Is it better to go to a lesser school if you are went to be premed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not looking for snark, but I have one dc at UChicago and a high schooler who wants pre med. The high schooler is petrified to attend UChicago due to the "intimidating" super intellectual kids she's met through DC so far and the grade deflation. Otherwise school is a great fit. Is her fear valid? She said WashU woild be easier for pre med, but UChicago seems to do well with med school placement. We know ED UChicago and WashU is going to be make or break, so need to decide. She is capable and hardworking but older kid tested better and is more analytical, and near photographic memory, so she is worried she can't cut it. Sigh.

Since your DC already knows the culture of UChicago, have her look at less intensive academic colleges. UChicago is not for everyone. GPA is still the number one factor so even if they get their undergraduate degree at a T10 like UChicago, a third tier private like Emory, or from a lesser public like VCU, you will still need a high GPA. What a lot of people are missing is that the success of getting into medical school from T10 colleges is more a function of these students can perform really well on the MCAT rather than the name behind the school. The vast majority of T10 students are going to have high SATs which correlates to a high MCAT score.

While yes, that is true, it is also true that the most rigorous schools often prepare better for the MCAT and the rigor of med school, which is like drinking out of a firehose. These schools also have a culture of hard work outside the classroom, such that all premeds are motivated to work very hard on all aspects of their application and often have much more research and more meaningful clinical hours. Research is a huge factor for getting into T20-30 med and up. It has become almost essential for these. There are too many 3.9/518+ with all the clinicals, and these top schools are all top academic medical centers that are centered on research.
I have been directly involved in hiring at my multi-specialty adult med practice: The resumes of docs out of residency almost never listed papers from med school or undergrad 22 years ago when I started practice. I did research at an ivy back then as an undergrad and it was rare, under 15%, and it was a big tip-in to my T5 med school. Now almost all successful applicants to T20 have at least one semester of real research with a professor, you need a co-author or extensive 3 semester/multiple summer research for a T5.

Med admission consulting groups are all docs and many are former admin officers at their med schools, including myself. There are many around the DMV, and we often share data informally to discuss changes. When data from years shows that students at X and Y schools(popular SEC tupe schools) applying to med school often have 3.90+ GPA including BCPM(stem) GPA, in a science major, and almost none of them can get over a 508, yet the 3.5 (below average!)ivy+ kids easily get over 510, it tells you all you need to know about the rigor of the courses at the ivy+, as well as peer group they faced on the way! Med admissions 100% know it too, and track it!
The 3.90+ ivy kids (top third at most ivies) never pay for consulting nor would any of us honorably take their money: almost all 3.90+ have 518+. They walk into the T25 and if they have the research and volunteering/altruism profile they often score a T10 or at least big merit at a T20-30 school. Getting to go to a great or even good med school(T50) for half off or free is a huge golden ticket: attending ivy+ schools is the most likely path to get that ticket punched. Of course it does not make sense for a 1450, mix of 4s and 5s on stem AP to go to an ivy+ for med, but it is absolutely the best choice for the top 1% high schoolers.

this is helpful info - thanks for posting. i graduated med school almost 30 years ago so a lot has definitely changed. i'm relearning the process as DC is interested in pursuing medicine and just finished freshman year at cornell with 4.0+. encouraging to hear that ivy kids getting 3.9+ tend to score well on mcat. i recently joined harvard med admissions so will see what criteria they use for applicants, but my initial sense is they're looking for "future leaders in the field".

not to derail the thread but wondering what you've seen students do for their clinical hours (paid vs unpaid) as she is starting to look into options over the next few years.

There are a wide variety of clinical experiences that are considered high quality. Cornell has a detailed premed advising website that appears to have more information for current students if they register . The public facing information is quite detailed, presumably your student has already read it and looked into how advising works. Keep in mind research is highly important if targeting T10 med, as is leadership, and a 4.0 student at Cornell will likely target the T10. I realize Cornell is technically on a 4.3 scale, however 4.0 remains top notch as some courses do not give A+.

thanks - DC tells me cornell does not match premed advisor until sophomore year (probably due to freshmen dropping!) so will definitely discuss with advisors this year. they have 3 coauthor pubs and 1 first author that they presented at a national conference as a high school senior. working this summer in health policy lab and may continue remotely during school year so certainly on radar. thanks for your help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not looking for snark, but I have one dc at UChicago and a high schooler who wants pre med. The high schooler is petrified to attend UChicago due to the "intimidating" super intellectual kids she's met through DC so far and the grade deflation. Otherwise school is a great fit. Is her fear valid? She said WashU woild be easier for pre med, but UChicago seems to do well with med school placement. We know ED UChicago and WashU is going to be make or break, so need to decide. She is capable and hardworking but older kid tested better and is more analytical, and near photographic memory, so she is worried she can't cut it. Sigh.

Since your DC already knows the culture of UChicago, have her look at less intensive academic colleges. UChicago is not for everyone. GPA is still the number one factor so even if they get their undergraduate degree at a T10 like UChicago, a third tier private like Emory, or from a lesser public like VCU, you will still need a high GPA. What a lot of people are missing is that the success of getting into medical school from T10 colleges is more a function of these students can perform really well on the MCAT rather than the name behind the school. The vast majority of T10 students are going to have high SATs which correlates to a high MCAT score.

While yes, that is true, it is also true that the most rigorous schools often prepare better for the MCAT and the rigor of med school, which is like drinking out of a firehose. These schools also have a culture of hard work outside the classroom, such that all premeds are motivated to work very hard on all aspects of their application and often have much more research and more meaningful clinical hours. Research is a huge factor for getting into T20-30 med and up. It has become almost essential for these. There are too many 3.9/518+ with all the clinicals, and these top schools are all top academic medical centers that are centered on research.
I have been directly involved in hiring at my multi-specialty adult med practice: The resumes of docs out of residency almost never listed papers from med school or undergrad 22 years ago when I started practice. I did research at an ivy back then as an undergrad and it was rare, under 15%, and it was a big tip-in to my T5 med school. Now almost all successful applicants to T20 have at least one semester of real research with a professor, you need a co-author or extensive 3 semester/multiple summer research for a T5.

Med admission consulting groups are all docs and many are former admin officers at their med schools, including myself. There are many around the DMV, and we often share data informally to discuss changes. When data from years shows that students at X and Y schools(popular SEC tupe schools) applying to med school often have 3.90+ GPA including BCPM(stem) GPA, in a science major, and almost none of them can get over a 508, yet the 3.5 (below average!)ivy+ kids easily get over 510, it tells you all you need to know about the rigor of the courses at the ivy+, as well as peer group they faced on the way! Med admissions 100% know it too, and track it!
The 3.90+ ivy kids (top third at most ivies) never pay for consulting nor would any of us honorably take their money: almost all 3.90+ have 518+. They walk into the T25 and if they have the research and volunteering/altruism profile they often score a T10 or at least big merit at a T20-30 school. Getting to go to a great or even good med school(T50) for half off or free is a huge golden ticket: attending ivy+ schools is the most likely path to get that ticket punched. Of course it does not make sense for a 1450, mix of 4s and 5s on stem AP to go to an ivy+ for med, but it is absolutely the best choice for the top 1% high schoolers.

this is helpful info - thanks for posting. i graduated med school almost 30 years ago so a lot has definitely changed. i'm relearning the process as DC is interested in pursuing medicine and just finished freshman year at cornell with 4.0+. encouraging to hear that ivy kids getting 3.9+ tend to score well on mcat. i recently joined harvard med admissions so will see what criteria they use for applicants, but my initial sense is they're looking for "future leaders in the field".

not to derail the thread but wondering what you've seen students do for their clinical hours (paid vs unpaid) as she is starting to look into options over the next few years.

Most consultants recommend EMT, CNA, or MA. Scribing is considered fake clinical or not even clinical. Some do street medicine volunteering, phlebotomy, other soft clinical but those are all considered worse than the top three.

For top schools, successful applicants often have two or more deep and longstanding clinical experiences and the "soft" ones that have an altruistic/public health angle are highly prioritized once the baseline clinical experience is checked. They are not "soft" when the profession is about showing you can care for others and mean it.
The Cornell parent is correct Harvard and other T10 are looking for future leaders in the field. That means in addition to the requisite clinical experience all med schools demand, leadership experience plus science research has to be part of the package to have a shot. Clinical experience is table stakes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Doubt there are more than 1 or 2 NESCACs that do better than Holy Cross. Enlighten us please on which NESCAC has a grad with a Nobel for medicine or a grad as prominent as Dr. Fauci.

Hamilton produced a Nobel recipient in Physiology or Medicine and placed 12th to Holy Cross' 26th among LACs when considered by the percentage of graduates attending medical school.

https://www.hamilton.edu/news/story/hamilton-college-alumnus-wins-nobel-prize

https://www.collegetransitions.com/blog/from-pre-med-to-md-understanding-the-pathways-to-medical-school/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not looking for snark, but I have one dc at UChicago and a high schooler who wants pre med. The high schooler is petrified to attend UChicago due to the "intimidating" super intellectual kids she's met through DC so far and the grade deflation. Otherwise school is a great fit. Is her fear valid? She said WashU woild be easier for pre med, but UChicago seems to do well with med school placement. We know ED UChicago and WashU is going to be make or break, so need to decide. She is capable and hardworking but older kid tested better and is more analytical, and near photographic memory, so she is worried she can't cut it. Sigh.

Since your DC already knows the culture of UChicago, have her look at less intensive academic colleges. UChicago is not for everyone. GPA is still the number one factor so even if they get their undergraduate degree at a T10 like UChicago, a third tier private like Emory, or from a lesser public like VCU, you will still need a high GPA. What a lot of people are missing is that the success of getting into medical school from T10 colleges is more a function of these students can perform really well on the MCAT rather than the name behind the school. The vast majority of T10 students are going to have high SATs which correlates to a high MCAT score.

While yes, that is true, it is also true that the most rigorous schools often prepare better for the MCAT and the rigor of med school, which is like drinking out of a firehose. These schools also have a culture of hard work outside the classroom, such that all premeds are motivated to work very hard on all aspects of their application and often have much more research and more meaningful clinical hours. Research is a huge factor for getting into T20-30 med and up. It has become almost essential for these. There are too many 3.9/518+ with all the clinicals, and these top schools are all top academic medical centers that are centered on research.
I have been directly involved in hiring at my multi-specialty adult med practice: The resumes of docs out of residency almost never listed papers from med school or undergrad 22 years ago when I started practice. I did research at an ivy back then as an undergrad and it was rare, under 15%, and it was a big tip-in to my T5 med school. Now almost all successful applicants to T20 have at least one semester of real research with a professor, you need a co-author or extensive 3 semester/multiple summer research for a T5.

Med admission consulting groups are all docs and many are former admin officers at their med schools, including myself. There are many around the DMV, and we often share data informally to discuss changes. When data from years shows that students at X and Y schools(popular SEC tupe schools) applying to med school often have 3.90+ GPA including BCPM(stem) GPA, in a science major, and almost none of them can get over a 508, yet the 3.5 (below average!)ivy+ kids easily get over 510, it tells you all you need to know about the rigor of the courses at the ivy+, as well as peer group they faced on the way! Med admissions 100% know it too, and track it!
The 3.90+ ivy kids (top third at most ivies) never pay for consulting nor would any of us honorably take their money: almost all 3.90+ have 518+. They walk into the T25 and if they have the research and volunteering/altruism profile they often score a T10 or at least big merit at a T20-30 school. Getting to go to a great or even good med school(T50) for half off or free is a huge golden ticket: attending ivy+ schools is the most likely path to get that ticket punched. Of course it does not make sense for a 1450, mix of 4s and 5s on stem AP to go to an ivy+ for med, but it is absolutely the best choice for the top 1% high schoolers.

this is helpful info - thanks for posting. i graduated med school almost 30 years ago so a lot has definitely changed. i'm relearning the process as DC is interested in pursuing medicine and just finished freshman year at cornell with 4.0+. encouraging to hear that ivy kids getting 3.9+ tend to score well on mcat. i recently joined harvard med admissions so will see what criteria they use for applicants, but my initial sense is they're looking for "future leaders in the field".

not to derail the thread but wondering what you've seen students do for their clinical hours (paid vs unpaid) as she is starting to look into options over the next few years.

There are a wide variety of clinical experiences that are considered high quality. Cornell has a detailed premed advising website that appears to have more information for current students if they register . The public facing information is quite detailed, presumably your student has already read it and looked into how advising works. Keep in mind research is highly important if targeting T10 med, as is leadership, and a 4.0 student at Cornell will likely target the T10. I realize Cornell is technically on a 4.3 scale, however 4.0 remains top notch as some courses do not give A+.

thanks - DC tells me cornell does not match premed advisor until sophomore year (probably due to freshmen dropping!) so will definitely discuss with advisors this year. they have 3 coauthor pubs and 1 first author that they presented at a national conference as a high school senior. working this summer in health policy lab and may continue remotely during school year so certainly on radar. thanks for your help.

High school research (even publication) does not count. T25-T50 all expect some research in college, not necessarily pubs as those are harder to get in college. T10 typically expects more extensive research, any science field, publication not needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not looking for snark, but I have one dc at UChicago and a high schooler who wants pre med. The high schooler is petrified to attend UChicago due to the "intimidating" super intellectual kids she's met through DC so far and the grade deflation. Otherwise school is a great fit. Is her fear valid? She said WashU woild be easier for pre med, but UChicago seems to do well with med school placement. We know ED UChicago and WashU is going to be make or break, so need to decide. She is capable and hardworking but older kid tested better and is more analytical, and near photographic memory, so she is worried she can't cut it. Sigh.

Since your DC already knows the culture of UChicago, have her look at less intensive academic colleges. UChicago is not for everyone. GPA is still the number one factor so even if they get their undergraduate degree at a T10 like UChicago, a third tier private like Emory, or from a lesser public like VCU, you will still need a high GPA. What a lot of people are missing is that the success of getting into medical school from T10 colleges is more a function of these students can perform really well on the MCAT rather than the name behind the school. The vast majority of T10 students are going to have high SATs which correlates to a high MCAT score.

While yes, that is true, it is also true that the most rigorous schools often prepare better for the MCAT and the rigor of med school, which is like drinking out of a firehose. These schools also have a culture of hard work outside the classroom, such that all premeds are motivated to work very hard on all aspects of their application and often have much more research and more meaningful clinical hours. Research is a huge factor for getting into T20-30 med and up. It has become almost essential for these. There are too many 3.9/518+ with all the clinicals, and these top schools are all top academic medical centers that are centered on research.
I have been directly involved in hiring at my multi-specialty adult med practice: The resumes of docs out of residency almost never listed papers from med school or undergrad 22 years ago when I started practice. I did research at an ivy back then as an undergrad and it was rare, under 15%, and it was a big tip-in to my T5 med school. Now almost all successful applicants to T20 have at least one semester of real research with a professor, you need a co-author or extensive 3 semester/multiple summer research for a T5.

Med admission consulting groups are all docs and many are former admin officers at their med schools, including myself. There are many around the DMV, and we often share data informally to discuss changes. When data from years shows that students at X and Y schools(popular SEC tupe schools) applying to med school often have 3.90+ GPA including BCPM(stem) GPA, in a science major, and almost none of them can get over a 508, yet the 3.5 (below average!)ivy+ kids easily get over 510, it tells you all you need to know about the rigor of the courses at the ivy+, as well as peer group they faced on the way! Med admissions 100% know it too, and track it!
The 3.90+ ivy kids (top third at most ivies) never pay for consulting nor would any of us honorably take their money: almost all 3.90+ have 518+. They walk into the T25 and if they have the research and volunteering/altruism profile they often score a T10 or at least big merit at a T20-30 school. Getting to go to a great or even good med school(T50) for half off or free is a huge golden ticket: attending ivy+ schools is the most likely path to get that ticket punched. Of course it does not make sense for a 1450, mix of 4s and 5s on stem AP to go to an ivy+ for med, but it is absolutely the best choice for the top 1% high schoolers.

this is helpful info - thanks for posting. i graduated med school almost 30 years ago so a lot has definitely changed. i'm relearning the process as DC is interested in pursuing medicine and just finished freshman year at cornell with 4.0+. encouraging to hear that ivy kids getting 3.9+ tend to score well on mcat. i recently joined harvard med admissions so will see what criteria they use for applicants, but my initial sense is they're looking for "future leaders in the field".

not to derail the thread but wondering what you've seen students do for their clinical hours (paid vs unpaid) as she is starting to look into options over the next few years.

Most consultants recommend EMT, CNA, or MA. Scribing is considered fake clinical or not even clinical. Some do street medicine volunteering, phlebotomy, other soft clinical but those are all considered worse than the top three.

For top schools, successful applicants often have two or more deep and longstanding clinical experiences and the "soft" ones that have an altruistic/public health angle are highly prioritized once the baseline clinical experience is checked. They are not "soft" when the profession is about showing you can care for others and mean it.
The Cornell parent is correct Harvard and other T10 are looking for future leaders in the field. That means in addition to the requisite clinical experience all med schools demand, leadership experience plus science research has to be part of the package to have a shot. Clinical experience is table stakes.

I'm not sure what your point is. The question was about getting clinical experience, which is what I answered. No one asked about leadership or research. Sure, you should have some soft altruistic volunteering also, but if that is all that you have for clinical then it is not going to cut it at top schools. You need real clinical work to show that you want to be a doctor and not a social worker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son wants to go to med school. He is a rising senior and has excellent stats. I expect he will get into some top schools. I wonder if it will be better for him to choose a school that does not have a student population of mostly valedictorians and near perfect SAT scores. My kid also has the stats and extracurriculars.

Pre-Med (Biology) major at Lehigh. Full ride versus attending a T25 school (with aid but would cost money/loans, parents had very little resources). Got a 4.0 and good MCAT score and attending a top Med School.

[Anonymous]

I have no idea how the pre med process works, but for some that can make med school, at what point do you consider DO? Is it a different timeframe altogether? Could you pivot to DO/opthamology/dentistry? Serious question, I just have no idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea how the pre med process works, but for some that can make med school, at what point do you consider DO? Is it a different timeframe altogether? Could you pivot to DO/opthamology/dentistry? Serious question, I just have no idea.

Many apply to both MD and DO in the same cycle. If your grades aren't up to par after undergrad, you can consider DO right away or try to do a post-bac to get your GPA up. Or you can try MD path one or more cycles and then apply to DO in later cycles. Totally up to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea how the pre med process works, but for some that can make med school, at what point do you consider DO? Is it a different timeframe altogether? Could you pivot to DO/opthamology/dentistry? Serious question, I just have no idea.

DO (Dr of Osteopathic medicine) schools is usually used to refer to Osteopathic medical schoolss: in general have a lower bar for MCAT and GPA than MD schools. They place very well, generally, into non-academic residencies, non-subspecialty residencies, though a subset of them do have a 25-35% SOAP rate(scramble rate)--the % who do not match on match day and have to look for unfilled spots often outside their first choice of fields and/or in a rural area. That does not happen with MD programs, top ones have 0% SOAP and almost all MD schools are under 10%.

Ophthalmology is a subspecialty of medicine that does surgical procedures on eyes, in other words a field you choose in MD school then try to match in it for residency. It is almost impossible as are many subspecialities(ENT, rad-onc, plastics, neurosurgery, etc), from a DO school, and even from MD programs you have to be either at a T20 (bottom of the class is fine) or near the top of your class at lower ranked MD programs.

Optometry is a profession that knows a lot about eyes but does not do surgery: they do not go to medical school, they go to specific eye programs and get a Doctor of Optometry after their bachelors, which is unfortunately also called a DO. That decision is made in undergrad.

Dentists get a DDS: after their bachelors they apply to dental schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not looking for snark, but I have one dc at UChicago and a high schooler who wants pre med. The high schooler is petrified to attend UChicago due to the "intimidating" super intellectual kids she's met through DC so far and the grade deflation. Otherwise school is a great fit. Is her fear valid? She said WashU woild be easier for pre med, but UChicago seems to do well with med school placement. We know ED UChicago and WashU is going to be make or break, so need to decide. She is capable and hardworking but older kid tested better and is more analytical, and near photographic memory, so she is worried she can't cut it. Sigh.

Since your DC already knows the culture of UChicago, have her look at less intensive academic colleges. UChicago is not for everyone. GPA is still the number one factor so even if they get their undergraduate degree at a T10 like UChicago, a third tier private like Emory, or from a lesser public like VCU, you will still need a high GPA. What a lot of people are missing is that the success of getting into medical school from T10 colleges is more a function of these students can perform really well on the MCAT rather than the name behind the school. The vast majority of T10 students are going to have high SATs which correlates to a high MCAT score.

While yes, that is true, it is also true that the most rigorous schools often prepare better for the MCAT and the rigor of med school, which is like drinking out of a firehose. These schools also have a culture of hard work outside the classroom, such that all premeds are motivated to work very hard on all aspects of their application and often have much more research and more meaningful clinical hours. Research is a huge factor for getting into T20-30 med and up. It has become almost essential for these. There are too many 3.9/518+ with all the clinicals, and these top schools are all top academic medical centers that are centered on research.
I have been directly involved in hiring at my multi-specialty adult med practice: The resumes of docs out of residency almost never listed papers from med school or undergrad 22 years ago when I started practice. I did research at an ivy back then as an undergrad and it was rare, under 15%, and it was a big tip-in to my T5 med school. Now almost all successful applicants to T20 have at least one semester of real research with a professor, you need a co-author or extensive 3 semester/multiple summer research for a T5.

Med admission consulting groups are all docs and many are former admin officers at their med schools, including myself. There are many around the DMV, and we often share data informally to discuss changes. When data from years shows that students at X and Y schools(popular SEC tupe schools) applying to med school often have 3.90+ GPA including BCPM(stem) GPA, in a science major, and almost none of them can get over a 508, yet the 3.5 (below average!)ivy+ kids easily get over 510, it tells you all you need to know about the rigor of the courses at the ivy+, as well as peer group they faced on the way! Med admissions 100% know it too, and track it!
The 3.90+ ivy kids (top third at most ivies) never pay for consulting nor would any of us honorably take their money: almost all 3.90+ have 518+. They walk into the T25 and if they have the research and volunteering/altruism profile they often score a T10 or at least big merit at a T20-30 school. Getting to go to a great or even good med school(T50) for half off or free is a huge golden ticket: attending ivy+ schools is the most likely path to get that ticket punched. Of course it does not make sense for a 1450, mix of 4s and 5s on stem AP to go to an ivy+ for med, but it is absolutely the best choice for the top 1% high schoolers.

this is helpful info - thanks for posting. i graduated med school almost 30 years ago so a lot has definitely changed. i'm relearning the process as DC is interested in pursuing medicine and just finished freshman year at cornell with 4.0+. encouraging to hear that ivy kids getting 3.9+ tend to score well on mcat. i recently joined harvard med admissions so will see what criteria they use for applicants, but my initial sense is they're looking for "future leaders in the field".

not to derail the thread but wondering what you've seen students do for their clinical hours (paid vs unpaid) as she is starting to look into options over the next few years.

Most consultants recommend EMT, CNA, or MA. Scribing is considered fake clinical or not even clinical. Some do street medicine volunteering, phlebotomy, other soft clinical but those are all considered worse than the top three.

For top schools, successful applicants often have two or more deep and longstanding clinical experiences and the "soft" ones that have an altruistic/public health angle are highly prioritized once the baseline clinical experience is checked. They are not "soft" when the profession is about showing you can care for others and mean it.
The Cornell parent is correct Harvard and other T10 are looking for future leaders in the field. That means in addition to the requisite clinical experience all med schools demand, leadership experience plus science research has to be part of the package to have a shot. Clinical experience is table stakes.

I'm not sure what your point is. The question was about getting clinical experience, which is what I answered. No one asked about leadership or research. Sure, you should have some soft altruistic volunteering also, but if that is all that you have for clinical then it is not going to cut it at top schools. You need real clinical work to show that you want to be a doctor and not a social worker.

If you re-read you will see I said the altruistic clinical and/or volunteering hours are important "once the baseline clinical experience is checked". My point was more to the PP, the Cornell parent whose kid has a 4.0 and almost certainly will get caught up in the chase for T20 or T10, and likely has a great shot if they keep it up. Way above basic clinical hours are important for that level, and they need to show deep extensive evidence of altruism in the app as well as confirmation in interviews, and research, AND have the 3.9+/520+. I will add, with years of working as a physician alongside social workers in the hospital, being a doctor has a LOT of overlap with being a social worker. Top medical schools seek the whole package. A few shifts or some weekends of volunteer work will not cut it, even if the EMT or CNA is 2000 hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son wants to go to med school. He is a rising senior and has excellent stats. I expect he will get into some top schools. I wonder if it will be better for him to choose a school that does not have a student population of mostly valedictorians and near perfect SAT scores. My kid also has the stats and extracurriculars.

Pre-Med (Biology) major at Lehigh. Full ride versus attending a T25 school (with aid but would cost money/loans, parents had very little resources). Got a 4.0 and good MCAT score and attending a top Med School.

Cheers !! What was the MCAT? Did Lehigh coursework prepare well for it? What medical school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea how the pre med process works, but for some that can make med school, at what point do you consider DO? Is it a different timeframe altogether? Could you pivot to DO/opthamology/dentistry? Serious question, I just have no idea.

DO (Dr of Osteopathic medicine) schools is usually used to refer to Osteopathic medical schoolss: in general have a lower bar for MCAT and GPA than MD schools. They place very well, generally, into non-academic residencies, non-subspecialty residencies, though a subset of them do have a 25-35% SOAP rate(scramble rate)--the % who do not match on match day and have to look for unfilled spots often outside their first choice of fields and/or in a rural area. That does not happen with MD programs, top ones have 0% SOAP and almost all MD schools are under 10%.

Ophthalmology is a subspecialty of medicine that does surgical procedures on eyes, in other words a field you choose in MD school then try to match in it for residency. It is almost impossible as are many subspecialities(ENT, rad-onc, plastics, neurosurgery, etc), from a DO school, and even from MD programs you have to be either at a T20 (bottom of the class is fine) or near the top of your class at lower ranked MD programs.

Optometry is a profession that knows a lot about eyes but does not do surgery: they do not go to medical school, they go to specific eye programs and get a Doctor of Optometry after their bachelors, which is unfortunately also called a DO. That decision is made in undergrad.

Dentists get a DDS: after their bachelors they apply to dental schools.

Optometrists get OD degrees

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea how the pre med process works, but for some that can make med school, at what point do you consider DO? Is it a different timeframe altogether? Could you pivot to DO/opthamology/dentistry? Serious question, I just have no idea.

DO (Dr of Osteopathic medicine) schools is usually used to refer to Osteopathic medical schoolss: in general have a lower bar for MCAT and GPA than MD schools. They place very well, generally, into non-academic residencies, non-subspecialty residencies, though a subset of them do have a 25-35% SOAP rate(scramble rate)--the % who do not match on match day and have to look for unfilled spots often outside their first choice of fields and/or in a rural area. That does not happen with MD programs, top ones have 0% SOAP and almost all MD schools are under 10%.

Ophthalmology is a subspecialty of medicine that does surgical procedures on eyes, in other words a field you choose in MD school then try to match in it for residency. It is almost impossible as are many subspecialities(ENT, rad-onc, plastics, neurosurgery, etc), from a DO school, and even from MD programs you have to be either at a T20 (bottom of the class is fine) or near the top of your class at lower ranked MD programs.

Optometry is a profession that knows a lot about eyes but does not do surgery: they do not go to medical school, they go to specific eye programs and get a Doctor of Optometry after their bachelors, which is unfortunately also called a DO. That decision is made in undergrad.

Dentists get a DDS: after their bachelors they apply to dental schools.

This is not true at all. I don’t know about DO, but there are absolutely tons sub specialists that come out of mid tier medical schools.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Not looking for snark, but I have one dc at UChicago and a high schooler who wants pre med. The high schooler is petrified to attend UChicago due to the "intimidating" super intellectual kids she's met through DC so far and the grade deflation. Otherwise school is a great fit. Is her fear valid? She said WashU woild be easier for pre med, but UChicago seems to do well with med school placement. We know ED UChicago and WashU is going to be make or break, so need to decide. She is capable and hardworking but older kid tested better and is more analytical, and near photographic memory, so she is worried she can't cut it. Sigh.

Since your DC already knows the culture of UChicago, have her look at less intensive academic colleges. UChicago is not for everyone. GPA is still the number one factor so even if they get their undergraduate degree at a T10 like UChicago, a third tier private like Emory, or from a lesser public like VCU, you will still need a high GPA. What a lot of people are missing is that the success of getting into medical school from T10 colleges is more a function of these students can perform really well on the MCAT rather than the name behind the school. The vast majority of T10 students are going to have high SATs which correlates to a high MCAT score.

While yes, that is true, it is also true that the most rigorous schools often prepare better for the MCAT and the rigor of med school, which is like drinking out of a firehose. These schools also have a culture of hard work outside the classroom, such that all premeds are motivated to work very hard on all aspects of their application and often have much more research and more meaningful clinical hours. Research is a huge factor for getting into T20-30 med and up. It has become almost essential for these. There are too many 3.9/518+ with all the clinicals, and these top schools are all top academic medical centers that are centered on research.
I have been directly involved in hiring at my multi-specialty adult med practice: The resumes of docs out of residency almost never listed papers from med school or undergrad 22 years ago when I started practice. I did research at an ivy back then as an undergrad and it was rare, under 15%, and it was a big tip-in to my T5 med school. Now almost all successful applicants to T20 have at least one semester of real research with a professor, you need a co-author or extensive 3 semester/multiple summer research for a T5.

Med admission consulting groups are all docs and many are former admin officers at their med schools, including myself. There are many around the DMV, and we often share data informally to discuss changes. When data from years shows that students at X and Y schools(popular SEC tupe schools) applying to med school often have 3.90+ GPA including BCPM(stem) GPA, in a science major, and almost none of them can get over a 508, yet the 3.5 (below average!)ivy+ kids easily get over 510, it tells you all you need to know about the rigor of the courses at the ivy+, as well as peer group they faced on the way! Med admissions 100% know it too, and track it!
The 3.90+ ivy kids (top third at most ivies) never pay for consulting nor would any of us honorably take their money: almost all 3.90+ have 518+. They walk into the T25 and if they have the research and volunteering/altruism profile they often score a T10 or at least big merit at a T20-30 school. Getting to go to a great or even good med school(T50) for half off or free is a huge golden ticket: attending ivy+ schools is the most likely path to get that ticket punched. Of course it does not make sense for a 1450, mix of 4s and 5s on stem AP to go to an ivy+ for med, but it is absolutely the best choice for the top 1% high schoolers.

this is helpful info - thanks for posting. i graduated med school almost 30 years ago so a lot has definitely changed. i'm relearning the process as DC is interested in pursuing medicine and just finished freshman year at cornell with 4.0+. encouraging to hear that ivy kids getting 3.9+ tend to score well on mcat. i recently joined harvard med admissions so will see what criteria they use for applicants, but my initial sense is they're looking for "future leaders in the field".

not to derail the thread but wondering what you've seen students do for their clinical hours (paid vs unpaid) as she is starting to look into options over the next few years.

Most consultants recommend EMT, CNA, or MA. Scribing is considered fake clinical or not even clinical. Some do street medicine volunteering, phlebotomy, other soft clinical but those are all considered worse than the top three.

For top schools, successful applicants often have two or more deep and longstanding clinical experiences and the "soft" ones that have an altruistic/public health angle are highly prioritized once the baseline clinical experience is checked. They are not "soft" when the profession is about showing you can care for others and mean it.
The Cornell parent is correct Harvard and other T10 are looking for future leaders in the field. That means in addition to the requisite clinical experience all med schools demand, leadership experience plus science research has to be part of the package to have a shot. Clinical experience is table stakes.

I'm not sure what your point is. The question was about getting clinical experience, which is what I answered. No one asked about leadership or research. Sure, you should have some soft altruistic volunteering also, but if that is all that you have for clinical then it is not going to cut it at top schools. You need real clinical work to show that you want to be a doctor and not a social worker.

If you re-read you will see I said the altruistic clinical and/or volunteering hours are important "once the baseline clinical experience is checked". My point was more to the PP, the Cornell parent whose kid has a 4.0 and almost certainly will get caught up in the chase for T20 or T10, and likely has a great shot if they keep it up. Way above basic clinical hours are important for that level, and they need to show deep extensive evidence of altruism in the app as well as confirmation in interviews, and research, AND have the 3.9+/520+. I will add, with years of working as a physician alongside social workers in the hospital, being a doctor has a LOT of overlap with being a social worker. Top medical schools seek the whole package. A few shifts or some weekends of volunteer work will not cut it, even if the EMT or CNA is 2000 hours.

Agree for some schools, but not all T20s really care about deep extensive evidence of altruism. If you have great stats and first author publications in Nature, schools like Hopkins and WashU are taking you with little to no evidence of altruism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea how the pre med process works, but for some that can make med school, at what point do you consider DO? Is it a different timeframe altogether? Could you pivot to DO/opthamology/dentistry? Serious question, I just have no idea.

DO (Dr of Osteopathic medicine) schools is usually used to refer to Osteopathic medical schoolss: in general have a lower bar for MCAT and GPA than MD schools. They place very well, generally, into non-academic residencies, non-subspecialty residencies, though a subset of them do have a 25-35% SOAP rate(scramble rate)--the % who do not match on match day and have to look for unfilled spots often outside their first choice of fields and/or in a rural area. That does not happen with MD programs, top ones have 0% SOAP and almost all MD schools are under 10%.

Ophthalmology is a subspecialty of medicine that does surgical procedures on eyes, in other words a field you choose in MD school then try to match in it for residency. It is almost impossible as are many subspecialities(ENT, rad-onc, plastics, neurosurgery, etc), from a DO school, and even from MD programs you have to be either at a T20 (bottom of the class is fine) or near the top of your class at lower ranked MD programs.

Optometry is a profession that knows a lot about eyes but does not do surgery: they do not go to medical school, they go to specific eye programs and get a Doctor of Optometry after their bachelors, which is unfortunately also called a DO. That decision is made in undergrad.

Dentists get a DDS: after their bachelors they apply to dental schools.

This is not true at all. I don’t know about DO, but there are absolutely tons sub specialists that come out of mid tier medical schools.

One of my cousin’s kids is doing his cardiology fellowship. He went to a Caribbean medical school.