Is it better to go to a lesser school if you are went to be premed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not looking for snark, but I have one dc at UChicago and a high schooler who wants pre med. The high schooler is petrified to attend UChicago due to the "intimidating" super intellectual kids she's met through DC so far and the grade deflation. Otherwise school is a great fit. Is her fear valid? She said WashU woild be easier for pre med, but UChicago seems to do well with med school placement. We know ED UChicago and WashU is going to be make or break, so need to decide. She is capable and hardworking but older kid tested better and is more analytical, and near photographic memory, so she is worried she can't cut it. Sigh.

Since your DC already knows the culture of UChicago, have her look at less intensive academic colleges. UChicago is not for everyone. GPA is still the number one factor so even if they get their undergraduate degree at a T10 like UChicago, a third tier private like Emory, or from a lesser public like VCU, you will still need a high GPA. What a lot of people are missing is that the success of getting into medical school from T10 colleges is more a function of these students can perform really well on the MCAT rather than the name behind the school. The vast majority of T10 students are going to have high SATs which correlates to a high MCAT score.

While yes, that is true, it is also true that the most rigorous schools often prepare better for the MCAT and the rigor of med school, which is like drinking out of a firehose. These schools also have a culture of hard work outside the classroom, such that all premeds are motivated to work very hard on all aspects of their application and often have much more research and more meaningful clinical hours. Research is a huge factor for getting into T20-30 med and up. It has become almost essential for these. There are too many 3.9/518+ with all the clinicals, and these top schools are all top academic medical centers that are centered on research.
I have been directly involved in hiring at my multi-specialty adult med practice: The resumes of docs out of residency almost never listed papers from med school or undergrad 22 years ago when I started practice. I did research at an ivy back then as an undergrad and it was rare, under 15%, and it was a big tip-in to my T5 med school. Now almost all successful applicants to T20 have at least one semester of real research with a professor, you need a co-author or extensive 3 semester/multiple summer research for a T5.

Med admission consulting groups are all docs and many are former admin officers at their med schools, including myself. There are many around the DMV, and we often share data informally to discuss changes. When data from years shows that students at X and Y schools(popular SEC tupe schools) applying to med school often have 3.90+ GPA including BCPM(stem) GPA, in a science major, and almost none of them can get over a 508, yet the 3.5 (below average!)ivy+ kids easily get over 510, it tells you all you need to know about the rigor of the courses at the ivy+, as well as peer group they faced on the way! Med admissions 100% know it too, and track it!
The 3.90+ ivy kids (top third at most ivies) never pay for consulting nor would any of us honorably take their money: almost all 3.90+ have 518+. They walk into the T25 and if they have the research and volunteering/altruism profile they often score a T10 or at least big merit at a T20-30 school. Getting to go to a great or even good med school(T50) for half off or free is a huge golden ticket: attending ivy+ schools is the most likely path to get that ticket punched. Of course it does not make sense for a 1450, mix of 4s and 5s on stem AP to go to an ivy+ for med, but it is absolutely the best choice for the top 1% high schoolers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Med admission consulting groups are all docs and many are former admin officers at their med schools, including myself.

DC is looking for a reputable consultant. Could you post a few good ones? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not looking for snark, but I have one dc at UChicago and a high schooler who wants pre med. The high schooler is petrified to attend UChicago due to the "intimidating" super intellectual kids she's met through DC so far and the grade deflation. Otherwise school is a great fit. Is her fear valid? She said WashU woild be easier for pre med, but UChicago seems to do well with med school placement. We know ED UChicago and WashU is going to be make or break, so need to decide. She is capable and hardworking but older kid tested better and is more analytical, and near photographic memory, so she is worried she can't cut it. Sigh.

Since your DC already knows the culture of UChicago, have her look at less intensive academic colleges. UChicago is not for everyone. GPA is still the number one factor so even if they get their undergraduate degree at a T10 like UChicago, a third tier private like Emory, or from a lesser public like VCU, you will still need a high GPA. What a lot of people are missing is that the success of getting into medical school from T10 colleges is more a function of these students can perform really well on the MCAT rather than the name behind the school. The vast majority of T10 students are going to have high SATs which correlates to a high MCAT score.

While yes, that is true, it is also true that the most rigorous schools often prepare better for the MCAT and the rigor of med school, which is like drinking out of a firehose. These schools also have a culture of hard work outside the classroom, such that all premeds are motivated to work very hard on all aspects of their application and often have much more research and more meaningful clinical hours. Research is a huge factor for getting into T20-30 med and up. It has become almost essential for these. There are too many 3.9/518+ with all the clinicals, and these top schools are all top academic medical centers that are centered on research.
I have been directly involved in hiring at my multi-specialty adult med practice: The resumes of docs out of residency almost never listed papers from med school or undergrad 22 years ago when I started practice. I did research at an ivy back then as an undergrad and it was rare, under 15%, and it was a big tip-in to my T5 med school. Now almost all successful applicants to T20 have at least one semester of real research with a professor, you need a co-author or extensive 3 semester/multiple summer research for a T5.

Med admission consulting groups are all docs and many are former admin officers at their med schools, including myself. There are many around the DMV, and we often share data informally to discuss changes. When data from years shows that students at X and Y schools(popular SEC tupe schools) applying to med school often have 3.90+ GPA including BCPM(stem) GPA, in a science major, and almost none of them can get over a 508, yet the 3.5 (below average!)ivy+ kids easily get over 510, it tells you all you need to know about the rigor of the courses at the ivy+, as well as peer group they faced on the way! Med admissions 100% know it too, and track it!
The 3.90+ ivy kids (top third at most ivies) never pay for consulting nor would any of us honorably take their money: almost all 3.90+ have 518+. They walk into the T25 and if they have the research and volunteering/altruism profile they often score a T10 or at least big merit at a T20-30 school. Getting to go to a great or even good med school(T50) for half off or free is a huge golden ticket: attending ivy+ schools is the most likely path to get that ticket punched. Of course it does not make sense for a 1450, mix of 4s and 5s on stem AP to go to an ivy+ for med, but it is absolutely the best choice for the top 1% high schoolers.

DC is looking for a reputable consultant. Could you post a few good ones? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Holy Cross is a powerhouse in placing kids in med school and has been hot over 100 years. Grads include Nobel Prize winner, AMA President, countless med school deans, and Dr Fauci. No other SLAC is close.

What is asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of freshmen think they want pre-med. But ultimately change concentrations for various reasons. These are 18 year old kids. They shouldn't know what they really want to do. They're just listening to their parents at that age.

I personally think you should choose a school that is solid all around. A lot of things change between ages 18-22. And it's good to have a plan B for majors and ambitions and be in an environment where you can make those changes.

So I'd encourage going to the top all around school if the fit is good. You want to maintain optionality in case an 18 year old changes their mind about med school.

And regardless, med schools are very well aware of grading differences at selective schools. They adjust accordingly. Your student at MIT or Rice or Princeton and other difficult schools is going to have an easier time with med school admissions than a 4.0 from Podunk U.

100%

If they have the same MCAT, etc. as the MIT, Rice, or Princeton applicant, the 4.0 from Podunk will do just fine. Med school is significantly stat driven.

[Anonymous]

Maybe an ignorant question, but I thought usnews did not rank med schools. What do posters mean by t10, t20 med school? Especially since it was my impression that med reputation doesn’t necessarily line up with undergrad reputation. Is there a ranking?

[Anonymous]

Students at a T10 undergraduate college have more success getting into med school because they are much more likely to have scored very high on the SAT. The correlation between the SAT and MCAT is real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe an ignorant question, but I thought usnews did not rank med schools. What do posters mean by t10, t20 med school? Especially since it was my impression that med reputation doesn’t necessarily line up with undergrad reputation. Is there a ranking?

Admit.org is the one everyone uses after us news stopped ranking the top ones

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of freshmen think they want pre-med. But ultimately change concentrations for various reasons. These are 18 year old kids. They shouldn't know what they really want to do. They're just listening to their parents at that age.

I personally think you should choose a school that is solid all around. A lot of things change between ages 18-22. And it's good to have a plan B for majors and ambitions and be in an environment where you can make those changes.

So I'd encourage going to the top all around school if the fit is good. You want to maintain optionality in case an 18 year old changes their mind about med school.

And regardless, med schools are very well aware of grading differences at selective schools. They adjust accordingly. Your student at MIT or Rice or Princeton and other difficult schools is going to have an easier time with med school admissions than a 4.0 from Podunk U.

100%

If they have the same MCAT, etc. as the MIT, Rice, or Princeton applicant, the 4.0 from Podunk will do just fine. Med school is significantly stat driven.

Correct. The 4.0 from Podunk U with a 520+ and plenty of clinical experience and research will get in to plenty of US med schools. It is exceedingly rare to get that MCAT score coming from a podunkU, but sure, it happens, and they get in to med school easily. However: admission to T10 type places, or even T20 will have a lot of competition from all of the 3.9+ and 520+ from top schools. Will the PodunkU have the same level of research? The Amgen or other funded programs, the Goldwater or other fellowships? Would they even know about all of the things the top-school kids know about because professors, departments, upperclassmen push them there? Are they as likely to have the fancy LOR from the top research professor who knows and regularly collaborates with faculty at T10 med schools? Will they have had the interview prep rounds that students at ivy+ places get, especially those who have competed or are in the process of competing for top fellowships while they are applying? At the TOP med schools, the GPA and MCAT are used to clear a bar, often 520+, and admission is based on all of the other factors. Attending an ivy+ greatly increases the chances that all of those factors will be top notch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe an ignorant question, but I thought usnews did not rank med schools. What do posters mean by t10, t20 med school? Especially since it was my impression that med reputation doesn’t necessarily line up with undergrad reputation. Is there a ranking?

The top 10 are generally considered to be, usually in this order:
Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF(berkeley affiliated), Penn, Duke, Columbia, Stanford, NYU Grossman, WashU, Vanderbilt. Some people put Yale, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic in there instead. As with Universities, there are more like 13 in the “top 10”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not looking for snark, but I have one dc at UChicago and a high schooler who wants pre med. The high schooler is petrified to attend UChicago due to the "intimidating" super intellectual kids she's met through DC so far and the grade deflation. Otherwise school is a great fit. Is her fear valid? She said WashU woild be easier for pre med, but UChicago seems to do well with med school placement. We know ED UChicago and WashU is going to be make or break, so need to decide. She is capable and hardworking but older kid tested better and is more analytical, and near photographic memory, so she is worried she can't cut it. Sigh.

Since your DC already knows the culture of UChicago, have her look at less intensive academic colleges. UChicago is not for everyone. GPA is still the number one factor so even if they get their undergraduate degree at a T10 like UChicago, a third tier private like Emory, or from a lesser public like VCU, you will still need a high GPA. What a lot of people are missing is that the success of getting into medical school from T10 colleges is more a function of these students can perform really well on the MCAT rather than the name behind the school. The vast majority of T10 students are going to have high SATs which correlates to a high MCAT score.

While yes, that is true, it is also true that the most rigorous schools often prepare better for the MCAT and the rigor of med school, which is like drinking out of a firehose. These schools also have a culture of hard work outside the classroom, such that all premeds are motivated to work very hard on all aspects of their application and often have much more research and more meaningful clinical hours. Research is a huge factor for getting into T20-30 med and up. It has become almost essential for these. There are too many 3.9/518+ with all the clinicals, and these top schools are all top academic medical centers that are centered on research.
I have been directly involved in hiring at my multi-specialty adult med practice: The resumes of docs out of residency almost never listed papers from med school or undergrad 22 years ago when I started practice. I did research at an ivy back then as an undergrad and it was rare, under 15%, and it was a big tip-in to my T5 med school. Now almost all successful applicants to T20 have at least one semester of real research with a professor, you need a co-author or extensive 3 semester/multiple summer research for a T5.

Med admission consulting groups are all docs and many are former admin officers at their med schools, including myself. There are many around the DMV, and we often share data informally to discuss changes. When data from years shows that students at X and Y schools(popular SEC tupe schools) applying to med school often have 3.90+ GPA including BCPM(stem) GPA, in a science major, and almost none of them can get over a 508, yet the 3.5 (below average!)ivy+ kids easily get over 510, it tells you all you need to know about the rigor of the courses at the ivy+, as well as peer group they faced on the way! Med admissions 100% know it too, and track it!
The 3.90+ ivy kids (top third at most ivies) never pay for consulting nor would any of us honorably take their money: almost all 3.90+ have 518+. They walk into the T25 and if they have the research and volunteering/altruism profile they often score a T10 or at least big merit at a T20-30 school. Getting to go to a great or even good med school(T50) for half off or free is a huge golden ticket: attending ivy+ schools is the most likely path to get that ticket punched. Of course it does not make sense for a 1450, mix of 4s and 5s on stem AP to go to an ivy+ for med, but it is absolutely the best choice for the top 1% high schoolers.

this is helpful info - thanks for posting. i graduated med school almost 30 years ago so a lot has definitely changed. i'm relearning the process as DC is interested in pursuing medicine and just finished freshman year at cornell with 4.0+. encouraging to hear that ivy kids getting 3.9+ tend to score well on mcat. i recently joined harvard med admissions so will see what criteria they use for applicants, but my initial sense is they're looking for "future leaders in the field".

not to derail the thread but wondering what you've seen students do for their clinical hours (paid vs unpaid) as she is starting to look into options over the next few years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is pre-med at an Ivy. Their thoughts:
-the pre med classes aren't impossible and peers are not a crowd of geniuses.
-the medical school results are really good. The seniors my child knows personally this year are going to Yale, UVA, Mt. Sinai, and Hopkins. All top tier med schools. No gap year.

Mine is at an ivy and ivies are generally known (most) for significant grade inflation.

I call BS. My kids from top magnet schools found classes rigorous and do not think grades are inflated. I don't think this person has a kid at an Ivy. But, I will say, students are not competing against each other, so many do earn As because they are all top students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not looking for snark, but I have one dc at UChicago and a high schooler who wants pre med. The high schooler is petrified to attend UChicago due to the "intimidating" super intellectual kids she's met through DC so far and the grade deflation. Otherwise school is a great fit. Is her fear valid? She said WashU woild be easier for pre med, but UChicago seems to do well with med school placement. We know ED UChicago and WashU is going to be make or break, so need to decide. She is capable and hardworking but older kid tested better and is more analytical, and near photographic memory, so she is worried she can't cut it. Sigh.

Since your DC already knows the culture of UChicago, have her look at less intensive academic colleges. UChicago is not for everyone. GPA is still the number one factor so even if they get their undergraduate degree at a T10 like UChicago, a third tier private like Emory, or from a lesser public like VCU, you will still need a high GPA. What a lot of people are missing is that the success of getting into medical school from T10 colleges is more a function of these students can perform really well on the MCAT rather than the name behind the school. The vast majority of T10 students are going to have high SATs which correlates to a high MCAT score.

While yes, that is true, it is also true that the most rigorous schools often prepare better for the MCAT and the rigor of med school, which is like drinking out of a firehose. These schools also have a culture of hard work outside the classroom, such that all premeds are motivated to work very hard on all aspects of their application and often have much more research and more meaningful clinical hours. Research is a huge factor for getting into T20-30 med and up. It has become almost essential for these. There are too many 3.9/518+ with all the clinicals, and these top schools are all top academic medical centers that are centered on research.
I have been directly involved in hiring at my multi-specialty adult med practice: The resumes of docs out of residency almost never listed papers from med school or undergrad 22 years ago when I started practice. I did research at an ivy back then as an undergrad and it was rare, under 15%, and it was a big tip-in to my T5 med school. Now almost all successful applicants to T20 have at least one semester of real research with a professor, you need a co-author or extensive 3 semester/multiple summer research for a T5.

Med admission consulting groups are all docs and many are former admin officers at their med schools, including myself. There are many around the DMV, and we often share data informally to discuss changes. When data from years shows that students at X and Y schools(popular SEC tupe schools) applying to med school often have 3.90+ GPA including BCPM(stem) GPA, in a science major, and almost none of them can get over a 508, yet the 3.5 (below average!)ivy+ kids easily get over 510, it tells you all you need to know about the rigor of the courses at the ivy+, as well as peer group they faced on the way! Med admissions 100% know it too, and track it!
The 3.90+ ivy kids (top third at most ivies) never pay for consulting nor would any of us honorably take their money: almost all 3.90+ have 518+. They walk into the T25 and if they have the research and volunteering/altruism profile they often score a T10 or at least big merit at a T20-30 school. Getting to go to a great or even good med school(T50) for half off or free is a huge golden ticket: attending ivy+ schools is the most likely path to get that ticket punched. Of course it does not make sense for a 1450, mix of 4s and 5s on stem AP to go to an ivy+ for med, but it is absolutely the best choice for the top 1% high schoolers.

this is helpful info - thanks for posting. i graduated med school almost 30 years ago so a lot has definitely changed. i'm relearning the process as DC is interested in pursuing medicine and just finished freshman year at cornell with 4.0+. encouraging to hear that ivy kids getting 3.9+ tend to score well on mcat. i recently joined harvard med admissions so will see what criteria they use for applicants, but my initial sense is they're looking for "future leaders in the field".

not to derail the thread but wondering what you've seen students do for their clinical hours (paid vs unpaid) as she is starting to look into options over the next few years.

There are a wide variety of clinical experiences that are considered high quality. Cornell has a detailed premed advising website that appears to have more information for current students if they register . The public facing information is quite detailed, presumably your student has already read it and looked into how advising works. Keep in mind research is highly important if targeting T10 med, as is leadership, and a 4.0 student at Cornell will likely target the T10. I realize Cornell is technically on a 4.3 scale, however 4.0 remains top notch as some courses do not give A+.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not looking for snark, but I have one dc at UChicago and a high schooler who wants pre med. The high schooler is petrified to attend UChicago due to the "intimidating" super intellectual kids she's met through DC so far and the grade deflation. Otherwise school is a great fit. Is her fear valid? She said WashU woild be easier for pre med, but UChicago seems to do well with med school placement. We know ED UChicago and WashU is going to be make or break, so need to decide. She is capable and hardworking but older kid tested better and is more analytical, and near photographic memory, so she is worried she can't cut it. Sigh.

Since your DC already knows the culture of UChicago, have her look at less intensive academic colleges. UChicago is not for everyone. GPA is still the number one factor so even if they get their undergraduate degree at a T10 like UChicago, a third tier private like Emory, or from a lesser public like VCU, you will still need a high GPA. What a lot of people are missing is that the success of getting into medical school from T10 colleges is more a function of these students can perform really well on the MCAT rather than the name behind the school. The vast majority of T10 students are going to have high SATs which correlates to a high MCAT score.

While yes, that is true, it is also true that the most rigorous schools often prepare better for the MCAT and the rigor of med school, which is like drinking out of a firehose. These schools also have a culture of hard work outside the classroom, such that all premeds are motivated to work very hard on all aspects of their application and often have much more research and more meaningful clinical hours. Research is a huge factor for getting into T20-30 med and up. It has become almost essential for these. There are too many 3.9/518+ with all the clinicals, and these top schools are all top academic medical centers that are centered on research.
I have been directly involved in hiring at my multi-specialty adult med practice: The resumes of docs out of residency almost never listed papers from med school or undergrad 22 years ago when I started practice. I did research at an ivy back then as an undergrad and it was rare, under 15%, and it was a big tip-in to my T5 med school. Now almost all successful applicants to T20 have at least one semester of real research with a professor, you need a co-author or extensive 3 semester/multiple summer research for a T5.

Med admission consulting groups are all docs and many are former admin officers at their med schools, including myself. There are many around the DMV, and we often share data informally to discuss changes. When data from years shows that students at X and Y schools(popular SEC tupe schools) applying to med school often have 3.90+ GPA including BCPM(stem) GPA, in a science major, and almost none of them can get over a 508, yet the 3.5 (below average!)ivy+ kids easily get over 510, it tells you all you need to know about the rigor of the courses at the ivy+, as well as peer group they faced on the way! Med admissions 100% know it too, and track it!
The 3.90+ ivy kids (top third at most ivies) never pay for consulting nor would any of us honorably take their money: almost all 3.90+ have 518+. They walk into the T25 and if they have the research and volunteering/altruism profile they often score a T10 or at least big merit at a T20-30 school. Getting to go to a great or even good med school(T50) for half off or free is a huge golden ticket: attending ivy+ schools is the most likely path to get that ticket punched. Of course it does not make sense for a 1450, mix of 4s and 5s on stem AP to go to an ivy+ for med, but it is absolutely the best choice for the top 1% high schoolers.

this is helpful info - thanks for posting. i graduated med school almost 30 years ago so a lot has definitely changed. i'm relearning the process as DC is interested in pursuing medicine and just finished freshman year at cornell with 4.0+. encouraging to hear that ivy kids getting 3.9+ tend to score well on mcat. i recently joined harvard med admissions so will see what criteria they use for applicants, but my initial sense is they're looking for "future leaders in the field".

not to derail the thread but wondering what you've seen students do for their clinical hours (paid vs unpaid) as she is starting to look into options over the next few years.

Most consultants recommend EMT, CNA, or MA. Scribing is considered fake clinical or not even clinical. Some do street medicine volunteering, phlebotomy, other soft clinical but those are all considered worse than the top three.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe an ignorant question, but I thought usnews did not rank med schools. What do posters mean by t10, t20 med school? Especially since it was my impression that med reputation doesn’t necessarily line up with undergrad reputation. Is there a ranking?

The top 10 are generally considered to be, usually in this order:
Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF(berkeley affiliated), Penn, Duke, Columbia, Stanford, NYU Grossman, WashU, Vanderbilt. Some people put Yale, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic in there instead. As with Universities, there are more like 13 in the “top 10”

+1