Donut hole reality

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We don’t qualify for need-based aid. Here’s how it shook out for us, including merit aid:

Regional in-state: 15k
Flagship in-state: 30k
Flagship out-of-state public: $48k
Higher-ranked private: $72k

We went with the third option. My guess is that employers will begin to take private school grads with a grain of salt: they may be very bright, or they may just be very rich.

You can be rich and very bright at same time. Rich kids do not just "get admission" to an elite private because they are rich (except for someone ala Bush or Clinton or parent is Hollywood star). Those kids are also very smart, they just happen to have rich parents or parents who have saved for $90K/year college.
I'd argue it doesn't make sense to do option 3, unless your state flagship is not very good. UVA/VAtech and UMD are all great schools and I cannot see paying extra to go anywhere else if my kid gets in

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We don’t qualify for need-based aid. Here’s how it shook out for us, including merit aid:

Regional in-state: 15k
Flagship in-state: 30k
Flagship out-of-state public: $48k
Higher-ranked private: $72k

We went with the third option. My guess is that employers will begin to take private school grads with a grain of salt: they may be very bright, or they may just be very rich.

You can be rich and very bright at same time. Rich kids do not just "get admission" to an elite private because they are rich (except for someone ala Bush or Clinton or parent is Hollywood star). Those kids are also very smart, they just happen to have rich parents or parents who have saved for $90K/year college.
I'd argue it doesn't make sense to do option 3, unless your state flagship is not very good. UVA/VAtech and UMD are all great schools and I cannot see paying extra to go anywhere else if my kid gets in

Some out of state flagships give better merit aid. Look at WVU, it's cheaper than most instate MD and VA schools.

[Anonymous]

I just filled out the NPC for Boston College with 180 AGI + 30k untaxed. Total cost of attendance $63K. Not nothing but not $100k.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's ridiculous. Send your kid to a decent public school - there are plenty of them.

Most likely what we are doing- W&M or UVA

I just read all these people fighting over prestige and it’s crazy. My kid got into many of these schools they are raving about, but not worth the $.

Don't say you don't care about prestige and then throw out you're planning on UVA or W&M. GMAFB.

I thought the exact same thing when I read that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Too much whining. There are also cars that cost $400,000. If you don’t want to pay that, there are reliable options that are a fraction of that. Same with colleges.

Community colleges, GI Bill, colleges away from the coasts, graduate in 3 years etc. Out-of-state merit aid at large public universities in unglamorous states can be amazing even if kid isn’t brilliant.

Your analogy is stupid. People do not need a luxury vehicle. Education is necessary. And when you have certain families cut out of the "luxury" market, while subsidizing others who will get to go to those institutions for free or low cost, that is the sign of a problem. It should not be this way for anyone.

It's actually a great and accurate analogy.

Education is necessary. But if you think the only way to get it is via T25 elite schools you are sadly mistaken. A smart kid will excel no matter where they attend. Why? Because of who they are. It's the drive, determination and work ethic that will get them far in life, not the exact school they attend.
There are plenty of affordable ways to get an education. Stop whining that you cannot afford the elite school that 95%+ will get rejected from anyhow and focus on finding the right fit for your kid at the right price.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s not donut hole. That’s a comfortable family. The rest of our kids go to state schools.

But not really. The whole reason people talk about a donut hole is that extraordinary kids from lower middle class families (up to $85k, which is 55th percentile HHI) go to elite private universities for free, and extraordinary kids from true middle class families (up to $150k, which is 80th percentile HHI) go for $15k or less. Those kids are not going to state schools. They’re going to elite private schools, because for them it’s cheaper than going to state schools.

The vast majority of kids from families making 150K or less are NOT attending elite private schools. They are going to their state U or whatever 4 year is local to them so they can live at home, work and attend school. Or they start at CC and transfer for last 2 years to make it affordable. That is the reality. Sure if you get into an elite school you will get FA, but it's not even on the radar for most kids from households below $100-150K.

Mine (same hhi) applied to a variety and got need aid from elites and mid tier (where we thought she would just get merit). And state schools. So went for the elites for aid and state for list price and some mids with hope for merit and pleasantly surprised with some need aid at schools where we didn't expect it. Wide variety of coas though. Dartmouth way cheaper than Drexel. But WPI surprising with mix and Wes very generous need (better than Dartmouth). It's a blend of working NPCs, scanning threads for merit reports, adding some definitely affordable schools and hoping for the best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child is interested in a very niche major that is not available in any VA public schools. Even with the academic common market, her only in state options are two schools in Kentucky.

But it is necessary to have that niche major to get a job later?

She probably doesn’t need to work, PP. There’s a name for people like this.

I'm very confused by this statement. I am the one who posted this originally a our my daughter who, if you must know, wants to be an ASL interpreter. Yes, she needs to work. I am discouraged that there are no in state options for her. She does not want to go to NOVA, but I am aware that is a thing she can do. Why did you think she doesn't need to work?

[Anonymous]

The way siblings are calculated for financial aid completely changed. We have kids one grade level apart. We always thought our oldest might be interested in a gap year so we really thought we would have two kids in college during the same 4 year period.

That is what we planned for and unfortunately for us the way financial aid is calculated has completely changed and we are now expected to pay double what we thought, which we are unable to do. So sometimes you plan but the parameters fundamentally change. So if you have multiple kids in college and are expecting some aid, start calculating again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Too much whining. There are also cars that cost $400,000. If you don’t want to pay that, there are reliable options that are a fraction of that. Same with colleges.

Community colleges, GI Bill, colleges away from the coasts, graduate in 3 years etc. Out-of-state merit aid at large public universities in unglamorous states can be amazing even if kid isn’t brilliant.

Your analogy is stupid. People do not need a luxury vehicle. Education is necessary. And when you have certain families cut out of the "luxury" market, while subsidizing others who will get to go to those institutions for free or low cost, that is the sign of a problem. It should not be this way for anyone.

You’re an idiot. Nobody is saying people don’t need college. But they don’t “need” expensive colleges, & PP named several ways to bring costs back down to earth. But you’d rather complain than use any of those tactics.

I agree the donut hole families don't "need" expensive colleges. But couldn't the same be said about poor students? They don't "need" expensive colleges either. Have them go to an in-state school where the government will fund their education 100%.

Then full pay families wouldn't have to subsidize them at the fancy, private colleges. Since full pay families are no longer subsidizing poor students, the full pay tuition can be reduced to the true cost of educating their own student.

If the in-state schools did fully fund their education, majority of "lower income students" would take it. These are kids who stress over the cost of transportation to/from college.

Also, the kids who benefit the most from an elite college experience are the first gen/lower income students. multiple studies over the years have shown this. Otherwise, where you attend college does not really matter, it's what you do while you are there that matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s not donut hole. That’s a comfortable family. The rest of our kids go to state schools.

This. If you have sticker shock, but the ability to pay you aren't really a donut hole.

Ability to pay is often at the cost of liquidating retirement funds, home equity, life style and nursing home savings.

Shouldn't be. The top schools have excellent need based FA. Many who would be a fafsa doughnut hole would get FA. To be paying full price means, you are well off in earnings and non-retirement assets. Even home equity is often capped (not 2nd or 3rd home of course).

The real problem is failing to save. No one should expect to cashflow college. We started saving when kids in elementary and thought we were late to the game.

Bullsh. First of all, by the time you get to college aged kids, you may be making the most salary you've made. But almost no one makes that their entire career. We saved and save a LOT. We have old cars. No second home. No generational wealth. We have good retirement. Those are the things we've funded: college and retirement.

But all of those things are counted against us, as if we can cashflow $50-90k/year. We can't. And we aren't getting aid. We've made our peace with the schools are high stats kid can go (based on finances) and have had to forego much better schools b/c of money. It should not be this way.

I get that those of you not as well off like to dump on higher earners (UMC) to make yourselves feel better. But we've done everything right. Both coming from just above poverty line upbringings. The "American Dream" of work hard and good things flow from that is a bunch of horse sh-- when it comes to college admissions and sending your kids to the best school. The very wealthy get that opportunity. The poor get that opportunity. No one else.

Why shouldn't it be that way? Your kid is not being denied an education. There are 4000+ universities in the USA. A great student can find multiple very affordable options in the T100 and many more in the 100-200 range. So can a good student.

Income defines most choices in life. If you don't make enough, you cannot afford to live in area with best public schools or to send your kids to private K-12. Income defines what car I drive, what vacation I take, how much tutoring and experiences I can provide for my kids thru life.
But if you truly want the opportunity for "free elite college" go back and live with sub $100K income for 18+ years and forgo all the opportunities your family had and your kids had during this time. And then you might get more FA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s not donut hole. That’s a comfortable family. The rest of our kids go to state schools.

This. If you have sticker shock, but the ability to pay you aren't really a donut hole.

Ability to pay is often at the cost of liquidating retirement funds, home equity, life style and nursing home savings.

Shouldn't be. The top schools have excellent need based FA. Many who would be a fafsa doughnut hole would get FA. To be paying full price means, you are well off in earnings and non-retirement assets. Even home equity is often capped (not 2nd or 3rd home of course).

The real problem is failing to save. No one should expect to cashflow college. We started saving when kids in elementary and thought we were late to the game.

Bullsh. First of all, by the time you get to college aged kids, you may be making the most salary you've made. But almost no one makes that their entire career. We saved and save a LOT. We have old cars. No second home. No generational wealth. We have good retirement. Those are the things we've funded: college and retirement.

But all of those things are counted against us, as if we can cashflow $50-90k/year. We can't. And we aren't getting aid. We've made our peace with the schools are high stats kid can go (based on finances) and have had to forego much better schools b/c of money. It should not be this way.

I get that those of you not as well off like to dump on higher earners (UMC) to make yourselves feel better. But we've done everything right. Both coming from just above poverty line upbringings. The "American Dream" of work hard and good things flow from that is a bunch of horse sh-- when it comes to college admissions and sending your kids to the best school. The very wealthy get that opportunity. The poor get that opportunity. No one else.

You live under your means, you save starting at birth and when your income increases you save it vs changing your spending.

THis 100%. If you were only making $100K 18 years ago and now make $200K, you could have chosen to save the extra $100K each year (or as it grew X$) Instead if you chose to increase your lifestyle over time, you made a choice to do that instead of saving for college. If you had even saved $20K/year for 10 years you would be at $300K and could still be using $20-30K to cash flow each year. There are people at your income level who have done just that. You instead are upset someone with a much harder life is getting something you are not. But in reality, the odds of your kid getting into these highly rejective schools is very small.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is a thread like this every year. The top privates have no problem finding full pay kids.

Randomly responding to this post, but mean it more broadly.

I am the parent of a junior just in college tours now.

I truly don’t get how this all works — everywhere we go talks about being need blind, meet all financial need with no loans, well over 50% of students get financial aid. Some, like Vanderbilt, seem to show that aid ends at over $250k HHI.

How does that all make sense? Who is getting all this “free” money? And if so many need FA (understandably because costs are obscene), why not just lower the price for everyone?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s not donut hole. That’s a comfortable family. The rest of our kids go to state schools.

This. If you have sticker shock, but the ability to pay you aren't really a donut hole.

Ability to pay is often at the cost of liquidating retirement funds, home equity, life style and nursing home savings.

Shouldn't be. The top schools have excellent need based FA. Many who would be a fafsa doughnut hole would get FA. To be paying full price means, you are well off in earnings and non-retirement assets. Even home equity is often capped (not 2nd or 3rd home of course).

The real problem is failing to save. No one should expect to cashflow college. We started saving when kids in elementary and thought we were late to the game.

Bullsh. First of all, by the time you get to college aged kids, you may be making the most salary you've made. But almost no one makes that their entire career. We saved and save a LOT. We have old cars. No second home. No generational wealth. We have good retirement. Those are the things we've funded: college and retirement.

But all of those things are counted against us, as if we can cashflow $50-90k/year. We can't. And we aren't getting aid. We've made our peace with the schools are high stats kid can go (based on finances) and have had to forego much better schools b/c of money. It should not be this way.

I get that those of you not as well off like to dump on higher earners (UMC) to make yourselves feel better. But we've done everything right. Both coming from just above poverty line upbringings. The "American Dream" of work hard and good things flow from that is a bunch of horse sh-- when it comes to college admissions and sending your kids to the best school. The very wealthy get that opportunity. The poor get that opportunity. No one else.

Bs back atcha. We made a lot less (like less than 70k) early on and saved what we could. It didn't count that much against us. Home equity didn't count against us -- we focused on schools that capped or didn't include hone equity. Even a few that did had good NPC numbers. We are middle class, not poor. We have good 529 savings. We also got decent aid at several schools. We focused on private schools where we'd be eligible based on NPCs and targeted state schools that would be more affordable.

My whole point is that no one should expect to cash flow college. You either didn't plan the savings or the college app choices well enough. There are lots of options with different price tags if you make over 300k and didn't save. Barring medical costs or unforeseen financial crises (and those can be included in Fa apps/appeals), I just don't get the rage on this. If we had the means to save 100k per kid going from 70k to 140k over the years, why can't people who make more save more? Even savings of 200k per kid plus loans and some cashflow would cover most schools.

Because most people don't want to be held responsible for their own choices. They wanted to increase their lifestyle as their income increased. So they chose that instead of the responsible act of saving for college. It's a choice---if T20/$90K/year schools are something you want for your family then you plan accordingly. Otherwise you should plan for instate schools and save accordingly. There are people at $200K who have it saved for their kids---why? Because they chose to do it and forgo other things for college savings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We don’t qualify for need-based aid. Here’s how it shook out for us, including merit aid:

Regional in-state: 15k
Flagship in-state: 30k
Flagship out-of-state public: $48k
Higher-ranked private: $72k

We went with the third option. My guess is that employers will begin to take private school grads with a grain of salt: they may be very bright, or they may just be very rich.

You can be rich and very bright at same time. Rich kids do not just "get admission" to an elite private because they are rich (except for someone ala Bush or Clinton or parent is Hollywood star). Those kids are also very smart, they just happen to have rich parents or parents who have saved for $90K/year college.
I'd argue it doesn't make sense to do option 3, unless your state flagship is not very good. UVA/VAtech and UMD are all great schools and I cannot see paying extra to go anywhere else if my kid gets in

Some out of state flagships give better merit aid. Look at WVU, it's cheaper than most instate MD and VA schools.

Exactly! There are plenty of options if you have a specific price point in mind. I'm West Coast and good friends kid went to WVU for engineering because it's excellent for MEchE/Aerospace. With merit it was less than our excellent flagship. If you think you have the resume for UMD/UVA/VaTech, you most certainly will get into WVU and it will be very affordable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s not donut hole. That’s a comfortable family. The rest of our kids go to state schools.

But not really. The whole reason people talk about a donut hole is that extraordinary kids from lower middle class families (up to $85k, which is 55th percentile HHI) go to elite private universities for free, and extraordinary kids from true middle class families (up to $150k, which is 80th percentile HHI) go for $15k or less. Those kids are not going to state schools. They’re going to elite private schools, because for them it’s cheaper than going to state schools.

The vast majority of kids from families making 150K or less are NOT attending elite private schools. They are going to their state U or whatever 4 year is local to them so they can live at home, work and attend school. Or they start at CC and transfer for last 2 years to make it affordable. That is the reality. Sure if you get into an elite school you will get FA, but it's not even on the radar for most kids from households below $100-150K.

Mine (same hhi) applied to a variety and got need aid from elites and mid tier (where we thought she would just get merit). And state schools. So went for the elites for aid and state for list price and some mids with hope for merit and pleasantly surprised with some need aid at schools where we didn't expect it. Wide variety of coas though. Dartmouth way cheaper than Drexel. But WPI surprising with mix and Wes very generous need (better than Dartmouth). It's a blend of working NPCs, scanning threads for merit reports, adding some definitely affordable schools and hoping for the best.

See---there are many affordable options out there. we didn't need merit, but my kid attended a T80 (price of $65K) for ~$40K/year. Had same offer for a similar T80 school and could have attended a T120 (cost of $75K) for $30K/year. We were not even chasing merit and managed to find good merit. Had I been searching that kid could have gotten even better (1200/3.5UW/No AP kiddo). So do your homework and let your kid know what you can afford---don't let them apply to very many high priced schools unless you have reason to believe they will get FA and/or merit to make it affordable.