Equitable access to advanced math

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What FCPS needs is a policy similar to what texas has implemented to encourage students to take on advanced math in middle school. The texas state law now requires school districts and charter schools to automatically enroll fifth graders who score in the top 40% on the state standardized math test in advanced math in sixth grade. Families can opt their children out of the advanced class if they choose.

"research has found that students who take four years of math in high school are twice as likely to get a postsecondary credential, such as a certificate, an associate’s degree or a bachelor’s degree. Students whose fourth year of math is a college-aligned course are six times as likely to get a postsecondary credential."

https://www.kut.org/education/2023-06-28/kids-are-probably-better-at-math-than-they-think-a-new-texas-law-could-help-them-realize-it

Reminder that this whole stupid thread is based on a persistent, ignorant OP who refuses to understand that prealgebra in 7th grade is not the same as Algebra 1 in 6th grade, and FCPS already does what is being " proposed" .

It seems like you're the one fervently arguing that 6th graders cannot grasp Algebra 1, despite the fact that our immediate neighboring school system consistently enrolls qualified 6th graders in Algebra 1 with flawless learning outcomes.

There is a difference between enrolling 1% of 6th graders in algebra 1 and enrolling 100% of 6th graders in algebra 1.

granting top 1 or 1.5% with opportunity to advanced math of algebra 1 in 6th grade across all schools, is equitable. isn't it?

The opportunity sure. Unfortunately FCPS's idea of equity is to reduce math for all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What FCPS needs is a policy similar to what texas has implemented to encourage students to take on advanced math in middle school. The texas state law now requires school districts and charter schools to automatically enroll fifth graders who score in the top 40% on the state standardized math test in advanced math in sixth grade. Families can opt their children out of the advanced class if they choose.

"research has found that students who take four years of math in high school are twice as likely to get a postsecondary credential, such as a certificate, an associate’s degree or a bachelor’s degree. Students whose fourth year of math is a college-aligned course are six times as likely to get a postsecondary credential."

https://www.kut.org/education/2023-06-28/kids-are-probably-better-at-math-than-they-think-a-new-texas-law-could-help-them-realize-it

Reminder that this whole stupid thread is based on a persistent, ignorant OP who refuses to understand that prealgebra in 7th grade is not the same as Algebra 1 in 6th grade, and FCPS already does what is being " proposed" .

It seems like you're the one fervently arguing that 6th graders cannot grasp Algebra 1, despite the fact that our immediate neighboring school system consistently enrolls qualified 6th graders in Algebra 1 with flawless learning outcomes.

There is a difference between enrolling 1% of 6th graders in algebra 1 and enrolling 100% of 6th graders in algebra 1.

granting top 1 or 1.5% with opportunity to advanced math of algebra 1 in 6th grade across all schools, is equitable. isn't it?

The opportunity sure. Unfortunately FCPS's idea of equity is to reduce math for all.

No it isn't. FCPS isn't doing that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What FCPS needs is a policy similar to what texas has implemented to encourage students to take on advanced math in middle school. The texas state law now requires school districts and charter schools to automatically enroll fifth graders who score in the top 40% on the state standardized math test in advanced math in sixth grade. Families can opt their children out of the advanced class if they choose.

"research has found that students who take four years of math in high school are twice as likely to get a postsecondary credential, such as a certificate, an associate’s degree or a bachelor’s degree. Students whose fourth year of math is a college-aligned course are six times as likely to get a postsecondary credential."

https://www.kut.org/education/2023-06-28/kids-are-probably-better-at-math-than-they-think-a-new-texas-law-could-help-them-realize-it

Reminder that this whole stupid thread is based on a persistent, ignorant OP who refuses to understand that prealgebra in 7th grade is not the same as Algebra 1 in 6th grade, and FCPS already does what is being " proposed" .

It seems like you're the one fervently arguing that 6th graders cannot grasp Algebra 1, despite the fact that our immediate neighboring school system consistently enrolls qualified 6th graders in Algebra 1 with flawless learning outcomes.

There is a difference between enrolling 1% of 6th graders in algebra 1 and enrolling 100% of 6th graders in algebra 1.

granting top 1 or 1.5% with opportunity to advanced math of algebra 1 in 6th grade across all schools, is equitable. isn't it?

Equity has been weaponized to the point where it is destroying authentic education.

+1
equal opportunity - bring it on
equity of outcome - will never happen as long as humans are unique beings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
you seem to be misinformed. Many counties across US have kids completing algebra 1 comfortably in 6th grade. multiple sections across many middle schools in LoCo.

It is not that many. You have a lot of kids taking summer geometry after 7th grade and thus lots of algebra 2 kids in 8th grade.
The numbers were a little higher before, but then Loudoun implemented VMPI ahead of the state and the numbers dropped along with closing of school's reducing test scores.

That’s because people don’t know how it’s done.

The kid has to score 145 on the cogat math, then do a screener pre IAAT, then take the IAAT then the sol.

Neighbor’s child scored a couple of points off on ln the quant CogAT, and by the time they thought the child was ready for Algebra I and inquired there was no time to retake the CogAT.

Totally NOT transparent.

The people that are in the know plan for this ahead of time. Others suck it up with summer classes.

Still others are fine with a child being 2 years ahead of the math curriculum and not three. I suspect that most fall into this category. DS could have handled algebra in 6th but is fine taking it next year. I wouldn’t want him taking the class virtually and I don’t think getting up early to be on the bus to MS and then having to be transported to his ES is a great work around.

The point is not that some parents don’t want to accelerate their child, but that the criteria is hidden and only serves the ones that know. Just because you know, doesn’t mean that you’ll take the opportunity. It actually helps you make an informed decision.

Fair point.

No it's not. The criteria to take Algebra in 6th grade isn't hidden. It's very high and the class is inappropriate for the vast majority of students, whether or not they are URM.

Can you please point to the link that explains this criteria?

I’m waiting for that source!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fcps allows HS graduation with just Algebra 2, works for those that don't get math. But using that as baseline and restricting students from taking advanced above grade math to avoid widening equity gap is where the problem is.

While increasing math choices at lower end help with graduation and discourage dropouts, I dont get the idea of restricting accelerated and advanced math choices on higher end. Why put a lid on how much a kid learns?

You can't put kids who aren't ready for it into an advanced class. It drags down the whole class. If a kid shows readiness by having a decent score on a gatekeeping test, by all means put any kid who demonstrates readiness into the class.

It would be fine to put kids who aren't ready for it into an advanced class to let them try it - the trick is to *not* let it drag down the whole class. We need to get OK with setting a pace and saying, OK, this is the pace we're going at - kids who aren't keeping up will either fail or get bumped down a level. IMO the issue is that we don't do that part. If we did, we could be a lot more equitable - let everyone who wants to. or even everyone by default, try AAP or advanced math or whatever. Maybe then parents won't be so insistent that their kids need to be accelerated if they really aren't ready for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fcps allows HS graduation with just Algebra 2, works for those that don't get math. But using that as baseline and restricting students from taking advanced above grade math to avoid widening equity gap is where the problem is.

While increasing math choices at lower end help with graduation and discourage dropouts, I dont get the idea of restricting accelerated and advanced math choices on higher end. Why put a lid on how much a kid learns?

You can't put kids who aren't ready for it into an advanced class. It drags down the whole class. If a kid shows readiness by having a decent score on a gatekeeping test, by all means put any kid who demonstrates readiness into the class.

It would be fine to put kids who aren't ready for it into an advanced class to let them try it - the trick is to *not* let it drag down the whole class. We need to get OK with setting a pace and saying, OK, this is the pace we're going at - kids who aren't keeping up will either fail or get bumped down a level. IMO the issue is that we don't do that part. If we did, we could be a lot more equitable - let everyone who wants to. or even everyone by default, try AAP or advanced math or whatever. Maybe then parents won't be so insistent that their kids need to be accelerated if they really aren't ready for it.

The "advanced by default" is a stupid concept (regardless of race) which would quickly devolve into a big resource suck, requiring an infinite amount of resources to prop up students who don't have the aptitude, preparation, or interest in the class. Some families won't know how to opt out or will be unwilling to do so. And when the students start failing in huge numbers, you'll have another big "equity" issue on your hands.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fcps allows HS graduation with just Algebra 2, works for those that don't get math. But using that as baseline and restricting students from taking advanced above grade math to avoid widening equity gap is where the problem is.

While increasing math choices at lower end help with graduation and discourage dropouts, I dont get the idea of restricting accelerated and advanced math choices on higher end. Why put a lid on how much a kid learns?

You can't put kids who aren't ready for it into an advanced class. It drags down the whole class. If a kid shows readiness by having a decent score on a gatekeeping test, by all means put any kid who demonstrates readiness into the class.

It would be fine to put kids who aren't ready for it into an advanced class to let them try it - the trick is to *not* let it drag down the whole class. We need to get OK with setting a pace and saying, OK, this is the pace we're going at - kids who aren't keeping up will either fail or get bumped down a level. IMO the issue is that we don't do that part. If we did, we could be a lot more equitable - let everyone who wants to. or even everyone by default, try AAP or advanced math or whatever. Maybe then parents won't be so insistent that their kids need to be accelerated if they really aren't ready for it.

Very few parents are insistent on acceleration. But they are vocal, and they're the same ones that if they get the acceleration and fail at it, will blame and harass the teachers instead of dropping back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
you seem to be misinformed. Many counties across US have kids completing algebra 1 comfortably in 6th grade. multiple sections across many middle schools in LoCo.

It is not that many. You have a lot of kids taking summer geometry after 7th grade and thus lots of algebra 2 kids in 8th grade.
The numbers were a little higher before, but then Loudoun implemented VMPI ahead of the state and the numbers dropped along with closing of school's reducing test scores.

That’s because people don’t know how it’s done.

The kid has to score 145 on the cogat math, then do a screener pre IAAT, then take the IAAT then the sol.

Neighbor’s child scored a couple of points off on ln the quant CogAT, and by the time they thought the child was ready for Algebra I and inquired there was no time to retake the CogAT.

Totally NOT transparent.

The people that are in the know plan for this ahead of time. Others suck it up with summer classes.

Still others are fine with a child being 2 years ahead of the math curriculum and not three. I suspect that most fall into this category. DS could have handled algebra in 6th but is fine taking it next year. I wouldn’t want him taking the class virtually and I don’t think getting up early to be on the bus to MS and then having to be transported to his ES is a great work around.

The point is not that some parents don’t want to accelerate their child, but that the criteria is hidden and only serves the ones that know. Just because you know, doesn’t mean that you’ll take the opportunity. It actually helps you make an informed decision.

Fair point.

No it's not. The criteria to take Algebra in 6th grade isn't hidden. It's very high and the class is inappropriate for the vast majority of students, whether or not they are URM.

Can you please point to the link that explains this criteria?

They can't. FCPS has an official policy that is at least somewhat widely known, but they aren't putting it out there for public consumption. IIRC, the bar is that the kid needs a CogAT Quant score of 145 or higher, a 575 or higher on the 4th grade math SOL, and the teacher's recommendation to be considered for further testing. Then, someone from gatehouse administers some test, and if the kid passes, the kid can take 6th grade AAP math in 5th grade.

The most important criterion, though, is having a principal who is willing to allow the acceleration. You could have a child with a perfect CogAT Q and SOLs, who isn't given the opportunity because the principal isn't participating in the acceleration.

[Anonymous]

Many school systems gatekeep a bit too much for advanced math. In FCPS, there are a lot of kids who would be quite capable of 6th grade Algebra, but made one or two careless mistakes on a test taken in 2nd grade, and thus don't meet the CogAT cutoff.

Iready is given every year and has a very high ceiling. FCPS should be looking into acceleration options for the kids who are far into the 99th percentile. Many of these kids spend all of their early and mid ES years learning nothing at all in their school math class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many school systems gatekeep a bit too much for advanced math. In FCPS, there are a lot of kids who would be quite capable of 6th grade Algebra, but made one or two careless mistakes on a test taken in 2nd grade, and thus don't meet the CogAT cutoff.

Iready is given every year and has a very high ceiling. FCPS should be looking into acceleration options for the kids who are far into the 99th percentile. Many of these kids spend all of their early and mid ES years learning nothing at all in their school math class.

Keeping equity bs aside, can you imagine the progress FCPS would be making on math excellence front if thousands of students were taught the next level instead?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many school systems gatekeep a bit too much for advanced math. In FCPS, there are a lot of kids who would be quite capable of 6th grade Algebra, but made one or two careless mistakes on a test taken in 2nd grade, and thus don't meet the CogAT cutoff.

Iready is given every year and has a very high ceiling. FCPS should be looking into acceleration options for the kids who are far into the 99th percentile. Many of these kids spend all of their early and mid ES years learning nothing at all in their school math class.

Keeping equity bs aside, can you imagine the progress FCPS would be making on math excellence front if thousands of students were taught the next level instead?

BS? Are you for real? You should move to Florida or somewhere that average people like you, with middling educations, go to raise their families. DMV isn't it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many school systems gatekeep a bit too much for advanced math. In FCPS, there are a lot of kids who would be quite capable of 6th grade Algebra, but made one or two careless mistakes on a test taken in 2nd grade, and thus don't meet the CogAT cutoff.

Iready is given every year and has a very high ceiling. FCPS should be looking into acceleration options for the kids who are far into the 99th percentile. Many of these kids spend all of their early and mid ES years learning nothing at all in their school math class.

Keeping equity bs aside, can you imagine the progress FCPS would be making on math excellence front if thousands of students were taught the next level instead?

BS? Are you for real? You should move to Florida or somewhere that average people like you, with middling educations, go to raise their families. DMV isn't it.

DP: To the immediate PP with the snark: Why so nasty? You have no idea who you are responding to. That poster may well have a better education than you. And possibly exceed your definition of average, whatever that is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many school systems gatekeep a bit too much for advanced math. In FCPS, there are a lot of kids who would be quite capable of 6th grade Algebra, but made one or two careless mistakes on a test taken in 2nd grade, and thus don't meet the CogAT cutoff.

Iready is given every year and has a very high ceiling. FCPS should be looking into acceleration options for the kids who are far into the 99th percentile. Many of these kids spend all of their early and mid ES years learning nothing at all in their school math class.

Keeping equity bs aside, can you imagine the progress FCPS would be making on math excellence front if thousands of students were taught the next level instead?

My impression is that if a kid is far into the 99th percentile on iready and demonstrates at the beginning-of-year math testing that they already know everything that is to be taught that year, FCPS does absolutely nothing for that kid. They could push them into a higher grade level class. They could at least provide extra push in enrichment or exempt the kid from the regular class and instead let them do AoPS/Beast academy. But for the most part, they do absolutely nothing and let the kid be bored out of their minds for the year. The very small handful of kids who are skipped ahead in FCPS were fortunate enough to have teachers and principals who wanted them to learn at the right level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many school systems gatekeep a bit too much for advanced math. In FCPS, there are a lot of kids who would be quite capable of 6th grade Algebra, but made one or two careless mistakes on a test taken in 2nd grade, and thus don't meet the CogAT cutoff.

Iready is given every year and has a very high ceiling. FCPS should be looking into acceleration options for the kids who are far into the 99th percentile. Many of these kids spend all of their early and mid ES years learning nothing at all in their school math class.

Keeping equity bs aside, can you imagine the progress FCPS would be making on math excellence front if thousands of students were taught the next level instead?

My impression is that if a kid is far into the 99th percentile on iready and demonstrates at the beginning-of-year math testing that they already know everything that is to be taught that year, FCPS does absolutely nothing for that kid. They could push them into a higher grade level class. They could at least provide extra push in enrichment or exempt the kid from the regular class and instead let them do AoPS/Beast academy. But for the most part, they do absolutely nothing and let the kid be bored out of their minds for the year. The very small handful of kids who are skipped ahead in FCPS were fortunate enough to have teachers and principals who wanted them to learn at the right level.

Does FCPS provide AoPS/Beast Academy materials for advanced kids? Or this is just a suggestion? Just wondering because coincidentally I was looking at these for summer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many school systems gatekeep a bit too much for advanced math. In FCPS, there are a lot of kids who would be quite capable of 6th grade Algebra, but made one or two careless mistakes on a test taken in 2nd grade, and thus don't meet the CogAT cutoff.

Iready is given every year and has a very high ceiling. FCPS should be looking into acceleration options for the kids who are far into the 99th percentile. Many of these kids spend all of their early and mid ES years learning nothing at all in their school math class.

Keeping equity bs aside, can you imagine the progress FCPS would be making on math excellence front if thousands of students were taught the next level instead?

My impression is that if a kid is far into the 99th percentile on iready and demonstrates at the beginning-of-year math testing that they already know everything that is to be taught that year, FCPS does absolutely nothing for that kid. They could push them into a higher grade level class. They could at least provide extra push in enrichment or exempt the kid from the regular class and instead let them do AoPS/Beast academy. But for the most part, they do absolutely nothing and let the kid be bored out of their minds for the year. The very small handful of kids who are skipped ahead in FCPS were fortunate enough to have teachers and principals who wanted them to learn at the right level.

Does FCPS provide AoPS/Beast Academy materials for advanced kids? Or this is just a suggestion? Just wondering because coincidentally I was looking at these for summer.

No of course they don't. Such nonsense.