Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

[Anonymous]

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over 17% of students at Miner are homeless. Providing a curriculum that transfers well to other schools, and can be joined mid-year if necessary, is very important for those students. I cannot think of something much more opposed to that than Mandarin immersion.

However, if the hope is to get a program like Tyler's where there are single and dual-language classrooms in each grade, and the organizers expect all the homeless kids will go in the English-only track, I commend them for their creativity. Some parents will do almost anything--including have their kids learn a language most of them cannot support at home--in order to keep away from poor people.

I love you! This is Tyler- and the push behind dual language options at schools.

Yes. God forbid we do something to attract middle or upper class people to their neighborhood school. The horror.

In the school but away from the poors. You want the segregation. The current curriculum at Miner and teachers aren't bad actually. What you don't want is to be with the very at risk kids, I get it. But the mandarin idea at Miner just sounds like a way to keep your snowflakes in bubble wrap. The links the PP provided support immersion but not true integration of dual-language programs. I love how PS3 and younger parents have it all figured out. Really, go check out Tyler in the upper grades. Not your utopia by any stretch. The entire idea is daft.

....

No, you're racist and elitist. Yes, white IB kids should go to Miner. They should NOT GET a "separate school" within the damn school! They're not better than the other children!!!

http://www.greatschools.org/washington-dc/washington/4-Miner-Elementary-School/

Please tell me how the curriculum at Miner is succeeding again... What's your solution to increase the student population and keep the school from actually closing for lack of enrollment?

People who have a way to give their kids a better start, be they white, black, asian, hispanic, or purple, will take that option. You owe that to your kids.

Why go to the assumption that parent's don't want their child around at-risk kids? Why not make the logical leap that parents want a quality education for their child?

And guess what? Parent's of PK3 aren't stupid and naive as you suppose above. I could throw that assumption back at you and say that parents of older children don't have anything figured out because their kid is in a failing school.

I'll not accuse you of being daft or racist, or an elitist as you have done to others, but I would suggest you look in the mirror and ask yourself if assuming others have nefarious plans is helping you achieve your goals and if that's the attitude you would want to pass on to your children.

Throwing accusations around and screaming racism isn't helping anyone's cause, including your own. Rationally having a discussion and even providing examples of your own experience without demonizing anyone so as to further the discussion would help all of us.

Adding Mandarin (or any language immersion program) does not improve the base curriculum at the school. Obviously I agree that they need improvements there. But I fundamentally disagree that a language immersion program will help. This isn't theoretical. These types of programs have been implemented elsewhere in DCPS. AGAIN, see Tyler. Adding the language immersion has not done ANYTHING to help the curriculum of the traditional program. Children in the traditional program receive a markedly worse education than those in the Spanish Immersion program. And as a PP mentioned, at Miner, there is a sizeable transient population. They aren't going to be able to jump into an immersion program, so they're stuck back in the regular program, WHICH WILL SEE NO IMPROVEMENT AT ALL.

[warrenox]

Anonymous wrote:

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over 17% of students at Miner are homeless. Providing a curriculum that transfers well to other schools, and can be joined mid-year if necessary, is very important for those students. I cannot think of something much more opposed to that than Mandarin immersion.

However, if the hope is to get a program like Tyler's where there are single and dual-language classrooms in each grade, and the organizers expect all the homeless kids will go in the English-only track, I commend them for their creativity. Some parents will do almost anything--including have their kids learn a language most of them cannot support at home--in order to keep away from poor people.

I love you! This is Tyler- and the push behind dual language options at schools.

Yes. God forbid we do something to attract middle or upper class people to their neighborhood school. The horror.

In the school but away from the poors. You want the segregation. The current curriculum at Miner and teachers aren't bad actually. What you don't want is to be with the very at risk kids, I get it. But the mandarin idea at Miner just sounds like a way to keep your snowflakes in bubble wrap. The links the PP provided support immersion but not true integration of dual-language programs. I love how PS3 and younger parents have it all figured out. Really, go check out Tyler in the upper grades. Not your utopia by any stretch. The entire idea is daft.

....

No, you're racist and elitist. Yes, white IB kids should go to Miner. They should NOT GET a "separate school" within the damn school! They're not better than the other children!!!

http://www.greatschools.org/washington-dc/washington/4-Miner-Elementary-School/

Please tell me how the curriculum at Miner is succeeding again... What's your solution to increase the student population and keep the school from actually closing for lack of enrollment?

People who have a way to give their kids a better start, be they white, black, asian, hispanic, or purple, will take that option. You owe that to your kids.

Why go to the assumption that parent's don't want their child around at-risk kids? Why not make the logical leap that parents want a quality education for their child?

And guess what? Parent's of PK3 aren't stupid and naive as you suppose above. I could throw that assumption back at you and say that parents of older children don't have anything figured out because their kid is in a failing school.

I'll not accuse you of being daft or racist, or an elitist as you have done to others, but I would suggest you look in the mirror and ask yourself if assuming others have nefarious plans is helping you achieve your goals and if that's the attitude you would want to pass on to your children.

Throwing accusations around and screaming racism isn't helping anyone's cause, including your own. Rationally having a discussion and even providing examples of your own experience without demonizing anyone so as to further the discussion would help all of us.

Adding Mandarin (or any language immersion program) does not improve the base curriculum at the school. Obviously I agree that they need improvements there. But I fundamentally disagree that a language immersion program will help. This isn't theoretical. These types of programs have been implemented elsewhere in DCPS. AGAIN, see Tyler. Adding the language immersion has not done ANYTHING to help the curriculum of the traditional program. Children in the traditional program receive a markedly worse education than those in the Spanish Immersion program. And as a PP mentioned, at Miner, there is a sizeable transient population. They aren't going to be able to jump into an immersion program, so they're stuck back in the regular program, WHICH WILL SEE NO IMPROVEMENT AT ALL.

I agree with your post mostly. I would say that adding enrollment actually increases funding for a school and allocation of resources for specialized teachers (i.e., science teacher) that has been lost at Miner due to the declining enrollment.

There needs to be a parallel discussion on how to improve the curriculum at the school, but that shouldn't preclude or dissuade looking into a immersion program as well. Both can happen if there is the push; this shouldn't be a either/or proposition, as it appears to be at Tyler. We can't look at Tyler and say because this school isn't the model we would like, we should keep status quo. We should look at the successes and failures of that program, and work to improve upon where they fail. There are many successful programs around the country; we should expect and demand DCPS to replicate those success stories.

[Anonymous]

Are we sure it's the curriculum? Would Montessori or IB or Creative Curriculum or using different textbooks really be the issue, if the problem is kids coming in below grade level, enrolling mid-year, or having behavior problems (some of which are caused by living situations outside of the school)?

First identify the problem. If in-bounds families are literally not choosing the school because they would prefer Reggio vs. Tools of the Mind or something, then it's worth exploring. But I am guessing that is not the real problem: it's behavior issues, or how the kids look, or low test scores, and curriculum solves none of those.

[warrenox]

Anonymous wrote:Are we sure it's the curriculum? Would Montessori or IB or Creative Curriculum or using different textbooks really be the issue, if the problem is kids coming in below grade level, enrolling mid-year, or having behavior problems (some of which are caused by living situations outside of the school)?

First identify the problem. If in-bounds families are literally not choosing the school because they would prefer Reggio vs. Tools of the Mind or something, then it's worth exploring. But I am guessing that is not the real problem: it's behavior issues, or how the kids look, or low test scores, and curriculum solves none of those.

Good point.

I would say that you need to encourage more inbound kids to the school and if immersion is a way to get more kids into the school, then it's worth exploring. I would assume that some of those at-risk students have issues at home which causes problems focusing and behavioral issues at school. I would also suppose that there are some of those at-risk students that don't have those kinds of issues which would benefit from being exposed to immersion or reggio, a different curriculum, etc... themselves.

A school needs to have as many tools in it's belt as there are differences in students. You cannot just have a screwdriver and try to drive home a nail. Increased enrollment, increased funding. Could that lead to a specialist in behavioral issues and other problems some kids may face? I don't know.... it's worth looking at all angles.

[Anonymous]

A lot of people might consider the school if they knew their kids would learn in a positive environment without intense behavioral problems. If DCPS has a plan to address that, there might be more interest. Differentiation cannot work when 10% of the kids require all of the teacher's time. Differentiation works when all are in a close range of compatibility.

[Gimbiya]

Just an update for those part of the community conversation about an Immersion Program.
There is now a Facebook Page (Immersion for Miner) and a Twitter Feed (Immersion4Miner).

[Anonymous]

Stupid question- does it HAVE to be Mandarin?

[warrenox]

Anonymous wrote:Stupid question- does it HAVE to be Mandarin?

I believe that DCPS will choose the language by what is available to them. DCPS knows that Yu Ying has extensive waiting lists for their Mandarin program.
It will not be Spanish because they already have immersion schools for Spanish.

I have had reservations about Mandarin as well, but after reading and understanding that Elementary kids can soak up Mandarin as easily as French or Spanish at that age, then my uneasiness was alleviated.

The benefits of a child being exposed to Mandarin at such a young age is that they are learning a Level 5 language (language difficulty ranking based on learning a language as a adult). If you learn a higher level language, it becomes immensely easier to learn a lower level language later in life. So if you wanted your kid to learn French or Spanish, he/she will have a easier time with it because of their exposure to Mandarin at the Elementary level.

[Anonymous]

^ Interesting. Could you site any sources?

[Anonymous]

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stupid question- does it HAVE to be Mandarin?

I believe that DCPS will choose the language by what is available to them. DCPS knows that Yu Ying has extensive waiting lists for their Mandarin program.
It will not be Spanish because they already have immersion schools for Spanish.

I have had reservations about Mandarin as well, but after reading and understanding that Elementary kids can soak up Mandarin as easily as French or Spanish at that age, then my uneasiness was alleviated.

The benefits of a child being exposed to Mandarin at such a young age is that they are learning a Level 6 language (language difficulty ranking based on learning a language as a adult). If you learn a higher level language, it becomes immensely easier to learn a lower level language later in life. So if you wanted your kid to learn French or Spanish, he/she will have a easier time with it because of their exposure to Mandarin at the Elementary level.

I agree with everything you're saying, BUT, I don't see how people will be drawn to AND STAY IN a school with a 20% proficiency rate across the board when the language is Mandarin. Honestly it's hard enough to support the Spanish language in a place where so many kids have access to spanish speakers. I can't imagine how that would even be possible with Mandarin.

[Anonymous]

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stupid question- does it HAVE to be Mandarin?

I believe that DCPS will choose the language by what is available to them. DCPS knows that Yu Ying has extensive waiting lists for their Mandarin program.
It will not be Spanish because they already have immersion schools for Spanish.

Yu Ying has an extensive waiting list for many reasons that have nothing to do with Mandarin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over 17% of students at Miner are homeless. Providing a curriculum that transfers well to other schools, and can be joined mid-year if necessary, is very important for those students. I cannot think of something much more opposed to that than Mandarin immersion.

However, if the hope is to get a program like Tyler's where there are single and dual-language classrooms in each grade, and the organizers expect all the homeless kids will go in the English-only track, I commend them for their creativity. Some parents will do almost anything--including have their kids learn a language most of them cannot support at home--in order to keep away from poor people.

I love you! This is Tyler- and the push behind dual language options at schools.

Yes. God forbid we do something to attract middle or upper class people to their neighborhood school. The horror.

In the school but away from the poors. You want the segregation. The current curriculum at Miner and teachers aren't bad actually. What you don't want is to be with the very at risk kids, I get it. But the mandarin idea at Miner just sounds like a way to keep your snowflakes in bubble wrap. The links the PP provided support immersion but not true integration of dual-language programs. I love how PS3 and younger parents have it all figured out. Really, go check out Tyler in the upper grades. Not your utopia by any stretch. The entire idea is daft.

....

No, you're racist and elitist. Yes, white IB kids should go to Miner. They should NOT GET a "separate school" within the damn school! They're not better than the other children!!!

http://www.greatschools.org/washington-dc/washington/4-Miner-Elementary-School/

Please tell me how the curriculum at Miner is succeeding again... What's your solution to increase the student population and keep the school from actually closing for lack of enrollment?

People who have a way to give their kids a better start, be they white, black, asian, hispanic, or purple, will take that option. You owe that to your kids.

Why go to the assumption that parent's don't want their child around at-risk kids? Why not make the logical leap that parents want a quality education for their child?

And guess what? Parent's of PK3 aren't stupid and naive as you suppose above. I could throw that assumption back at you and say that parents of older children don't have anything figured out because their kid is in a failing school.

I'll not accuse you of being daft or racist, or an elitist as you have done to others, but I would suggest you look in the mirror and ask yourself if assuming others have nefarious plans is helping you achieve your goals and if that's the attitude you would want to pass on to your children.

Throwing accusations around and screaming racism isn't helping anyone's cause, including your own. Rationally having a discussion and even providing examples of your own experience without demonizing anyone so as to further the discussion would help all of us.

Adding Mandarin (or any language immersion program) does not improve the base curriculum at the school. Obviously I agree that they need improvements there. But I fundamentally disagree that a language immersion program will help. This isn't theoretical. These types of programs have been implemented elsewhere in DCPS. AGAIN, see Tyler. Adding the language immersion has not done ANYTHING to help the curriculum of the traditional program. Children in the traditional program receive a markedly worse education than those in the Spanish Immersion program. And as a PP mentioned, at Miner, there is a sizeable transient population. They aren't going to be able to jump into an immersion program, so they're stuck back in the regular program, WHICH WILL SEE NO IMPROVEMENT AT ALL.

No one said "white kids are better" but the fact is the high SES kids are often two grades ahead of their counterparts in the classroom DCPS could solve this with a test in gifted program so people wouldn't have to find ways to get a challenging education for their kids. I think Mandarin at Miner is ridiculous personally has there will be no way for low income families to fully support their kids and with the high number of homeless kids they have serious other learning and social needs to be met. If the kids are unable to read in English is starting Mandarin feasbile. At least make is Spanish which is much more useful. So yes. by third grade many parents do want their kids "away from the poors" but not because they are poor but becuse they can longer ignore the achievement gap in the classroom. And here is a newsflash, the best teachers CANNOT differentiate that much in the classroom. The teaching will always be geared to helping the slowest kids. So the "snowflakes" that every seems to hate are sitting there doing pointless work or tutoring classmates. Its just a fact.

[Anonymous]

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stupid question- does it HAVE to be Mandarin?

I believe that DCPS will choose the language by what is available to them. DCPS knows that Yu Ying has extensive waiting lists for their Mandarin program.
It will not be Spanish because they already have immersion schools for Spanish.

I have had reservations about Mandarin as well, but after reading and understanding that Elementary kids can soak up Mandarin as easily as French or Spanish at that age, then my uneasiness was alleviated.

The benefits of a child being exposed to Mandarin at such a young age is that they are learning a Level 6 language (language difficulty ranking based on learning a language as a adult). If you learn a higher level language, it becomes immensely easier to learn a lower level language later in life. So if you wanted your kid to learn French or Spanish, he/she will have a easier time with it because of their exposure to Mandarin at the Elementary level.

I agree with everything you're saying, BUT, I don't see how people will be drawn to AND STAY IN a school with a 20% proficiency rate across the board when the language is Mandarin. Honestly it's hard enough to support the Spanish language in a place where so many kids have access to spanish speakers. I can't imagine how that would even be possible with Mandarin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stupid question- does it HAVE to be Mandarin?

I believe that DCPS will choose the language by what is available to them. DCPS knows that Yu Ying has extensive waiting lists for their Mandarin program.
It will not be Spanish because they already have immersion schools for Spanish.

I have had reservations about Mandarin as well, but after reading and understanding that Elementary kids can soak up Mandarin as easily as French or Spanish at that age, then my uneasiness was alleviated.

The benefits of a child being exposed to Mandarin at such a young age is that they are learning a Level 6 language (language difficulty ranking based on learning a language as a adult). If you learn a higher level language, it becomes immensely easier to learn a lower level language later in life. So if you wanted your kid to learn French or Spanish, he/she will have a easier time with it because of their exposure to Mandarin at the Elementary level.

I agree with everything you're saying, BUT, I don't see how people will be drawn to AND STAY IN a school with a 20% proficiency rate across the board when the language is Mandarin. Honestly it's hard enough to support the Spanish language in a place where so many kids have access to spanish speakers. I can't imagine how that would even be possible with Mandarin.

Sorry for the duplicate post. I would also add that it makes no sense to say, oh we've got too many spanish programs as it is considering the waitlists for these spanish DCPS schools. Even the disaster that is Tyler has an almost 100 child waitlist for pk3.

[warrenox]

Anonymous wrote:

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stupid question- does it HAVE to be Mandarin?

I believe that DCPS will choose the language by what is available to them. DCPS knows that Yu Ying has extensive waiting lists for their Mandarin program.
It will not be Spanish because they already have immersion schools for Spanish.

Yu Ying has an extensive waiting list for many reasons that have nothing to do with Mandarin.

What is the substantial difference of Yu Ying from other charter schools? If the extensive waiting list isn't for Mandarin, please let me know what it would be... Because it certainly appears that Mandarin is the incentive to get these kids and their parents who are invested in their child's education.