Grinders and strivers and curators, oh my!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you genuinely not get that there's a difference between a grinder and someone who works really hard because they are genuinely and intrinsically passionate about some cause other than prestige or self-promotion?

I've known both types of students. It can be really hard to tell them apart on the surface. I'm sure admissions committees make mistakes all the tie.

My first gen immigrant parents worked really hard to provide a better quality of life for future generations. They didn’t have the luxury of being “genuinely and intrinsically passionate” about their jobs. It sounds like you would use term “grinder” pejoratively regarding people like them?

Dp
They had passion for money
Chill

Wrong

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am now starting to see that many of you think “grinder” just means hard working, so maybe I better be careful about using it pejoratively. But I still don’t think that’s what most people mean when they use the term

Agree that most people do not use the definition "merely hard working" for "grinder". Clearly some here do, but I doubt it is the most common meaning.

+1. But even amongst the people claiming that grinder means merely hard working, I don’t think most of them truly believe that. I think they realize that the negative strivery, grinder behavior being described here hits a little too close to home. And they feel the need to try to redirect it to “oh they’re just jealous because I/my kid are hard working and more successful.”

I can understand being confused by the term striver the first time you hear it here but after that it is pretty obvious what it refers to. We’ve all experienced strivery people in our lives, and if you haven’t, you might be the striver.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pejorative associations are kind of rooted in its English heritage.
In Britain, it is unseemly to strive. It all should come naturally. Think about all the British explorations that were so amateurishly executed with tragic and fatal consequences. All because one (the organizer) should not appear to be trying so hard.
Maybe it comes from their resignation to social class structure. Michelle Obama was derided as a striver by their press which is kind of hard to understand. Her work hard ethic and pull yourself up by the bootstraps is actually very American. I guess the British dont do that.

I don't think the pejorative associations have to do with work ethic. Yes, that may have been true in aristocratic times, when the gentry didn't work, but this is modern America. Notice that when you describe a student as "hard working" most people would not consider this description pejorative. "Hard working" is a positive trait. There is additional meaning associated with "grinder" and "striver" as it applies to college students and that's the part that carries the negative weight.

The additional meaning is ascribed by those seeking to devalue the hard work put in by other students so their students look better.

Nope. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

What’s the difference?

Let’s take two hard working kids. Both Asian if you like. One loves physics and enthusiastically studies it. Genuinely contributes to class discussions, helps his friends when they struggle. Second kid doesn’t give a darn about linguistics but heard it was an undersubscribed major and his best shot of getting into Harvard. He’ll drop the major for something else that will get him to Wall Street. Will only talk in class if participation is graded or if the teacher is a letter writer. And why would he help his friends if they are competing with him in college apps. Which one is the striver? It’s not hard to tell!

Spot on.

It’s interesting that this has been explained multiple times now and yet there are still commenters saying things like “it’s a way for people to put down kids that are smarter or harder working than their own kid.” Lot of cognitive dissonance from striver/grinder parents.

Perhaps because people disagree with this “explanation.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pejorative associations are kind of rooted in its English heritage.
In Britain, it is unseemly to strive. It all should come naturally. Think about all the British explorations that were so amateurishly executed with tragic and fatal consequences. All because one (the organizer) should not appear to be trying so hard.
Maybe it comes from their resignation to social class structure. Michelle Obama was derided as a striver by their press which is kind of hard to understand. Her work hard ethic and pull yourself up by the bootstraps is actually very American. I guess the British dont do that.

I don't think the pejorative associations have to do with work ethic. Yes, that may have been true in aristocratic times, when the gentry didn't work, but this is modern America. Notice that when you describe a student as "hard working" most people would not consider this description pejorative. "Hard working" is a positive trait. There is additional meaning associated with "grinder" and "striver" as it applies to college students and that's the part that carries the negative weight.

The additional meaning is ascribed by those seeking to devalue the hard work put in by other students so their students look better.

Nope. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

What’s the difference?

Let’s take two hard working kids. Both Asian if you like. One loves physics and enthusiastically studies it. Genuinely contributes to class discussions, helps his friends when they struggle. Second kid doesn’t give a darn about linguistics but heard it was an undersubscribed major and his best shot of getting into Harvard. He’ll drop the major for something else that will get him to Wall Street. Will only talk in class if participation is graded or if the teacher is a letter writer. And why would he help his friends if they are competing with him in college apps. Which one is the striver? It’s not hard to tell!

Both Asian? Really? Why would you include this sentence?

To control for race since both are the same, and to show you race doesn’t matter, and the distinction still stands. You can sub white, black, I don’t care.

Then how about saying assume two students of the same race?

Because the preceding comments were specifically trying to tie the term to being an ethnic stereotype (and even a slur) against Asians so PP was giving an example to show why that wasn’t the case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pejorative associations are kind of rooted in its English heritage.
In Britain, it is unseemly to strive. It all should come naturally. Think about all the British explorations that were so amateurishly executed with tragic and fatal consequences. All because one (the organizer) should not appear to be trying so hard.
Maybe it comes from their resignation to social class structure. Michelle Obama was derided as a striver by their press which is kind of hard to understand. Her work hard ethic and pull yourself up by the bootstraps is actually very American. I guess the British dont do that.

I don't think the pejorative associations have to do with work ethic. Yes, that may have been true in aristocratic times, when the gentry didn't work, but this is modern America. Notice that when you describe a student as "hard working" most people would not consider this description pejorative. "Hard working" is a positive trait. There is additional meaning associated with "grinder" and "striver" as it applies to college students and that's the part that carries the negative weight.

The additional meaning is ascribed by those seeking to devalue the hard work put in by other students so their students look better.

Nope. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

What’s the difference?

Let’s take two hard working kids. Both Asian if you like. One loves physics and enthusiastically studies it. Genuinely contributes to class discussions, helps his friends when they struggle. Second kid doesn’t give a darn about linguistics but heard it was an undersubscribed major and his best shot of getting into Harvard. He’ll drop the major for something else that will get him to Wall Street. Will only talk in class if participation is graded or if the teacher is a letter writer. And why would he help his friends if they are competing with him in college apps. Which one is the striver? It’s not hard to tell!

Spot on.

It’s interesting that this has been explained multiple times now and yet there are still commenters saying things like “it’s a way for people to put down kids that are smarter or harder working than their own kid.” Lot of cognitive dissonance from striver/grinder parents.

Perhaps because people disagree with this “explanation.”

Okay, so you’re just seeking out confirmation bias that the term means what you want it to mean, rather than what other people tell you they think it means. Got it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am now starting to see that many of you think “grinder” just means hard working, so maybe I better be careful about using it pejoratively. But I still don’t think that’s what most people mean when they use the term

Agree that most people do not use the definition "merely hard working" for "grinder". Clearly some here do, but I doubt it is the most common meaning.

+1. But even amongst the people claiming that grinder means merely hard working, I don’t think most of them truly believe that. I think they realize that the negative strivery, grinder behavior being described here hits a little too close to home. And they feel the need to try to redirect it to “oh they’re just jealous because I/my kid are hard working and more successful.”

I can understand being confused by the term striver the first time you hear it here but after that it is pretty obvious what it refers to. We’ve all experienced strivery people in our lives, and if you haven’t, you might be the striver.

When someone calls my immigrant parents strivers because they pulled themselves up from almost nothing, yes, that hits close to home. I am proud my family is a bunch of strivers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pejorative associations are kind of rooted in its English heritage.
In Britain, it is unseemly to strive. It all should come naturally. Think about all the British explorations that were so amateurishly executed with tragic and fatal consequences. All because one (the organizer) should not appear to be trying so hard.
Maybe it comes from their resignation to social class structure. Michelle Obama was derided as a striver by their press which is kind of hard to understand. Her work hard ethic and pull yourself up by the bootstraps is actually very American. I guess the British dont do that.

I don't think the pejorative associations have to do with work ethic. Yes, that may have been true in aristocratic times, when the gentry didn't work, but this is modern America. Notice that when you describe a student as "hard working" most people would not consider this description pejorative. "Hard working" is a positive trait. There is additional meaning associated with "grinder" and "striver" as it applies to college students and that's the part that carries the negative weight.

The additional meaning is ascribed by those seeking to devalue the hard work put in by other students so their students look better.

Nope. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

What’s the difference?

Let’s take two hard working kids. Both Asian if you like. One loves physics and enthusiastically studies it. Genuinely contributes to class discussions, helps his friends when they struggle. Second kid doesn’t give a darn about linguistics but heard it was an undersubscribed major and his best shot of getting into Harvard. He’ll drop the major for something else that will get him to Wall Street. Will only talk in class if participation is graded or if the teacher is a letter writer. And why would he help his friends if they are competing with him in college apps. Which one is the striver? It’s not hard to tell!

Both Asian? Really? Why would you include this sentence?

To control for race since both are the same, and to show you race doesn’t matter, and the distinction still stands. You can sub white, black, I don’t care.

Then how about saying assume two students of the same race?

I inserted my own race in the blank. So sue me!

If you don’t believe there is a difference between “hard working” and “striver”, then I guess go ahead and compliment people as strivers. Don’t blame me if someone gets offended.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pejorative associations are kind of rooted in its English heritage.
In Britain, it is unseemly to strive. It all should come naturally. Think about all the British explorations that were so amateurishly executed with tragic and fatal consequences. All because one (the organizer) should not appear to be trying so hard.
Maybe it comes from their resignation to social class structure. Michelle Obama was derided as a striver by their press which is kind of hard to understand. Her work hard ethic and pull yourself up by the bootstraps is actually very American. I guess the British dont do that.

I don't think the pejorative associations have to do with work ethic. Yes, that may have been true in aristocratic times, when the gentry didn't work, but this is modern America. Notice that when you describe a student as "hard working" most people would not consider this description pejorative. "Hard working" is a positive trait. There is additional meaning associated with "grinder" and "striver" as it applies to college students and that's the part that carries the negative weight.

The additional meaning is ascribed by those seeking to devalue the hard work put in by other students so their students look better.

Nope. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

What’s the difference?

Let’s take two hard working kids. Both Asian if you like. One loves physics and enthusiastically studies it. Genuinely contributes to class discussions, helps his friends when they struggle. Second kid doesn’t give a darn about linguistics but heard it was an undersubscribed major and his best shot of getting into Harvard. He’ll drop the major for something else that will get him to Wall Street. Will only talk in class if participation is graded or if the teacher is a letter writer. And why would he help his friends if they are competing with him in college apps. Which one is the striver? It’s not hard to tell!

Spot on.

It’s interesting that this has been explained multiple times now and yet there are still commenters saying things like “it’s a way for people to put down kids that are smarter or harder working than their own kid.” Lot of cognitive dissonance from striver/grinder parents.

Perhaps because people disagree with this “explanation.”

Okay, so you’re just seeking out confirmation bias that the term means what you want it to mean, rather than what other people tell you they think it means. Got it.

And want everyone to agree with you rather than accepting what they think it means. Hold up the mirror.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am now starting to see that many of you think “grinder” just means hard working, so maybe I better be careful about using it pejoratively. But I still don’t think that’s what most people mean when they use the term

Agree that most people do not use the definition "merely hard working" for "grinder". Clearly some here do, but I doubt it is the most common meaning.

+1. But even amongst the people claiming that grinder means merely hard working, I don’t think most of them truly believe that. I think they realize that the negative strivery, grinder behavior being described here hits a little too close to home. And they feel the need to try to redirect it to “oh they’re just jealous because I/my kid are hard working and more successful.”

I can understand being confused by the term striver the first time you hear it here but after that it is pretty obvious what it refers to. We’ve all experienced strivery people in our lives, and if you haven’t, you might be the striver.

When someone calls my immigrant parents strivers because they pulled themselves up from almost nothing, yes, that hits close to home. I am proud my family is a bunch of strivers.

I believe you were the only one who called them that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am now starting to see that many of you think “grinder” just means hard working, so maybe I better be careful about using it pejoratively. But I still don’t think that’s what most people mean when they use the term

Agree that most people do not use the definition "merely hard working" for "grinder". Clearly some here do, but I doubt it is the most common meaning.

+1. But even amongst the people claiming that grinder means merely hard working, I don’t think most of them truly believe that. I think they realize that the negative strivery, grinder behavior being described here hits a little too close to home. And they feel the need to try to redirect it to “oh they’re just jealous because I/my kid are hard working and more successful.”

I can understand being confused by the term striver the first time you hear it here but after that it is pretty obvious what it refers to. We’ve all experienced strivery people in our lives, and if you haven’t, you might be the striver.

When someone calls my immigrant parents strivers because they pulled themselves up from almost nothing, yes, that hits close to home. I am proud my family is a bunch of strivers.

And, again, that’s not what people are talking about when referring to high school/college students and college admissions. Words have different meanings, including over time and in different contexts. Same for grinder, gunner, and the rest being used here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing wrong with grinder, it should be applauded. IMO, in the dmv there seems to be this idea that making money for its own sake, without contributing to society, is something that’s acceptable for young people to aim for. That’s what striver and curator means to me.

Oh interesting, I think of “grinder” simply as someone who works hard, “striver” as someone who is trying to be the best they can be, and “curator” as someone who is playing the college admissions game as necessary to succeed.

same!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pejorative associations are kind of rooted in its English heritage.
In Britain, it is unseemly to strive. It all should come naturally. Think about all the British explorations that were so amateurishly executed with tragic and fatal consequences. All because one (the organizer) should not appear to be trying so hard.
Maybe it comes from their resignation to social class structure. Michelle Obama was derided as a striver by their press which is kind of hard to understand. Her work hard ethic and pull yourself up by the bootstraps is actually very American. I guess the British dont do that.

I don't think the pejorative associations have to do with work ethic. Yes, that may have been true in aristocratic times, when the gentry didn't work, but this is modern America. Notice that when you describe a student as "hard working" most people would not consider this description pejorative. "Hard working" is a positive trait. There is additional meaning associated with "grinder" and "striver" as it applies to college students and that's the part that carries the negative weight.

The additional meaning is ascribed by those seeking to devalue the hard work put in by other students so their students look better.

Nope. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

What’s the difference?

Let’s take two hard working kids. Both Asian if you like. One loves physics and enthusiastically studies it. Genuinely contributes to class discussions, helps his friends when they struggle. Second kid doesn’t give a darn about linguistics but heard it was an undersubscribed major and his best shot of getting into Harvard. He’ll drop the major for something else that will get him to Wall Street. Will only talk in class if participation is graded or if the teacher is a letter writer. And why would he help his friends if they are competing with him in college apps. Which one is the striver? It’s not hard to tell!

Spot on.

It’s interesting that this has been explained multiple times now and yet there are still commenters saying things like “it’s a way for people to put down kids that are smarter or harder working than their own kid.” Lot of cognitive dissonance from striver/grinder parents.

Perhaps because people disagree with this “explanation.”

Okay, so you’re just seeking out confirmation bias that the term means what you want it to mean, rather than what other people tell you they think it means. Got it.

And want everyone to agree with you rather than accepting what they think it means. Hold up the mirror.

But you don’t use the term pejoratively so you don’t get to decide what the people that do are referring to. See how that works?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am now starting to see that many of you think “grinder” just means hard working, so maybe I better be careful about using it pejoratively. But I still don’t think that’s what most people mean when they use the term

Agree that most people do not use the definition "merely hard working" for "grinder". Clearly some here do, but I doubt it is the most common meaning.

+1. But even amongst the people claiming that grinder means merely hard working, I don’t think most of them truly believe that. I think they realize that the negative strivery, grinder behavior being described here hits a little too close to home. And they feel the need to try to redirect it to “oh they’re just jealous because I/my kid are hard working and more successful.”

I can understand being confused by the term striver the first time you hear it here but after that it is pretty obvious what it refers to. We’ve all experienced strivery people in our lives, and if you haven’t, you might be the striver.

When someone calls my immigrant parents strivers because they pulled themselves up from almost nothing, yes, that hits close to home. I am proud my family is a bunch of strivers.

Your whole family went to an Ivy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pejorative associations are kind of rooted in its English heritage.
In Britain, it is unseemly to strive. It all should come naturally. Think about all the British explorations that were so amateurishly executed with tragic and fatal consequences. All because one (the organizer) should not appear to be trying so hard.
Maybe it comes from their resignation to social class structure. Michelle Obama was derided as a striver by their press which is kind of hard to understand. Her work hard ethic and pull yourself up by the bootstraps is actually very American. I guess the British dont do that.

I don't think the pejorative associations have to do with work ethic. Yes, that may have been true in aristocratic times, when the gentry didn't work, but this is modern America. Notice that when you describe a student as "hard working" most people would not consider this description pejorative. "Hard working" is a positive trait. There is additional meaning associated with "grinder" and "striver" as it applies to college students and that's the part that carries the negative weight.

The additional meaning is ascribed by those seeking to devalue the hard work put in by other students so their students look better.

Nope. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

What’s the difference?

Let’s take two hard working kids. Both Asian if you like. One loves physics and enthusiastically studies it. Genuinely contributes to class discussions, helps his friends when they struggle. Second kid doesn’t give a darn about linguistics but heard it was an undersubscribed major and his best shot of getting into Harvard. He’ll drop the major for something else that will get him to Wall Street. Will only talk in class if participation is graded or if the teacher is a letter writer. And why would he help his friends if they are competing with him in college apps. Which one is the striver? It’s not hard to tell!

Both Asian? Really? Why would you include this sentence?

DP. Another poster said striver was just a racist term for Asians. This person is trying to explain the difference is between the attitude of a striver and a hard worker, and you can just assume they are the same race (Asian presumably because it was brought up) because the race isn't the issue at all.

Thank you! I am Asian, btw. Back in my day we used the term gunner, and it was applied pretty equally to white or Asian or any other student who was fake, hyper-competitive and self-promoting without considering others.

Yeah we used gunner in undergrad(ivy) and again at my T5. It was mostly a joke because we were all gunners or we wouldn't have gotten there. However, there were levels: front row gunner(honest about their ambition), second row gunner(the worst--did not realize their top-gunner nature), and back row gunner(stopped gunning once they got in, knew they'd made it, but were still baseline gunners). It's all for fun!
Kid is premed BioEngineering at a different ivy and they use "grinding" or "lock in and grind" on themselves or each other all the time. They jest but they are far more collaborative than 30 years ago when I took the brutal semesters orgo and physics. The premed advising tables show higher % success for average students now than at my ivy 30 yr ago, and I have asked friends with kids at my ivy for the internal data: it has a higher %too compared to my day.
I pulled up tables and converted SATs through two SAT recentering cycles and it makes sense: Only about 1/4 were 98-99th%ile then, now it is 3/4 (pre-TO). Almost everyone there has the ability to get 510+ on the MCAT, even the below average 3.6 kids get in to US programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am now starting to see that many of you think “grinder” just means hard working, so maybe I better be careful about using it pejoratively. But I still don’t think that’s what most people mean when they use the term

Agree that most people do not use the definition "merely hard working" for "grinder". Clearly some here do, but I doubt it is the most common meaning.

+1. But even amongst the people claiming that grinder means merely hard working, I don’t think most of them truly believe that. I think they realize that the negative strivery, grinder behavior being described here hits a little too close to home. And they feel the need to try to redirect it to “oh they’re just jealous because I/my kid are hard working and more successful.”

I can understand being confused by the term striver the first time you hear it here but after that it is pretty obvious what it refers to. We’ve all experienced strivery people in our lives, and if you haven’t, you might be the striver.

When someone calls my immigrant parents strivers because they pulled themselves up from almost nothing, yes, that hits close to home. I am proud my family is a bunch of strivers.

Your whole family went to an Ivy?

huh?