Why do people dislike the Big Three?

[Anonymous]

To answer the original question: It's the prestige factor. It's exaggerated beyond belief. That's what fuels the ambition, the angst, the drama. I know several adult alum of several top DC schools and they are lovely people but they not intellectual standouts by any stretch of the imagination!

[Anonymous]

You're not alone, 7:09 (I'm with you!), but we're still pretty atypical.

Sometimes I think it's not just having being in the position where your kid is a legacy, but actually having gone to a coveted college or two that (a) gives you more of a sense of the less-than-meritocratic admissions policies and (b) reminds you that such colleges aren't always the (or the only or necessarily the best) pathway to future happiness and success.

Two other factors shape my point of view. One is that while an Ivy League education changed my life, my daughter's growing up in that already0changed life. An Ivy league education would be more of the same for her rather than a life-altering experience.

The other is that grad school is the new college. Worst case scenario, my kid (entering middle school next year) will probably end up somewhere like University of Chicago. Boohoo. She could get a great education there and, if she didn't, it'd be her own damned fault. And it's hardly the case that she'll be handicapped in getting into the grad program of her choice because she came from Chicago rather than Yale. In short, for smart, high-performing affluent kids, there's more than enough slots in good colleges to go around. Grad school is where scarcity kicks in and at that point, it's inescapably up to the kid -- not the parent.

[Anonymous]

7:09 and 8:23, I'm with you. I think parents who are overly concerned about their kids attending "the big three" and the ivy league are really more concerned with being able to say my kid goes to ____, then their kid getting an outstanding education in the best environment for that kid. Nothing wrong with "the big three" schools or the lvy league - they're great places and provide kids with outstanding educations, but it's sad that some can't acknowledge there are other schools that also do that.

[Anonymous]

8:54 But it depends. There's only one Juilliard, only one Yale School of Drama.

[Anonymous]

Both of which, presumably, admit people based on artistic talent rather than where they went to HS.

And, of course, not every great musician when to Julliard or every great actor when to Yale. Nor is every Julliard graduate a great (or even successful) musician or every Yale School of Drama graduate a great (or even successful) actor.

Plus, if you're that caliber going in, why limit yourself to the US if, for some reason, you can't get into to Julliard or Yale. Realistically, there isn't only one if what you're talking about is quality/prestige rather than some specific instructor.

[Anonymous]

And is that even true re Julliard and Yale? Or are those just the only names that non-arts people know of in each field? In other words, is that impression more a function of media hype than insider/industry knowledge?

[Anonymous]

9:10 and 9:13 My point was that in some cases there are narrower options. Obviously a student interested in history or economics or English has more options. And yes there are other programs but these are tops by reputation among arts people.

[Anonymous]

A few responses from a parent with kids having graduated from independent schools:

NCS may have sent 9 out of a class to Yale 10-20 years ago, but that would not happen in today's world.

The top ten private schools in the city could probably produce a list saying they'd had graduates attend all the ivies within the last five years. Would agree that most of those statistics are related to legacy, athletics, minority status, parental wherewithall, or extreme talent/achievement. Top grades and scores are a basic requirement but don't work on their own if you're coming from an independent school -- they just might, in some cases, from a public.

Yes, the valedictorian from a top private school will probably get into a highly competive college more automatically than one from just any public high school. Being that valedictorian qualifies as an extreme achievement on its own, and there is only one of them. Be careful before you put your child on that track in your expectations -- as hard as it may be for parents of young children to understand (at this point, your child's potential seems so limitless), that kind of potential is born, not made, and reveals itself over time, mostly independent of parental and academic input. And great achievements often involve tradeoffs (stress, social, sacrificing other interests) you wouldn't want your child to make.

Parents need to give up on the idea of the ivies as an ideal. Kids themselves are starting to recognize that they are often seeking extremes in their students, a world-changing talent or highly intense focus. Smart, well-rounded kids are having better experiences elsewhere.

An independent school can give your child an academically and socially rich experience, life-long friends, authentic intellectual and emotional relationships with life-changing mentors, opportunities to explore their own multitudinous interests and talents, and the sense of being known and valued as a part of a dynamic community. This is why you might want to enroll your child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A few responses from a parent with kids having graduated from independent schools:

NCS may have sent 9 out of a class to Yale 10-20 years ago, but that would not happen in today's world.

The top ten private schools in the city could probably produce a list saying they'd had graduates attend all the ivies within the last five years. Would agree that most of those statistics are related to legacy, athletics, minority status, parental wherewithall, or extreme talent/achievement. Top grades and scores are a basic requirement but don't work on their own if you're coming from an independent school -- they just might, in some cases, from a public.

Yes, the valedictorian from a top private school will probably get into a highly competive college more automatically than one from just any public high school. Being that valedictorian qualifies as an extreme achievement on its own, and there is only one of them. Be careful before you put your child on that track in your expectations -- as hard as it may be for parents of young children to understand (at this point, your child's potential seems so limitless), that kind of potential is born, not made, and reveals itself over time, mostly independent of parental and academic input. And great achievements often involve tradeoffs (stress, social, sacrificing other interests) you wouldn't want your child to make.

Parents need to give up on the idea of the ivies as an ideal. Kids themselves are starting to recognize that they are often seeking extremes in their students, a world-changing talent or highly intense focus. Smart, well-rounded kids are having better experiences elsewhere.

An independent school can give your child an academically and socially rich experience, life-long friends, authentic intellectual and emotional relationships with life-changing mentors, opportunities to explore their own multitudinous interests and talents, and the sense of being known and valued as a part of a dynamic community. This is why you might want to enroll your child.

<clap, clap, clap> I completely agree. I also want to add that I think that it is harmful to children to be raised with such a narrow definition of success. And I find that most people who are insisting on the "right" schools and the glory of "prestige" have a very narrow definition of success.

[Anonymous]

Again, these aren't the kinds of admissions decisions that are based primarily on where someone went to high school and what their class rank was. It's more like the grad school scenario.

And that's also why "the one" strikes me as an outsider perspective. The best place to study will differ depending on what instrument you play or what kind of music or dance or acting you're interested in. And these assessments will change as faculty members come and go.

[Anonymous]

oops, 10:09 was meant as a response to the Juilliard/Yale School of Drama discussion.

I agree re the intervening discussion about private schools/Ivies.

Although I'd also add that "Ivies" never made any sense to me as a category. It's an historic football league, not a testament to educational quality or a predictor of future success. Cornell isn't Harvard isn't Dartmouth isn't Brown isn't Penn isn't Yale.

In that sense, the discussion comes full circle wrt 'the Big 3." In general, if you're basing your application decisions on educational criteria (rather than some perception of prestige), you're not likely to be interested in all three and you're not likely to prefer any of them to some other school. GDS and NCS or STA, for example, are very different. Maret makes more sense as an alternative to someone drawn to GDS. With STA, the tradeoff might be Landon and with NCS, Sidwell. Depending, in each case, about what draws you to particular schools in the first place (diversity, athletics, rigor, single-sex, progressive philosophy).

[Anonymous]

10:09 You are missing the point. For certain specialties, the choices are quite narrow. It has less to do with prestige and everything to do with numbers. There are not that many drama schools or outstanding drama departments relative to other disciplines. Of course Julliard and Yale are not the only ones but the pickings are slim. If my child wanted to be a garden variety English major, I could literally think of 40 schools that would work. I'm not sure why this perspective sounds "outsider."

[Anonymous]

10:09 isn't missing the point -- just disagreeing.

This is a thread about whether sending your kid of private school improves their odds of admission to prestigious colleges. Yale School of Drama is a graduate school. Getting into it has nothing to do with where someone went to high school. And the relevant comparison (in terms of the range of choices) would be to good PhD programs in English, rather than places where one could "be a garden variety English major."

Once you start talking about graduate programs, both the number of excellent schools and the specialties themselves narrow considerably but, in another sense, that means they diversify. (e.g. the best place to do grad work on 20-century American poetry probably isn't also the best place to study Shakespeare, even though both are taught in the English department.)

And, of course, in a field like drama, where academic credentials are not usually essential, the relative scarcity of university-based programs is supplemented by alternative ways to hone your craft and enhance your marketabiity. So it's not just faculty but agents and directors deciding who has talent and various coaches and Rep groups providing training.

[Anonymous]

There are also quite a few small private colleges in the States that have very strong alum connections, politically, professionally, and certainly socially, especially in places like Washington and NYC, that will assist your child in having a rewarding and successful career and life after college. That seems to be totally discounted by those who are "striving" to be part of these WDC pricvate schools and Ivies and I assume its because they do not come from families with rich educational backgrounds* so they don't how how much bigger the world of colleges and universities is. Perhaps its only the parents who are graduates of an ivy that feel this way but, somehow I suspect that is not the case.

My family breaks pretty evenly down the lines of Ivy grads and other private college grads and there are definitely many more factors that determine where and how the graduates end up in their adult lives than which of the two college groups they came from. Actually, some of the most connected and finacially sucessful are from the latter group - small private liberal arts rather than an Ivy. I don't know that financial sucess is what most of you consider sucess but its the easiest thing to quantify. To my husband and me, choosing a private school education for our children has very little to do with where they will go to college. We want our children in a school that will work for them intellectually and socially and help us develop all of their potential, where ever that potential falls.

* Three of my four great grandmothers had college degrees, and 1 actually had an Ivy grad degree, also 3 of 4 great grandfathers, 2 of which with grad degrees also, and all grandparents and parents of course, too. This is what I mean by a "rich educational background."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Perhaps its only the parents who are graduates of an ivy that feel this way but, somehow I suspect that is not the case.

I see it most frequently among people who went to school they think of as one step below the Ivies. In some cases, they think a different degree would have made all the difference in their lives. In others, it's just a desire for upward mobility over the generations and the assumption that Ivies are the next rung.

Among the people I know (small/non-random sample) who went to Ivies, there's no comparable assumption that a degree from an Ivy is some kind of magic ticket (to whatever -- wealth, success, happiness). There are certainly "old school tie" types and generally competitive types who would feel like they screwed up if their kids didn't go to their (or a) prestigious college as well. But that's a different stake than the golden ticket thing.

Some large public schools also have strong alumn networks; it's not just small private schools (and Ivies). Maybe the Ivy difference is the assumption that the credential impresses non-alumns, which is a non-networky form of power or status.

I do wonder whether private high school gives high-performing but not exceptional kids an edge (over public school kids) for admissions to selective liberal arts colleges or whether that's just a kind of demographic overlap -- i.e. affluent families who are willing to shell out serious $$ to get their kids into good schools and who will do fairly exhaustive research or hire consultants to find the best match do this for both HS and college. So they find the hidden gems even when their family background doesn't lead them there. The parents of public school kids are less likely to have those kind of resources. And certainly some of the private schools seem to pour lots of resources into college counseling.