and, where applicable, the international student fee) paid on behalf of a student serving in a qualified graduate assistantship.

Tuition Adjustment – The amount of tuition above in-state tuition paid on behalf of an out-of-state student serving in a qualified graduate assistantship.

Health Insurance Subsidy – A subsidy funded centrally by the University and provided on behalf of a qualified graduate student. A qualified graduate student must be offered the health insurance subsidy if he or she earns at least $5,000 in wages as a GTA or GRA over the course of the fiscal year.

https://sfs.virginia.edu/grad/assistantships

Wrong on all fronts. DS is accepted via the accelerated Master's program so will finish both undergrad and grad. in five years, not six. Tuition for the fourth/combined year of undergrad and starting at Batten is at the in-state rate. Then it jumps for the fifth year. Yes, Batten has T.A. positions but you have to get them in order to take advantage of them. Not everyone gets to be a T.A. right? Students in the accelerated program are coming in from their third year at UVA so don't qualify for T.A. positions. Yes, he plans to apply sometime next year for a T.A. position the fifth year but who knows? Those often go to international students or others who have demonstrated financial nees. Then he hopes to study aboard and maybe go to law schools. Most law schools now want to see a two year break before applying.

[b]Sounds like he plans to put off getting gainfully employed for as long as possible on your dime.

No, he's doing a six year program in five years. I would hardly call that putting off gainful employment - in fact he's very concerned about money -- that's why he's doing the accelerated program. And if you must know, he hopes to go to Oxbridge or similar situation in Europe on a Fulbright or other scholarship, then return to the states for law school.

[Anonymous]

9-12 hours is a significant underestimation of how much time STEM majors spend in class at UChicago. DC’S courses have lectures + lab + discussion section. Weekly problem sets, multiple midterms, project and/or final exam. Language and arts classes have also met for 5 hours per week rather than 3. Humanities courses seem to have same number of essays as we had in a semester.

The comments about relentless pace aren’t coming from people who expect their kids to devote no more than 20 hours total/week to academics. They’re coming from the Dean and from people like me who have studied and taught at other elite institutions whose semester systems enabled us spend time doing more than what was required and gave us the opportunity to process/synthesize/reflect upon what we’d learned over the course of the whole term rather than just move on to the next thing and do the best we could before the thing after that became urgent.

And none of this is about grade inflation. It’s about being given the time and space to do your best vs being forced to settle for “good enough” — defined not be degree of mastery of the material but by location on the curve. I’ve seen 90%+ performances get Bs and cumulative averages of 60% or less get A-s. More of the latter than the former, actually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD is a freshman at Chicago and she loves it. She’s a smart hard working student , as all of the students are, but what she especially likes are her close friendships and the fun that they have together at activities and in with her dorm mates. She likes all of her classes and her professors and she’s just really happy there. It was her first choice and it has really worked out for her.

My DC is a third year and has serious misgivings about the place. UChicago was DC’s first choice and DC was very happy with it first year.

What is DC’s major?

Honestly, I would have preferred a school like UVA for my DD. I told her that there was plenty of time in grad school for endless studying and projects and why not go to a slightly less intense school with some more down time?
I was told to stick it.

I’m very glad that she is happy there. I’ve met some of her friends and they all seem pretty wonderful and they seem pretty happy at the school.

I still worry a bit though. I think of U of Chicago is a school that the child has to pick and have a strong preference for (after doing thorough research into what the school is about). The parent definitely should not be picking that school for the child.

I have also been told repeatedly by other alumnae that they have met some of their ‘best friends for life’ at U of Chicago as well and I liked hearing that.

DC majors in a lab science. I had the same experience as you describe wrt advocating for a saner pace in college and being blown off. I think UMC kids today are growing up in environments that tell them that the smartest kids prove themselves by doing as many of the hardest things as young and as quickly as possible. That’s a recipe for burnout — not excellence.

[Anonymous]

+1000

[Anonymous]

My ds is going to Chicago and this thread is scaring me!

[Anonymous]

For what it’s worth, I’m one of the critics and I don’t think that the issues I’m pointing out necessarily cancel out the school’s strengths or affect all students. To me, one really important piece of the puzzle is courseload. Undergrads shouldn’t always take 4 courses. Most should not take more than one honors course (I think this is just a STEM thing) at a time. Ideally, they should pay attention to weekly rhythms of assignments (but that’s not always possible because you don’t know when assignments will be due prior to enrollment decisions — class schedule isn't a good predictor). And they should be aware of add/drop dates, policies on incompletes, and pass/fail options. Also, seek help early and often, ask for extensions if you need them, etc.

Faculty have been exceptional. Resources (eg summer funding, career services, new dorms) have been impressive. City’s great. Intellectual/cultural life (music festivals, Doc films, IOP, museums, speaker series) on campus is diverse, robust, and really high quality.

I just think that the workload issues, especially for intellectually intense/ambitious kids, create an atmosphere that is needlessly stressful. I’m glad to see Boyer pushing for semester system.

[Anonymous]

Literally all of the top tier colleges are pretty much the same now. Pushy boisterous rich kids from prep schools. The end.

#3 private U vs #29 public U? This one's a no brainer. Chicago is cold, though -- but then again, so is New England if you were cross-shopping with an Ivy. Pack some earmuffs!

[Anonymous]

Oy - PP. you haven’t been to UVA recently. I would venture to say it’s mostly public schools kids ... and probably less than 50% come from wealthy households.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My ds is going to Chicago and this thread is scaring me!

Most threads on DCUM should scare you.

[Anonymous]

OP - what did your dc decide?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oy - PP. you haven’t been to UVA recently. I would venture to say it’s mostly public schools kids ... and probably less than 50% come from wealthy households.

UVA isn’t “top tier” — PP was clearly referring to top tier private colleges. “Top tier” or “Ivy plus” is the top 15 private colleges.