European Expansion: Eye-Opening, Frustrating, and Possibly Not Worth It - Underperforming employee culture

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Shocked that France is not on this list. It has to be because they like to complain!

I'm pretty sure that's why the US is so low on there. Most people I know are very happy. There's a segment of society that catastrophizes everything and complains very loudly. My sibling is like that. She gets herself worked up about things that don't even apply to her. For instance, student loans. She goes on these massive rants online about student loans and she has plenty of followers. Except my parents paid for her apartment, car, living expenses, undergrad and graduate school in full. I know she never had a student loan.

Wow. I'm sure you think you come off as the sane and happy one to yourself in this story, but I applaud your sister for championing cases that she will never benefit from. You are the epitome of selfishness which makes people in this country miserable.

Nope. I'm not selfish at all. DH had student loans (80k) and we paid them off in under 5 years. It wasn't the end of the world although I am obviously incredibly lucky I didn't have student loans myself. Our jobs aren't fantastic, but they're steady and we both make 100k. I think that student loans are pictured as the evil, but instead I think we should be reining in college costs. We need to make it a bit more bare bones and less luxurious with cleaning ladies and lazy rivers.

My sister is selling a false narrative by telling people she had student loans to gain followers.

I love how you added that last detail to make yourself more believable. I just don't believe you. I think you're a selfish, short-sighted jerk who wants everyone to suffer because you did. Instead of focusing on how incredibly lucky you were to be able to pay your student loans off, and try to help others not to be in the same boat, you begrudge your sister advocating on their behalf.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like if you want to live like a simple communist life Europe is fo uour

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My last three European jobs where I worked in the US I made more than my boss in Europe which was odd.

They have tons of protections but the actual hard workers who never take advantage of that get paid way less than they deserve.

My last European boss kept asking why do I keep working or why do I care about how much I am paid. I wanted more money. It was mainly I had a job paying triple his current pay at my peak earnings years and he said when I was being honest he would retire for life if he earned that much between 45 and 56. I had to explain how much college costs, how much I had to pay for health insurance if I lost job, that I still have a mortgage and three cars and he was shocked since I had two kids in college at time, tuition was around 100K a year the two, medical would be 24K, my house would cost me 60k alone. For him he was shocked a man my age had that much expenses. College and Medical is like nothing in Europe for parents. Many rent or have small houses. And there is no 30 year mortgage. Folks have mortgage paid off sooner. He was also surprised when I quit for a higher paying more demanding job.

And they are surprised at kids. My company the average US person had 3 kids, they had tons of parents with only one kid and surprised amount of SAHM wives. They are mainly dual income.

I get weird conversations from a 50 year old European male worker with one child and a working wife talking getting ready to retire to an American man who is 50 with a 47 year old spouse withe a 12, 14 and 16 year old at home with a mortgage that is not paid off for 20 years.

They have no clue we get paid more as expenses are so much higher.

You could also live a lot more frugally. You just choose not to.

I do live frugally, but only having one kid and not paying that one kids college to do it, is not worth it. But a lot of Europeans do just that.

Other weird part of Europeans they have this weird fascinations with basements.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My last three European jobs where I worked in the US I made more than my boss in Europe which was odd.

They have tons of protections but the actual hard workers who never take advantage of that get paid way less than they deserve.

My last European boss kept asking why do I keep working or why do I care about how much I am paid. I wanted more money. It was mainly I had a job paying triple his current pay at my peak earnings years and he said when I was being honest he would retire for life if he earned that much between 45 and 56. I had to explain how much college costs, how much I had to pay for health insurance if I lost job, that I still have a mortgage and three cars and he was shocked since I had two kids in college at time, tuition was around 100K a year the two, medical would be 24K, my house would cost me 60k alone. For him he was shocked a man my age had that much expenses. College and Medical is like nothing in Europe for parents. Many rent or have small houses. And there is no 30 year mortgage. Folks have mortgage paid off sooner. He was also surprised when I quit for a higher paying more demanding job.

And they are surprised at kids. My company the average US person had 3 kids, they had tons of parents with only one kid and surprised amount of SAHM wives. They are mainly dual income.

I get weird conversations from a 50 year old European male worker with one child and a working wife talking getting ready to retire to an American man who is 50 with a 47 year old spouse withe a 12, 14 and 16 year old at home with a mortgage that is not paid off for 20 years.

They have no clue we get paid more as expenses are so much higher.

You could also live a lot more frugally. You just choose not to.

I do live frugally, but only having one kid and not paying that one kids college to do it, is not worth it. But a lot of Europeans do just that.

Other weird part of Europeans they have this weird fascinations with basements.

$60,000/year mortgage is anything but living frugally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Working with our Europe branch has been quite an intense endeavor. As part of a large tech company expanding aggressively across the region, I’ve been leading hiring efforts for multiple new office locations — and I’ve hit a wall of cultural and structural friction.

Simply put: they don’t want to work long hours. They don’t want to commit. And they have a lot of demands — mandatory holidays, strict work-hour rules, protected leave policies, the list goes on.

Yes, salaries may be half the cost of U.S.-based employees, but in many cases, it feels like you’re getting half the output. And no, that’s not an exaggeration.

Here are some of the realities we’ve faced:

One employee took a full year of maternity leave, then extended it into a second year for a new baby — with no firm return date.
A male employee took one year of paternity leave, returned just in time for “mandatory” summer PTO — a month off, like clockwork.
In Spain, we’re required to offer additional vacation banks separate from standard PTO, and summer laws restrict work to no more than 5 hours a day.
New hires often start with 20+ hours of vacation built in. Day one.

The structure seems designed to protect mediocrity — not reward performance.

Ironically, our best hires in Europe have been Americans who’ve relocated, or folks from post-Soviet countries who still bring hunger, accountability, and a willingness to go above and beyond.

I get that Europe values work-life balance. But when that balance tilts so far toward comfort that productivity suffers, it raises a real question: Is it worth it?

If you’re trying to run a business, grow fast, or compete globally, these restrictions are more than just frustrating — they’re counterproductive.

No wonder the U.S. keeps leading. Say what you will about hustle culture — it gets things done.

I worked for a European Company for 10 years at their NY location. It was called "two butts one seat" approach to staffing. Between maternity leave, paternity leave, how long to fire someone and even if you hire someone with Gardening Leave rules could be 2-3 months before they start. Hence you had to over hire.

We had a women in our German Office who took max maternity leave of two years actually got pregnant with two more kids while out on leave. She left early and took max after birth of third child. My company had to hold her job for six years. Was funny, she had a desk at work, in phone book on staff list.

The European people were shocked that in NYC we can be fired at anytime, no severance required and with no garden leave requirements workers can also quit on a moments notice. They were shocked.

It is shocking, no? ...that people can be fired at any moment. You have illness in the family, kids in college, a mortgage, then you get fired. Then what? No health insurance, kids have to drop out, you have to sell the house. Is that a great way to live? I would find this a stressful way of life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes this is obvious if you’re worked with Europeans.

Liberal websites laud their social benefits and ample leave, but rarely talk about how salaries are is incredibly low or the lack of job opportunities.

It’s painfully obvious it’s only a good place to work if you want to achieve the bare minimum.

It’s difficult to achieve much if you don’t go to work.

Most American don’t make much or achieve much, only the connected Executive class make real money. Are you one of those or just a wannabe they have fooled into thinking it could be you too?

Statistically this isn’t true.

Median Purchasing Power Parity:

the median equivalised disposable income in 2021 (USD PPP) showed:
* Luxembourg: $49,748
* United States: $48,625
* Germany: $35,537
* United Kingdom: $26,884
* France: $30,622

What statistics were you looking at?

Seriously, Luxembourg? It is the wealthiest nation in the world; of course, it is at the top.

Try Ireland at €28,235
Spain €16,480
Portugal $24,877
Italy $29,431

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My last three European jobs where I worked in the US I made more than my boss in Europe which was odd.

They have tons of protections but the actual hard workers who never take advantage of that get paid way less than they deserve.

My last European boss kept asking why do I keep working or why do I care about how much I am paid. I wanted more money. It was mainly I had a job paying triple his current pay at my peak earnings years and he said when I was being honest he would retire for life if he earned that much between 45 and 56. I had to explain how much college costs, how much I had to pay for health insurance if I lost job, that I still have a mortgage and three cars and he was shocked since I had two kids in college at time, tuition was around 100K a year the two, medical would be 24K, my house would cost me 60k alone. For him he was shocked a man my age had that much expenses. College and Medical is like nothing in Europe for parents. Many rent or have small houses. And there is no 30 year mortgage. Folks have mortgage paid off sooner. He was also surprised when I quit for a higher paying more demanding job.

And they are surprised at kids. My company the average US person had 3 kids, they had tons of parents with only one kid and surprised amount of SAHM wives. They are mainly dual income.

I get weird conversations from a 50 year old European male worker with one child and a working wife talking getting ready to retire to an American man who is 50 with a 47 year old spouse withe a 12, 14 and 16 year old at home with a mortgage that is not paid off for 20 years.

They have no clue we get paid more as expenses are so much higher.

You could also live a lot more frugally. You just choose not to.

I do live frugally, but only having one kid and not paying that one kids college to do it, is not worth it. But a lot of Europeans do just that.

Other weird part of Europeans they have this weird fascinations with basements.

$60,000/year mortgage is anything but living frugally.

The 5k a month is PITA plus utilities electric, gas, water and basic maint and lawnmowing. That is assuming nothing breaks. If I get hit water heater, roof, windows it can be more. In Europe my boss rented a house so he had no property taxes or maint and insurance is low nex to US as just a renters policy. My little tiny paid off house I had in past with no mortgage I had years where Oil burner broke or I had flooding in basement or a Kitchen finally need replacing as 50 years old. Even a cheap paid off house could cost you 60k in a year if things happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yup. And they live longer, generally healthier and have happy lives.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Some of these happiness studies are a bit odd.

Here are the results of one where the U.S. is ranked 24th, just behind Germany and the UK, but well above France:

https://data.worldhappiness.report/table

What struck if that one of the factors measured is freedom, and the study ranks the US 115th in the world. That makes no sense to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Working with our Europe branch has been quite an intense endeavor. As part of a large tech company expanding aggressively across the region, I’ve been leading hiring efforts for multiple new office locations — and I’ve hit a wall of cultural and structural friction.

Simply put: they don’t want to work long hours. They don’t want to commit. And they have a lot of demands — mandatory holidays, strict work-hour rules, protected leave policies, the list goes on.

Yes, salaries may be half the cost of U.S.-based employees, but in many cases, it feels like you’re getting half the output. And no, that’s not an exaggeration.

Here are some of the realities we’ve faced:

One employee took a full year of maternity leave, then extended it into a second year for a new baby — with no firm return date.
A male employee took one year of paternity leave, returned just in time for “mandatory” summer PTO — a month off, like clockwork.
In Spain, we’re required to offer additional vacation banks separate from standard PTO, and summer laws restrict work to no more than 5 hours a day.
New hires often start with 20+ hours of vacation built in. Day one.

The structure seems designed to protect mediocrity — not reward performance.

Ironically, our best hires in Europe have been Americans who’ve relocated, or folks from post-Soviet countries who still bring hunger, accountability, and a willingness to go above and beyond.

I get that Europe values work-life balance. But when that balance tilts so far toward comfort that productivity suffers, it raises a real question: Is it worth it?

If you’re trying to run a business, grow fast, or compete globally, these restrictions are more than just frustrating — they’re counterproductive.

No wonder the U.S. keeps leading. Say what you will about hustle culture — it gets things done.

I worked for a European Company for 10 years at their NY location. It was called "two butts one seat" approach to staffing. Between maternity leave, paternity leave, how long to fire someone and even if you hire someone with Gardening Leave rules could be 2-3 months before they start. Hence you had to over hire.

We had a women in our German Office who took max maternity leave of two years actually got pregnant with two more kids while out on leave. She left early and took max after birth of third child. My company had to hold her job for six years. Was funny, she had a desk at work, in phone book on staff list.

The European people were shocked that in NYC we can be fired at anytime, no severance required and with no garden leave requirements workers can also quit on a moments notice. They were shocked.

It is shocking, no? ...that people can be fired at any moment. You have illness in the family, kids in college, a mortgage, then you get fired. Then what? No health insurance, kids have to drop out, you have to sell the house. Is that a great way to live? I would find this a stressful way of life.

Companies wouldn’t be successful if they just went around firing people. Most companies do not want to fire employees. Regardless there is severance (often) and unemployment insurance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes this is obvious if you’re worked with Europeans.

Liberal websites laud their social benefits and ample leave, but rarely talk about how salaries are is incredibly low or the lack of job opportunities.

It’s painfully obvious it’s only a good place to work if you want to achieve the bare minimum.

It’s difficult to achieve much if you don’t go to work.

I don’t know whether their system is better but salaries could be much lower if govt provides health insurance, pension, subsidized public transportation, and food /hosuing is generally cheaper.

Except obviously they have to pay much higher taxes to fund all of this. They pay either way.

That they pay more in taxes is an old canard. Add up the cost of city, county, state, federal and FICA/SS and you’ll see our tax rates are not that different. They get a lot more for their $$$$$ than we do - more affordable housing, vacation, free or nearly free medical care and university and a guaranteed retirement rate. Contrast that with our roll the dice and maybe you’re a multi-millionire versus you just spent all your savings on college expenses for your kids or you were nearly bankrupted by medical costs. I studied in Europe for two years in the ‘80s and longed to return. Really wish I had. Now I want to retire to Europe but my kids want to stay in DC/CC/Bthsda.

they pay maybe 5% more but their roads aren't broken, schools and universities/trade schools are very good and way cheaper, even with private insurance healthcare is much cheaper, its cheaper to go on vacation, eat good food, ski & sail. also not scared you'll get shot at school. and I don't know what people are saying about the homes/cars etc. Most DCUM types who live here- middle aged people with 2 kids and professional careers live in very nice homes and drive to do their main grocery shop at sparkling shopping centers. its not the 1980s anymore. its actually the best of both worlds- you have the cute old cities and walkable areas and public transportation plus the convenience of a drivable lifestyle with big box stores/malls except for Britain. Life there is hard- you either live in the country with no public transport and tiny country lanes and it's very driving intensive but adorable and incredibly expensive or in cramped housing with awful schools and public transport and you need to have supplemental health insurance- no-one has only the nhs unless they are very young and just starting out.

[Anonymous]

Switzerland is never mentioned on these discussions (it’s not part of the EU but geographically in the center of Europe). It’s a huge employment center for internationals with the highest salaries in Europe and the world AND with European benefits.

Strange the Europe negaters never mention this.

It’s also ranked one of the most innovative countries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Working with our Europe branch has been quite an intense endeavor. As part of a large tech company expanding aggressively across the region, I’ve been leading hiring efforts for multiple new office locations — and I’ve hit a wall of cultural and structural friction.

Simply put: they don’t want to work long hours. They don’t want to commit. And they have a lot of demands — mandatory holidays, strict work-hour rules, protected leave policies, the list goes on.

Yes, salaries may be half the cost of U.S.-based employees, but in many cases, it feels like you’re getting half the output. And no, that’s not an exaggeration.

Here are some of the realities we’ve faced:

One employee took a full year of maternity leave, then extended it into a second year for a new baby — with no firm return date.
A male employee took one year of paternity leave, returned just in time for “mandatory” summer PTO — a month off, like clockwork.
In Spain, we’re required to offer additional vacation banks separate from standard PTO, and summer laws restrict work to no more than 5 hours a day.
New hires often start with 20+ hours of vacation built in. Day one.

The structure seems designed to protect mediocrity — not reward performance.

Ironically, our best hires in Europe have been Americans who’ve relocated, or folks from post-Soviet countries who still bring hunger, accountability, and a willingness to go above and beyond.

I get that Europe values work-life balance. But when that balance tilts so far toward comfort that productivity suffers, it raises a real question: Is it worth it?

If you’re trying to run a business, grow fast, or compete globally, these restrictions are more than just frustrating — they’re counterproductive.

No wonder the U.S. keeps leading. Say what you will about hustle culture — it gets things done.

I worked for a European Company for 10 years at their NY location. It was called "two butts one seat" approach to staffing. Between maternity leave, paternity leave, how long to fire someone and even if you hire someone with Gardening Leave rules could be 2-3 months before they start. Hence you had to over hire.

We had a women in our German Office who took max maternity leave of two years actually got pregnant with two more kids while out on leave. She left early and took max after birth of third child. My company had to hold her job for six years. Was funny, she had a desk at work, in phone book on staff list.

The European people were shocked that in NYC we can be fired at anytime, no severance required and with no garden leave requirements workers can also quit on a moments notice. They were shocked.

It is shocking, no? ...that people can be fired at any moment. You have illness in the family, kids in college, a mortgage, then you get fired. Then what? No health insurance, kids have to drop out, you have to sell the house. Is that a great way to live? I would find this a stressful way of life.

Sounds like you never planned for a rainy day.

[Anonymous]

Wait, people are just finding out now that Europe sucks in terms of work ethic? And you wonder why they have such loooooooowwwwww salaries. They almost never work, are lazy, and went to live off govt money.

And Americans think it'd be amazing to go live in Europe.. .... Yeah, have fun trying to live off 40% your current salary with double the amount of taxation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some of these happiness studies are a bit odd.

Here are the results of one where the U.S. is ranked 24th, just behind Germany and the UK, but well above France:

https://data.worldhappiness.report/table

What struck if that one of the factors measured is freedom, and the study ranks the US 115th in the world. That makes no sense to me.

American land use restrictions alone are enough to knock us down many rungs of the freedom ladder.