"AAP is not a gifted program"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow y'all.

We moved here last year from Edmond, OK, and people really need to take a step back and realize Fairfax County is no different than many, many other areas that have pockets of well-educated, relatively affluent populations. (Sorry, but it's true.) Fairfax has a very unusual delivery model with AAP that is not a reflection of how many "brilliant" kids that are here or that they have unusual needs vs. kids across the country, but because it has morphed into a behemoth to accommodate pushy parents.

In Edmond more than 30% of the school population is identified as gifted. The in-school services are superb.

Fairfax County has superb in school services with advanced math, differentiation and level three pull outs. They also have superb services with the level four centers for the kids at the top.

The drama is mostly fueled by parent jealousy, particularly on dcum.

AAP is not a gifted program. Kids who would need specialized services are well beyond the 130ish WISC (and lower) that gets kids admitted. 95% of the kids in AAP would do exactly the same with Level III pull outs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are kidding yourself if you think our kids are getting an advanced education in AAP. The stuff they are doing is nowhere near as creative as the average public school in Minnesota. I had the privelege of attending an American school overseas, and learned the hard way that America is ridiculously behind the rest of the world when it comes to education.

FCPS has watered down the AAP program so it is almost just regular school with more homework. The ONLY real difference is possible exposure to more advanced math, if that happens to be your child's area.

- signed parent of two AAP students who is not impressed

My sister lives in Colorado, and at her middle school (West) in the Cherry Creek School district, there are sixth graders walking over to the nearby high school (Cherry Creek) for Calculus.

People who think AAP is the premier gifted program in the country are deluding themselves.

If the school has multiple sixth graders taking calculus at the high school then they are not teaching math correctly. There is no way they have that many prodigies and even less likely the kids have the proper foundation as eleven year olds to do calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow y'all.

We moved here last year from Edmond, OK, and people really need to take a step back and realize Fairfax County is no different than many, many other areas that have pockets of well-educated, relatively affluent populations. (Sorry, but it's true.) Fairfax has a very unusual delivery model with AAP that is not a reflection of how many "brilliant" kids that are here or that they have unusual needs vs. kids across the country, but because it has morphed into a behemoth to accommodate pushy parents.

In Edmond more than 30% of the school population is identified as gifted. The in-school services are superb.

Don't you get that is the complaint here: too easy to get into! Edmund has 30% in it because a 97% on the NNAT or two sections of the CogAT are a basis for automatic admission. Here, you'd need a 98% To be automatically CONSIDERED in the possible pool of applicants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow y'all.

We moved here last year from Edmond, OK, and people really need to take a step back and realize Fairfax County is no different than many, many other areas that have pockets of well-educated, relatively affluent populations. (Sorry, but it's true.) Fairfax has a very unusual delivery model with AAP that is not a reflection of how many "brilliant" kids that are here or that they have unusual needs vs. kids across the country, but because it has morphed into a behemoth to accommodate pushy parents.

In Edmond more than 30% of the school population is identified as gifted. The in-school services are superb.

Fairfax County has superb in school services with advanced math, differentiation and level three pull outs. They also have superb services with the level four centers for the kids at the top.

The drama is mostly fueled by parent jealousy, particularly on dcum.

AAP is not a gifted program. Kids who would need specialized services are well beyond the 130ish WISC (and lower) that gets kids admitted. 95% of the kids in AAP would do exactly the same with Level III pull outs.

Just because it isn't as restrictive as you would like doesn't mean it's not a gifted program.

[Anonymous]

http://edmondschools.net/programs/gifted-talented/

Elementary Enrichment Pull-Out Classes offer more depth and breadth than the regular classroom and move at a faster pace. Classes meet one-half day each week and provide an opportunity for gifted students to be with other students who learn, think and perceive in the same way they do. Teaching units are based on a theme or concept that incorporates higher level thinking, problem solving, and research skills

Middle Schools

Enrichment is an elective course taught by a teacher who specializes in gifted and talented education. The subject matter varies from school to school, and is differentiated to meet the needs of learners in content, process and product. Middle schools also offer Pre-AP courses in mathematics beginning in the 6th grade and English beginning in the 8th grade. Other opportunities include Proficiency Based Promotion, independent study, special groupings, dual enrollment with a high school, creative and academic competitions, and the Duke Talent Search.

Half day pull outs once per week? 97% test score in Edmund for automatic enrollment vs 98% just to apply in fcps?

This does not sound like a superior program to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do people who want the program paired down, want these current AAP kids to be in general ed and get the general ed curriculum or do they want the general ed curriculum to change. I've been following this board for years and don't think I've ever seen a thread that proposes actual in depth concrete changes to general ed. What is wrong with general ed these days? What needs to be changed? Separate threads for elementary and middle school would be helpful. Until general ed changes are established, I don't see a lot of people successfully advocating to reduce the AAP program. Those families with kids who are on the border will fight for a larger pool of children because they want their children exposed to a curriculum at the level of AAP.

I can't speak for anyone else's thoughts, but there's no reason the vast majority of the AAP kids can't be taught in the home schools, with adjustments to the Gen Ed curriculum. Supplement the kids who are bright in math and language arts, and even science or social studies. Think of it as an expansion and enhancement of the current in-school services.

This is exactly right, and what many of us have been advocating all along. There are so many Gen Ed kids who are at an advanced level in one (or more) subjects, but not all. Just as there are many AAP kids in the same boat! Why are we separating two very similar (referring to all the kids in the middle) groups at all? Why not just offer advanced, grade-level, and remedial groupings in all subjects, for all kids, with no one locked into one particular group? Skills change, kids mature, and what worked during the first half of the year for one child may need to change during the second half. Flexible groupings would make this so easy to do. The child simply joins the group which matches his/her ability at the time. There are very, very few kids who actually need a segregated learning environment, such as a center. And why FCPS has made this their model, I really don't know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:http://edmondschools.net/programs/gifted-talented/

Elementary Enrichment Pull-Out Classes offer more depth and breadth than the regular classroom and move at a faster pace. Classes meet one-half day each week and provide an opportunity for gifted students to be with other students who learn, think and perceive in the same way they do. Teaching units are based on a theme or concept that incorporates higher level thinking, problem solving, and research skills

Middle Schools

Enrichment is an elective course taught by a teacher who specializes in gifted and talented education. The subject matter varies from school to school, and is differentiated to meet the needs of learners in content, process and product. Middle schools also offer Pre-AP courses in mathematics beginning in the 6th grade and English beginning in the 8th grade. Other opportunities include Proficiency Based Promotion, independent study, special groupings, dual enrollment with a high school, creative and academic competitions, and the Duke Talent Search.

Half day pull outs once per week? 97% test score in Edmund for automatic enrollment vs 98% just to apply in fcps?

This does not sound like a superior program to me.

Sounds a lot like the program in Texas I did, back in elementary school. That was 1 day per week, so slightly more. AAP is quite different from this sort of program, better or worse, I can't say. But very different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:95th national percentile is not the same as 95th percentile in Fairfax County.

Take the top 2% in the county, put them in what had always been known as a gifted program, and move on. Set the bar high in General Ed with appropriate differentiation.

Problem is AAP has become so large that exclusion is considered a slight. Scale down the program, and the bulk of the parents will have nothing to complain about because their child didn't make such a stringent cut.

YES! Almost all of the issues stem from the fact parents can't stand for their child to be excluded from a program that in some schools includes a high percentage of a grade. Make AAP truly for the top 2% or 5% of our demographics. The parent of the kid in the top 6th percent won't be happy, but it's different being part of 94% rather than 70%.

And since so many above-average kids will remain in home schools, up the ante there!

Yes, because the primary goal of a great AAP design should be to offend the least number of parents! Forget the kids - let's protect parental egos.

Which is funny coming from someone who is adamant that AAP not return to a smaller, more selective program because you know full well your child wouldn't qualify. You seem to enjoy the AAP label more than anybody. God forbid your snowflake is sent marching back to Gen Ed. The shame!

[Anonymous]

http://www.cherrycreekschools.org/GT/Pages/default.aspx

Cherry Creek seems like it has a good gifted program (hard to tell though because their website is big on buzzwords but short on details"

BUT... Their website says that it views the top FIVE to SEVEN percent of students gifted. So they are taking down past 93-95% on national achievement tests...3-5 points lower than fcps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And btw you're the one who wants a lower proportion of AA kids in AAP by making it more restrictive.

No, you are missing the point. The program should be treated like a special needs program. Kids that are so advanced they aren't really able to participate in regular classrooms should be placed in an environment that helps them achieve their potential.

The rest of them should be TOGETHER. Helping each other, learning from each other, challenging each other. The idea is to bring the bottom UP, not the top DOWN.

Be careful for what you wish. If the gifted program were treated like special education, then Least Restrictive Environment would prevail and it would lead to the end of the Center model and the local level IV program would be it - with the exception of a handful of students and they would be bused across the county to the one program that meets their needs.

I would be OK with this if there were at least a few centers so the commute wasn't so long for DC.

I would have absolutely no problem with AAP being treated as a special needs program, for kids who actually need it. Not for the mainstream masses, as we have at our center school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://edmondschools.net/programs/gifted-talented/

Elementary Enrichment Pull-Out Classes offer more depth and breadth than the regular classroom and move at a faster pace. Classes meet one-half day each week and provide an opportunity for gifted students to be with other students who learn, think and perceive in the same way they do. Teaching units are based on a theme or concept that incorporates higher level thinking, problem solving, and research skills

Middle Schools

Enrichment is an elective course taught by a teacher who specializes in gifted and talented education. The subject matter varies from school to school, and is differentiated to meet the needs of learners in content, process and product. Middle schools also offer Pre-AP courses in mathematics beginning in the 6th grade and English beginning in the 8th grade. Other opportunities include Proficiency Based Promotion, independent study, special groupings, dual enrollment with a high school, creative and academic competitions, and the Duke Talent Search.

Half day pull outs once per week? 97% test score in Edmund for automatic enrollment vs 98% just to apply in fcps?

This does not sound like a superior program to me.

Sounds a lot like the program in Texas I did, back in elementary school. That was 1 day per week, so slightly more. AAP is quite different from this sort of program, better or worse, I can't say. But very different.

My neice did a weekly program like this back in Missouri (one full day). By fifth or sixth grade the kids started getting embarrassed by the pull outs and didn't always want to do them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You are kidding yourself if you think our kids are getting an advanced education in AAP. The stuff they are doing is nowhere near as creative as the average public school in Minnesota. I had the privelege of attending an American school overseas, and learned the hard way that America is ridiculously behind the rest of the world when it comes to education.

FCPS has watered down the AAP program so it is almost just regular school with more homework. The ONLY real difference is possible exposure to more advanced math, if that happens to be your child's area.

- signed parent of two AAP students who is not impressed

Totally agree, which is why I have to laugh at parents who insist General Ed kids couldn't possibly do the AAP curriculum. Our center principal has stated more than once that it's something every child could do. As another poster pointed out, it isn't neurosurgery.

[Anonymous]

Palo Alto suspended its gifted program back in 2012.

http://www.pausd.org/gifted-talented-education

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Other than Montgomery County which spends considerably more per child than FCPS and doesn't teach advanced math in general ed, what other school systems are teaching advanced instruction better than FCPS?

Palo Alto. Cambridge MA. Oak Park / River Forest IL.

You really need to know what you're talking about before you hold up FCPS as the national standard.
http://www.op97.org/teach-learn/Elementary-School.cfm

NP here. Genuinely curious about the programs you listed. How do they do screening, and what kind of services do they provide?

I'm not the person who shared that link, but I did click on it. It details the screening process and the service model. I like the identification process:

Students are required to meet two out of the three criteria listed below.
MAP Assessment 95% + on 2 of the most 3 recent assessments
CogAT Standard Age Score 130-150
Teacher Observation Checklist Reviewed by GTDs

Seems clear, and allows for aptitude, attitude and performance without overweighting any. It also allows for students to be ID'd in either Math or Language Arts, and placed appropriately. In AAP, there are students who are amazing at one but not the other, yet all get lumped in.

I'm not sure why people are adamant that AAP is the "best" model and anything else would be impossible to administer or be sub par.

+100
I especially like that kids can be ID'd in either Math or Language Arts. Kind of tired of the huge emphasis on math kids, STEM kids, etc. Plenty of kids in Gen Ed are highly advanced in Language Arts but not Math, and this seems to be what kept them out of AAP. And yet, many AAP kids aren't advanced across the board. So what, really, is the point?

[Anonymous]

http://www.op97.org/teach-learn/Elementary-School.cfm

Oak Park Illinois seems much more limited than fcps and has far fewer opportunities to identify GT kids. However, their low cogat level 130 is lower than fcps.

If there is one thing fcps seems to do better than anyone else is that it goes above and beyond to ensure that it misses as few kids as possible for this service.