Grinders and strivers and curators, oh my!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pejorative associations are kind of rooted in its English heritage.
In Britain, it is unseemly to strive. It all should come naturally. Think about all the British explorations that were so amateurishly executed with tragic and fatal consequences. All because one (the organizer) should not appear to be trying so hard.
Maybe it comes from their resignation to social class structure. Michelle Obama was derided as a striver by their press which is kind of hard to understand. Her work hard ethic and pull yourself up by the bootstraps is actually very American. I guess the British dont do that.

I don't think the pejorative associations have to do with work ethic. Yes, that may have been true in aristocratic times, when the gentry didn't work, but this is modern America. Notice that when you describe a student as "hard working" most people would not consider this description pejorative. "Hard working" is a positive trait. There is additional meaning associated with "grinder" and "striver" as it applies to college students and that's the part that carries the negative weight.

The additional meaning is ascribed by those seeking to devalue the hard work put in by other students so their students look better.

Nope. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

What’s the difference?

Let’s take two hard working kids. Both Asian if you like. One loves physics and enthusiastically studies it. Genuinely contributes to class discussions, helps his friends when they struggle. Second kid doesn’t give a darn about linguistics but heard it was an undersubscribed major and his best shot of getting into Harvard. He’ll drop the major for something else that will get him to Wall Street. Will only talk in class if participation is graded or if the teacher is a letter writer. And why would he help his friends if they are competing with him in college apps. Which one is the striver? It’s not hard to tell!

Both Asian? Really? Why would you include this sentence?

DP. Another poster said striver was just a racist term for Asians. This person is trying to explain the difference is between the attitude of a striver and a hard worker, and you can just assume they are the same race (Asian presumably because it was brought up) because the race isn't the issue at all.

Thank you! I am Asian, btw. Back in my day we used the term gunner, and it was applied pretty equally to white or Asian or any other student who was fake, hyper-competitive and self-promoting without considering others.

[Anonymous]

I am now starting to see that many of you think “grinder” just means hard working, so maybe I better be careful about using it pejoratively. But I still don’t think that’s what most people mean when they use the term

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you genuinely not get that there's a difference between a grinder and someone who works really hard because they are genuinely and intrinsically passionate about some cause other than prestige or self-promotion?

I've known both types of students. It can be really hard to tell them apart on the surface. I'm sure admissions committees make mistakes all the tie.

My first gen immigrant parents worked really hard to provide a better quality of life for future generations. They didn’t have the luxury of being “genuinely and intrinsically passionate” about their jobs. It sounds like you would use term “grinder” pejoratively regarding people like them?

Dp
They had passion for money
Chill

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Strivers” is considered racist by most because it’s a nod to Asian applicants. Avoid

Exactly. It’s a code word used by talentless, jealous and obnoxious white people to demonize brilliant Asians. The world would be a much better place without these evil a-holes.

You don’t even try to hide your ridiculous racism….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are any of these terms considered insults? What exactly is wrong with a student who grinds towards their desired college/major/career goal, strives for the best possible outcome, and curates a compelling narrative for decision-makers who control access?

People should worry about their own kids & stop trying to put others down with nasty name calling. If you can't be happy for some one else's success, keep it to yourself.

This. Striver has become a pejorative because upper class parents don’t like to see kids who are smarter and work harder pass their kids and get into better schools. So they find a way to make all that hard work and smarts into a negative. “Oh, those smart, hardworking kids are just pretending to like physics and don’t have a life outside of homework. They are just grinders. They aren’t genuine like my kid.”

BTW, lovelovelove the PP who says grinding is ok for athletes but no one else.

Reading through this thread now and I’m pretty sure that isn’t what they said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Strivers” is considered racist by most because it’s a nod to Asian applicants. Avoid

Exactly. It’s a code word used by talentless, jealous and obnoxious white people to demonize brilliant Asians. The world would be a much better place without these evil a-holes.

You don’t even try to hide your ridiculous racism….

? It’s racist to point out racism by white people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Strivers” is considered racist by most because it’s a nod to Asian applicants. Avoid

Exactly. It’s a code word used by talentless, jealous and obnoxious white people to demonize brilliant Asians. The world would be a much better place without these evil a-holes.

You don’t even try to hide your ridiculous racism….

? It’s racist to point out racism by white people?

Maybe they meant to say you were racist by claiming brilliant Asians exist. In their mind, only white people can be brilliant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Strivers” is considered racist by most because it’s a nod to Asian applicants. Avoid

Exactly. It’s a code word used by talentless, jealous and obnoxious white people to demonize brilliant Asians. The world would be a much better place without these evil a-holes.

You don’t even try to hide your ridiculous racism….

? It’s racist to point out racism by white people?

Maybe they meant to say you were racist by claiming brilliant Asians exist. In their mind, only white people can be brilliant.

Or maybe it was their last sentence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pejorative associations are kind of rooted in its English heritage.
In Britain, it is unseemly to strive. It all should come naturally. Think about all the British explorations that were so amateurishly executed with tragic and fatal consequences. All because one (the organizer) should not appear to be trying so hard.
Maybe it comes from their resignation to social class structure. Michelle Obama was derided as a striver by their press which is kind of hard to understand. Her work hard ethic and pull yourself up by the bootstraps is actually very American. I guess the British dont do that.

I don't think the pejorative associations have to do with work ethic. Yes, that may have been true in aristocratic times, when the gentry didn't work, but this is modern America. Notice that when you describe a student as "hard working" most people would not consider this description pejorative. "Hard working" is a positive trait. There is additional meaning associated with "grinder" and "striver" as it applies to college students and that's the part that carries the negative weight.

The additional meaning is ascribed by those seeking to devalue the hard work put in by other students so their students look better.

Nope. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

What’s the difference?

Let’s take two hard working kids. Both Asian if you like. One loves physics and enthusiastically studies it. Genuinely contributes to class discussions, helps his friends when they struggle. Second kid doesn’t give a darn about linguistics but heard it was an undersubscribed major and his best shot of getting into Harvard. He’ll drop the major for something else that will get him to Wall Street. Will only talk in class if participation is graded or if the teacher is a letter writer. And why would he help his friends if they are competing with him in college apps. Which one is the striver? It’s not hard to tell!

Spot on.

It’s interesting that this has been explained multiple times now and yet there are still commenters saying things like “it’s a way for people to put down kids that are smarter or harder working than their own kid.” Lot of cognitive dissonance from striver/grinder parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are any of these terms considered insults? What exactly is wrong with a student who grinds towards their desired college/major/career goal, strives for the best possible outcome, and curates a compelling narrative for decision-makers who control access?

People should worry about their own kids & stop trying to put others down with nasty name calling. If you can't be happy for some one else's success, keep it to yourself.

This. Striver has become a pejorative because upper class parents don’t like to see kids who are smarter and work harder pass their kids and get into better schools. So they find a way to make all that hard work and smarts into a negative. “Oh, those smart, hardworking kids are just pretending to like physics and don’t have a life outside of homework. They are just grinders. They aren’t genuine like my kid.”

BTW, lovelovelove the PP who says grinding is ok for athletes but no one else.

And then in the next breath they'll sneer at poor Black people for being "lazy".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pejorative associations are kind of rooted in its English heritage.
In Britain, it is unseemly to strive. It all should come naturally. Think about all the British explorations that were so amateurishly executed with tragic and fatal consequences. All because one (the organizer) should not appear to be trying so hard.
Maybe it comes from their resignation to social class structure. Michelle Obama was derided as a striver by their press which is kind of hard to understand. Her work hard ethic and pull yourself up by the bootstraps is actually very American. I guess the British dont do that.

I don't think the pejorative associations have to do with work ethic. Yes, that may have been true in aristocratic times, when the gentry didn't work, but this is modern America. Notice that when you describe a student as "hard working" most people would not consider this description pejorative. "Hard working" is a positive trait. There is additional meaning associated with "grinder" and "striver" as it applies to college students and that's the part that carries the negative weight.

The additional meaning is ascribed by those seeking to devalue the hard work put in by other students so their students look better.

Nope. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

What’s the difference?

Let’s take two hard working kids. Both Asian if you like. One loves physics and enthusiastically studies it. Genuinely contributes to class discussions, helps his friends when they struggle. Second kid doesn’t give a darn about linguistics but heard it was an undersubscribed major and his best shot of getting into Harvard. He’ll drop the major for something else that will get him to Wall Street. Will only talk in class if participation is graded or if the teacher is a letter writer. And why would he help his friends if they are competing with him in college apps. Which one is the striver? It’s not hard to tell!

And it's very, very easy to accurately diagnose this difference when someone mentions anonymous children you hear about on the Internet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pejorative associations are kind of rooted in its English heritage.
In Britain, it is unseemly to strive. It all should come naturally. Think about all the British explorations that were so amateurishly executed with tragic and fatal consequences. All because one (the organizer) should not appear to be trying so hard.
Maybe it comes from their resignation to social class structure. Michelle Obama was derided as a striver by their press which is kind of hard to understand. Her work hard ethic and pull yourself up by the bootstraps is actually very American. I guess the British dont do that.

I don't think the pejorative associations have to do with work ethic. Yes, that may have been true in aristocratic times, when the gentry didn't work, but this is modern America. Notice that when you describe a student as "hard working" most people would not consider this description pejorative. "Hard working" is a positive trait. There is additional meaning associated with "grinder" and "striver" as it applies to college students and that's the part that carries the negative weight.

The additional meaning is ascribed by those seeking to devalue the hard work put in by other students so their students look better.

Nope. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

What’s the difference?

Let’s take two hard working kids. Both Asian if you like. One loves physics and enthusiastically studies it. Genuinely contributes to class discussions, helps his friends when they struggle. Second kid doesn’t give a darn about linguistics but heard it was an undersubscribed major and his best shot of getting into Harvard. He’ll drop the major for something else that will get him to Wall Street. Will only talk in class if participation is graded or if the teacher is a letter writer. And why would he help his friends if they are competing with him in college apps. Which one is the striver? It’s not hard to tell!

Both Asian? Really? Why would you include this sentence?

DP. Another poster said striver was just a racist term for Asians. This person is trying to explain the difference is between the attitude of a striver and a hard worker, and you can just assume they are the same race (Asian presumably because it was brought up) because the race isn't the issue at all.

Thank you! I am Asian, btw. Back in my day we used the term gunner, and it was applied pretty equally to white or Asian or any other student who was fake, hyper-competitive and self-promoting without considering others.

But "gunner" didn't already have a prosocial meaning as that envious people are trying to twist, and people didn't claim that every Asian who succeeded in school is a gunner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am now starting to see that many of you think “grinder” just means hard working, so maybe I better be careful about using it pejoratively. But I still don’t think that’s what most people mean when they use the term

Agree that most people do not use the definition "merely hard working" for "grinder". Clearly some here do, but I doubt it is the most common meaning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pejorative associations are kind of rooted in its English heritage.
In Britain, it is unseemly to strive. It all should come naturally. Think about all the British explorations that were so amateurishly executed with tragic and fatal consequences. All because one (the organizer) should not appear to be trying so hard.
Maybe it comes from their resignation to social class structure. Michelle Obama was derided as a striver by their press which is kind of hard to understand. Her work hard ethic and pull yourself up by the bootstraps is actually very American. I guess the British dont do that.

I don't think the pejorative associations have to do with work ethic. Yes, that may have been true in aristocratic times, when the gentry didn't work, but this is modern America. Notice that when you describe a student as "hard working" most people would not consider this description pejorative. "Hard working" is a positive trait. There is additional meaning associated with "grinder" and "striver" as it applies to college students and that's the part that carries the negative weight.

The additional meaning is ascribed by those seeking to devalue the hard work put in by other students so their students look better.

Nope. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

What’s the difference?

Let’s take two hard working kids. Both Asian if you like. One loves physics and enthusiastically studies it. Genuinely contributes to class discussions, helps his friends when they struggle. Second kid doesn’t give a darn about linguistics but heard it was an undersubscribed major and his best shot of getting into Harvard. He’ll drop the major for something else that will get him to Wall Street. Will only talk in class if participation is graded or if the teacher is a letter writer. And why would he help his friends if they are competing with him in college apps. Which one is the striver? It’s not hard to tell!

And it's very, very easy to accurately diagnose this difference when someone mentions anonymous children you hear about on the Internet.

You are definitely willfully misunderstanding things. I did not say it was easy to diagnose in real life. I’m sure the labels are misapplied all the time. I can’t tell the difference between a nerd (slightly positive meaning) and a striver (slightly negative meaning) unless I know the people well. But the distinction exists, and it is an easy conceptual and linguistic difference to grasp. This post is about why some terms have a negative connotation. Some of us are trying to explain the linguistic difference to you, but you insist on denying that there is a meaning difference between “hard worker” and “grinder/striver.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pejorative associations are kind of rooted in its English heritage.
In Britain, it is unseemly to strive. It all should come naturally. Think about all the British explorations that were so amateurishly executed with tragic and fatal consequences. All because one (the organizer) should not appear to be trying so hard.
Maybe it comes from their resignation to social class structure. Michelle Obama was derided as a striver by their press which is kind of hard to understand. Her work hard ethic and pull yourself up by the bootstraps is actually very American. I guess the British dont do that.

I don't think the pejorative associations have to do with work ethic. Yes, that may have been true in aristocratic times, when the gentry didn't work, but this is modern America. Notice that when you describe a student as "hard working" most people would not consider this description pejorative. "Hard working" is a positive trait. There is additional meaning associated with "grinder" and "striver" as it applies to college students and that's the part that carries the negative weight.

The additional meaning is ascribed by those seeking to devalue the hard work put in by other students so their students look better.

Nope. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

What’s the difference?

Let’s take two hard working kids. Both Asian if you like. One loves physics and enthusiastically studies it. Genuinely contributes to class discussions, helps his friends when they struggle. Second kid doesn’t give a darn about linguistics but heard it was an undersubscribed major and his best shot of getting into Harvard. He’ll drop the major for something else that will get him to Wall Street. Will only talk in class if participation is graded or if the teacher is a letter writer. And why would he help his friends if they are competing with him in college apps. Which one is the striver? It’s not hard to tell!

Both Asian? Really? Why would you include this sentence?

To control for race since both are the same, and to show you race doesn’t matter, and the distinction still stands. You can sub white, black, I don’t care.

Then how about saying assume two students of the same race?