What is normal for 9th grade math

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is in the private school forum?…

My public school kid is completing Algebra II/Geometry in 7th grade. (Normal at her school is 8th grade.)

Glad I’m not paying $50k a year to be several years behind where she is now.

Glad I can easily afford to pay $50k per year for tuition. I also don’t need to post on a private school forum pretending that taking Algebra II/Geometry in 7th grade is a flex. My private school children will take Calculus BC in 12th grade. They don’t need to take math electives their senior year (or load up on APs (because they’re not offered at our school)) to be competitive. That’s what public school students have to do.

I hope that your children enjoy the education for the unwashed masses they’re receiving.

that would suck if your kid is into STEM. Most STEM oriented kids in our public take BC Calc in 11th, and MVC/diffeq in 12th.

They really don't. How many sections are there of MVC/DIFFEQ in your school? And how many kids per section? And how many in the whole senior class? Because even if I assume that there are 3 sections (which I doubt) with 30 kids in each (which I also doubt), and maybe 400 in the whole class, that's still less than 1/4 of seniors who are on this track, and I guarantee that there are at least 150-200 kids out of those 400 who consider themselves STEM kids.

And I really can't even envision more than 30 kids being on that track, unless you're specifically talking about TJ or a magnet school, in which case, I will point you to the thread title of "normal for 9th grade math."

At our middling public middle school, about 20% of kids will take algebra in 7th which leads to calc in 11th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is in the private school forum?…

My public school kid is completing Algebra II/Geometry in 7th grade. (Normal at her school is 8th grade.)

Glad I’m not paying $50k a year to be several years behind where she is now.

Glad I can easily afford to pay $50k per year for tuition. I also don’t need to post on a private school forum pretending that taking Algebra II/Geometry in 7th grade is a flex. My private school children will take Calculus BC in 12th grade. They don’t need to take math electives their senior year (or load up on APs (because they’re not offered at our school)) to be competitive. That’s what public school students have to do.

I hope that your children enjoy the education for the unwashed masses they’re receiving.

that would suck if your kid is into STEM. Most STEM oriented kids in our public take BC Calc in 11th, and MVC/diffeq in 12th.

They really don't. How many sections are there of MVC/DIFFEQ in your school? And how many kids per section? And how many in the whole senior class? Because even if I assume that there are 3 sections (which I doubt) with 30 kids in each (which I also doubt), and maybe 400 in the whole class, that's still less than 1/4 of seniors who are on this track, and I guarantee that there are at least 150-200 kids out of those 400 who consider themselves STEM kids.

And I really can't even envision more than 30 kids being on that track, unless you're specifically talking about TJ or a magnet school, in which case, I will point you to the thread title of "normal for 9th grade math."

At our middling public middle school, about 20% of kids will take algebra in 7th which leads to calc in 11th.

This is what I did 25 years ago. Good grades on a 9-11th grade transcript is solid. I saved various goofy electives for grade 12 last semester plus took AP Stats.

In college continued my Chinese.Asian studies language as a major plus econ/math major.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:what an eye rolling thread.

my DD is coming to a non Big 3 private from DCPS middle school, and will be in Algebra I in 9th grade.

the only bummer of her math level for her is that she is very into science but the science classes are closely tied to math, so she may not be able to fit all of the science electives she wants to take before graduating.

Take geometry summer bt 8th and 9th grade. Have your school know that so you can get good schedule for 9th grade math and science.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we are wasting too much time arguing with one mom who wants to flex and start an irrelevant public vs private school debate.

My DD is transitioning from a MD public school to a private school in 9th. She is pretty math-oriented and does mathcounts, math club, etc. I know what a lot of her peers are up to at both private and public school, which appears to be similar.

There is the standard track:
8th grade algebra I
9th grade geometry
10th grade algebra II
11th grade precalc
12th grade calc

There is a honors/GT/advanced track:
8th grade geometry
9th grade algebra II
10th grade precalc
11th grade calc

And of course, there are always some kids who are ahead of this schedule. And there are some private schools which like to do algebra I as the normal 9th grade math class. My impression is that this is more common in Catholic schools which like to pride themselves on tradition and old fashioned rigor, but I could be wrong.

Schools and districts seem to vary on whether they have kids jump right into calc BC from precalc, or whether they make kids take calc AB before taking calc BC.

Our public school system does not offer multivariable and beyond, so these kids who finish calc before 12th grade would have to take additional classes at a community college for credit unless they are satisfied with AP stats as the only other option. Our private school does offer courses beyond calc bc and AP stats.

I do not think it really matters if you finish calc in your 11th or 12 grade year. This will not make you a better mathematician in college. In fact, some colleges strongly suggest you take their own calc classes instead of using AP credit to skip them. See this opinion piece on why its not good to rush through the math curriculum towards calculus:

https://phys.org/news/2015-11-calculus-bad-students-futures-stem.html

As the linked article shows, high school calculus is not "standard", but it is at the high end of "common".

Only 15% of students take AP calculus. Throw in some more who do IB or private non-AP, or public non-honors calculus (almost always a mistake).

Perhaps it should not be standard, but calc has become standard in our area for MC/UMC college-bound kids for the reasons mentioned in that article.

Quote from the article: "In a typical section of engineering calculus, up to 90% of my students have taken it in high school. While there are some positive aspects to retaking the course, there are downsides, the most notable of which is overconfidence and a student's misplaced certainty that he or she already knows the material.... So this is the crux of the problem: students lacking the requisite foundational abilities may not succeed because the college faculty member expects them to be at ease with these more basic ideas, freeing them to absorb and understand the new, more conceptual material. The rush to AP Calculus has instructed students in the techniques for solving large classes of standard calculus problems rather than prepare them for success in higher mathematics."

I'm not convinced by this. In high school, I studied calculus with a teacher with many years of experience. There was nightly homework. There was the opportunity to ask questions as we went along. At college, the instructor stood at the front of a lecture hall and lectured at us with no interaction for far less time per week. Tutorials were run by more senior grad students with no teaching experience. Maybe students with AP calc are a bit over confident initially , but heaven help the ones with no prior calculus knowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Skipped all the fighting so say I'm not sure what's "normal" but my DS just wrapped Geometry Honors in 9th grade.

Algebra II will be next year and he plans to take Pre-Calc/Trig the summer between 10/11 to knock that out of the way.

What's the plan for 11 and 12?

Calc AB (11)
Calc BC (12)

May double up one or both years as an elective (AP Macroeconomics and AP Statistics)

Skip calc AB and only do BC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we are wasting too much time arguing with one mom who wants to flex and start an irrelevant public vs private school debate.

My DD is transitioning from a MD public school to a private school in 9th. She is pretty math-oriented and does mathcounts, math club, etc. I know what a lot of her peers are up to at both private and public school, which appears to be similar.

There is the standard track:
8th grade algebra I
9th grade geometry
10th grade algebra II
11th grade precalc
12th grade calc

There is a honors/GT/advanced track:
8th grade geometry
9th grade algebra II
10th grade precalc
11th grade calc

And of course, there are always some kids who are ahead of this schedule. And there are some private schools which like to do algebra I as the normal 9th grade math class. My impression is that this is more common in Catholic schools which like to pride themselves on tradition and old fashioned rigor, but I could be wrong.

Schools and districts seem to vary on whether they have kids jump right into calc BC from precalc, or whether they make kids take calc AB before taking calc BC.

Our public school system does not offer multivariable and beyond, so these kids who finish calc before 12th grade would have to take additional classes at a community college for credit unless they are satisfied with AP stats as the only other option. Our private school does offer courses beyond calc bc and AP stats.

I do not think it really matters if you finish calc in your 11th or 12 grade year. This will not make you a better mathematician in college. In fact, some colleges strongly suggest you take their own calc classes instead of using AP credit to skip them. See this opinion piece on why its not good to rush through the math curriculum towards calculus:

https://phys.org/news/2015-11-calculus-bad-students-futures-stem.html

As the linked article shows, high school calculus is not "standard", but it is at the high end of "common".

Only 15% of students take AP calculus. Throw in some more who do IB or private non-AP, or public non-honors calculus (almost always a mistake).

Perhaps it should not be standard, but calc has become standard in our area for MC/UMC college-bound kids for the reasons mentioned in that article.

Quote from the article: "In a typical section of engineering calculus, up to 90% of my students have taken it in high school. While there are some positive aspects to retaking the course, there are downsides, the most notable of which is overconfidence and a student's misplaced certainty that he or she already knows the material.... So this is the crux of the problem: students lacking the requisite foundational abilities may not succeed because the college faculty member expects them to be at ease with these more basic ideas, freeing them to absorb and understand the new, more conceptual material. The rush to AP Calculus has instructed students in the techniques for solving large classes of standard calculus problems rather than prepare them for success in higher mathematics."

I'm not convinced by this. In high school, I studied calculus with a teacher with many years of experience. There was nightly homework. There was the opportunity to ask questions as we went along. At college, the instructor stood at the front of a lecture hall and lectured at us with no interaction for far less time per week. Tutorials were run by more senior grad students with no teaching experience. Maybe students with AP calc are a bit over confident initially , but heaven help the ones with no prior calculus knowledge.

High school teachers of upper level math classes are often phenomenal and want their students to succeed. Lots of discussion and it large classes like the core requirements.
Getting two exposures to diffy q, linear algebra, or multi variable calc is definitely helpful. Esp for a math or stem major.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we are wasting too much time arguing with one mom who wants to flex and start an irrelevant public vs private school debate.

My DD is transitioning from a MD public school to a private school in 9th. She is pretty math-oriented and does mathcounts, math club, etc. I know what a lot of her peers are up to at both private and public school, which appears to be similar.

There is the standard track:
8th grade algebra I
9th grade geometry
10th grade algebra II
11th grade precalc
12th grade calc

There is a honors/GT/advanced track:
8th grade geometry
9th grade algebra II
10th grade precalc
11th grade calc

And of course, there are always some kids who are ahead of this schedule. And there are some private schools which like to do algebra I as the normal 9th grade math class. My impression is that this is more common in Catholic schools which like to pride themselves on tradition and old fashioned rigor, but I could be wrong.

Schools and districts seem to vary on whether they have kids jump right into calc BC from precalc, or whether they make kids take calc AB before taking calc BC.

Our public school system does not offer multivariable and beyond, so these kids who finish calc before 12th grade would have to take additional classes at a community college for credit unless they are satisfied with AP stats as the only other option. Our private school does offer courses beyond calc bc and AP stats.

I do not think it really matters if you finish calc in your 11th or 12 grade year. This will not make you a better mathematician in college. In fact, some colleges strongly suggest you take their own calc classes instead of using AP credit to skip them. See this opinion piece on why its not good to rush through the math curriculum towards calculus:

https://phys.org/news/2015-11-calculus-bad-students-futures-stem.html

As the linked article shows, high school calculus is not "standard", but it is at the high end of "common".

Only 15% of students take AP calculus. Throw in some more who do IB or private non-AP, or public non-honors calculus (almost always a mistake).

Perhaps it should not be standard, but calc has become standard in our area for MC/UMC college-bound kids for the reasons mentioned in that article.

Quote from the article: "In a typical section of engineering calculus, up to 90% of my students have taken it in high school. While there are some positive aspects to retaking the course, there are downsides, the most notable of which is overconfidence and a student's misplaced certainty that he or she already knows the material.... So this is the crux of the problem: students lacking the requisite foundational abilities may not succeed because the college faculty member expects them to be at ease with these more basic ideas, freeing them to absorb and understand the new, more conceptual material. The rush to AP Calculus has instructed students in the techniques for solving large classes of standard calculus problems rather than prepare them for success in higher mathematics."

I'm not convinced by this. In high school, I studied calculus with a teacher with many years of experience. There was nightly homework. There was the opportunity to ask questions as we went along. At college, the instructor stood at the front of a lecture hall and lectured at us with no interaction for far less time per week. Tutorials were run by more senior grad students with no teaching experience. Maybe students with AP calc are a bit over confident initially , but heaven help the ones with no prior calculus knowledge.

I don't think the main point is that college calculus is better than high school calculus (though sometimes this is true). I think the main point was that in the push to take calculus earlier and earlier, many students are not getting their foundational math as solid as they ought to be. In other words, more time needs to be spent on a deeper dive of algebra, geo, and trig in order to really do well at higher level math. Some students are ready for calc by 11th grade, but most are not but are being rushed into it. Students who are gifted at math can also benefit from diving deeper into topics rather than rushing to the next course, but that's not how most schools do things. My kid once remarked that the prealgebra course she took from art of problem solving was more challenging than the algebra II course she took at her school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we are wasting too much time arguing with one mom who wants to flex and start an irrelevant public vs private school debate.

My DD is transitioning from a MD public school to a private school in 9th. She is pretty math-oriented and does mathcounts, math club, etc. I know what a lot of her peers are up to at both private and public school, which appears to be similar.

There is the standard track:
8th grade algebra I
9th grade geometry
10th grade algebra II
11th grade precalc
12th grade calc

There is a honors/GT/advanced track:
8th grade geometry
9th grade algebra II
10th grade precalc
11th grade calc

And of course, there are always some kids who are ahead of this schedule. And there are some private schools which like to do algebra I as the normal 9th grade math class. My impression is that this is more common in Catholic schools which like to pride themselves on tradition and old fashioned rigor, but I could be wrong.

Schools and districts seem to vary on whether they have kids jump right into calc BC from precalc, or whether they make kids take calc AB before taking calc BC.

Our public school system does not offer multivariable and beyond, so these kids who finish calc before 12th grade would have to take additional classes at a community college for credit unless they are satisfied with AP stats as the only other option. Our private school does offer courses beyond calc bc and AP stats.

I do not think it really matters if you finish calc in your 11th or 12 grade year. This will not make you a better mathematician in college. In fact, some colleges strongly suggest you take their own calc classes instead of using AP credit to skip them. See this opinion piece on why its not good to rush through the math curriculum towards calculus:

https://phys.org/news/2015-11-calculus-bad-students-futures-stem.html

As the linked article shows, high school calculus is not "standard", but it is at the high end of "common".

Only 15% of students take AP calculus. Throw in some more who do IB or private non-AP, or public non-honors calculus (almost always a mistake).

Perhaps it should not be standard, but calc has become standard in our area for MC/UMC college-bound kids for the reasons mentioned in that article.

Quote from the article: "In a typical section of engineering calculus, up to 90% of my students have taken it in high school. While there are some positive aspects to retaking the course, there are downsides, the most notable of which is overconfidence and a student's misplaced certainty that he or she already knows the material.... So this is the crux of the problem: students lacking the requisite foundational abilities may not succeed because the college faculty member expects them to be at ease with these more basic ideas, freeing them to absorb and understand the new, more conceptual material. The rush to AP Calculus has instructed students in the techniques for solving large classes of standard calculus problems rather than prepare them for success in higher mathematics."

I'm not convinced by this. In high school, I studied calculus with a teacher with many years of experience. There was nightly homework. There was the opportunity to ask questions as we went along. At college, the instructor stood at the front of a lecture hall and lectured at us with no interaction for far less time per week. Tutorials were run by more senior grad students with no teaching experience. Maybe students with AP calc are a bit over confident initially , but heaven help the ones with no prior calculus knowledge.

I don't think the main point is that college calculus is better than high school calculus (though sometimes this is true). I think the main point was that in the push to take calculus earlier and earlier, many students are not getting their foundational math as solid as they ought to be. In other words, more time needs to be spent on a deeper dive of algebra, geo, and trig in order to really do well at higher level math. Some students are ready for calc by 11th grade, but most are not but are being rushed into it. Students who are gifted at math can also benefit from diving deeper into topics rather than rushing to the next course, but that's not how most schools do things. My kid once remarked that the prealgebra course she took from art of problem solving was more challenging than the algebra II course she took at her school.

Saying dive deeper means nothing. Each course is a year in high school. Granted it's teacher specific but it's generally the same classwork. Most schools who do a later algebra track are slowing things down. Maybe they take more time to explain them but that's not necessarily deeper. The difference with AOPS is the teaching style and they actually use a book and curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is in the private school forum?…

My public school kid is completing Algebra II/Geometry in 7th grade. (Normal at her school is 8th grade.)

Glad I’m not paying $50k a year to be several years behind where she is now.

Algebra II/Geometry is *not* customary for 7th grade in public school! So, your child is going to take Calculus in 8th grade?

That person doesn’t seem to know what their kid is actually studying because Algebra II/Geometry is not a thing. The standard track is Alg I, Geo, Alg II, Precalc, Calc of some kind, regardless of which grade a kid starts that track in. Some schools flip Geometry and Algebra II. More math-oriented kids will track into Algebra II/Trig instead of just Algebra II. Typical level would have that in 10th, a good chunk of kids will have that in 9th. Maybe pp meant their kid was in Alg II/Trig in 7th? But if so, that’s about 3 years advanced over the base track that gets that in 10th. This is true for public as well. Yes, there are math geniuses taking classes at that level in MS and no, most private schools typically cannot advance to that level simply because they do not have enough students to be able to offer that amount of differentiation.

MCPS has over 1/3 of students doing geometry in 9th grade.

sWW and DCPS has 9th graders taking two math classes - geometry and algebra something.

The whole point is geometry is a standalone class, get it done before physics, don’t lose your algebra skills in the meantime.

These classes are a complete joke. My kid went from DCPS with straight As (frankly--above 98%) on to a Big3. Had to repeat Honors Algebra 2 at the Big3 school and struggled to get a low A--despite having taken the exact class before in DCPS. Classmates at another Big3 had the same experience.
All math is not the same. DCPS teaches a very, very shallow and cursory version of things. I know that the suburban magnets also delve deeply but we were shocked how little my kid was taught on this advanced track in DCPS.

I have another 2 kids in DCPS so we are not anti public school by any means but I wanted to share this experience.

Which school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we are wasting too much time arguing with one mom who wants to flex and start an irrelevant public vs private school debate.

My DD is transitioning from a MD public school to a private school in 9th. She is pretty math-oriented and does mathcounts, math club, etc. I know what a lot of her peers are up to at both private and public school, which appears to be similar.

There is the standard track:
8th grade algebra I
9th grade geometry
10th grade algebra II
11th grade precalc
12th grade calc

There is a honors/GT/advanced track:
8th grade geometry
9th grade algebra II
10th grade precalc
11th grade calc

And of course, there are always some kids who are ahead of this schedule. And there are some private schools which like to do algebra I as the normal 9th grade math class. My impression is that this is more common in Catholic schools which like to pride themselves on tradition and old fashioned rigor, but I could be wrong.

Schools and districts seem to vary on whether they have kids jump right into calc BC from precalc, or whether they make kids take calc AB before taking calc BC.

Our public school system does not offer multivariable and beyond, so these kids who finish calc before 12th grade would have to take additional classes at a community college for credit unless they are satisfied with AP stats as the only other option. Our private school does offer courses beyond calc bc and AP stats.

I do not think it really matters if you finish calc in your 11th or 12 grade year. This will not make you a better mathematician in college. In fact, some colleges strongly suggest you take their own calc classes instead of using AP credit to skip them. See this opinion piece on why its not good to rush through the math curriculum towards calculus:

https://phys.org/news/2015-11-calculus-bad-students-futures-stem.html

As the linked article shows, high school calculus is not "standard", but it is at the high end of "common".

Only 15% of students take AP calculus. Throw in some more who do IB or private non-AP, or public non-honors calculus (almost always a mistake).

Perhaps it should not be standard, but calc has become standard in our area for MC/UMC college-bound kids for the reasons mentioned in that article.

Quote from the article: "In a typical section of engineering calculus, up to 90% of my students have taken it in high school. While there are some positive aspects to retaking the course, there are downsides, the most notable of which is overconfidence and a student's misplaced certainty that he or she already knows the material.... So this is the crux of the problem: students lacking the requisite foundational abilities may not succeed because the college faculty member expects them to be at ease with these more basic ideas, freeing them to absorb and understand the new, more conceptual material. The rush to AP Calculus has instructed students in the techniques for solving large classes of standard calculus problems rather than prepare them for success in higher mathematics."

I'm not convinced by this. In high school, I studied calculus with a teacher with many years of experience. There was nightly homework. There was the opportunity to ask questions as we went along. At college, the instructor stood at the front of a lecture hall and lectured at us with no interaction for far less time per week. Tutorials were run by more senior grad students with no teaching experience. Maybe students with AP calc are a bit over confident initially , but heaven help the ones with no prior calculus knowledge.

I don't think the main point is that college calculus is better than high school calculus (though sometimes this is true). I think the main point was that in the push to take calculus earlier and earlier, many students are not getting their foundational math as solid as they ought to be. In other words, more time needs to be spent on a deeper dive of algebra, geo, and trig in order to really do well at higher level math. Some students are ready for calc by 11th grade, but most are not but are being rushed into it. Students who are gifted at math can also benefit from diving deeper into topics rather than rushing to the next course, but that's not how most schools do things. My kid once remarked that the prealgebra course she took from art of problem solving was more challenging than the algebra II course she took at her school.

Saying dive deeper means nothing. Each course is a year in high school. Granted it's teacher specific but it's generally the same classwork. Most schools who do a later algebra track are slowing things down. Maybe they take more time to explain them but that's not necessarily deeper. The difference with AOPS is the teaching style and they actually use a book and curriculum.

All I’m saying is that I think the classes should be deeper and more challenging for the advanced kids, instead of pushing them along to the next topic. Why you think that all year-long courses are equivalent? Two different schools can approach the same course very differently. I saw what my 8th grader has gotten in algebra I, geometry, and algebra II and I was not at all impressed. I’m pretty certain my math classes were less shallow and we were given harder problems back in the day. That’s just her school though and I don’t know about yours. My daughter’s school system is definitely just rushing kids through.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we are wasting too much time arguing with one mom who wants to flex and start an irrelevant public vs private school debate.

My DD is transitioning from a MD public school to a private school in 9th. She is pretty math-oriented and does mathcounts, math club, etc. I know what a lot of her peers are up to at both private and public school, which appears to be similar.

There is the standard track:
8th grade algebra I
9th grade geometry
10th grade algebra II
11th grade precalc
12th grade calc

There is a honors/GT/advanced track:
8th grade geometry
9th grade algebra II
10th grade precalc
11th grade calc

And of course, there are always some kids who are ahead of this schedule. And there are some private schools which like to do algebra I as the normal 9th grade math class. My impression is that this is more common in Catholic schools which like to pride themselves on tradition and old fashioned rigor, but I could be wrong.

Schools and districts seem to vary on whether they have kids jump right into calc BC from precalc, or whether they make kids take calc AB before taking calc BC.

Our public school system does not offer multivariable and beyond, so these kids who finish calc before 12th grade would have to take additional classes at a community college for credit unless they are satisfied with AP stats as the only other option. Our private school does offer courses beyond calc bc and AP stats.

I do not think it really matters if you finish calc in your 11th or 12 grade year. This will not make you a better mathematician in college. In fact, some colleges strongly suggest you take their own calc classes instead of using AP credit to skip them. See this opinion piece on why its not good to rush through the math curriculum towards calculus:

https://phys.org/news/2015-11-calculus-bad-students-futures-stem.html

As the linked article shows, high school calculus is not "standard", but it is at the high end of "common".

Only 15% of students take AP calculus. Throw in some more who do IB or private non-AP, or public non-honors calculus (almost always a mistake).

Perhaps it should not be standard, but calc has become standard in our area for MC/UMC college-bound kids for the reasons mentioned in that article.

Quote from the article: "In a typical section of engineering calculus, up to 90% of my students have taken it in high school. While there are some positive aspects to retaking the course, there are downsides, the most notable of which is overconfidence and a student's misplaced certainty that he or she already knows the material.... So this is the crux of the problem: students lacking the requisite foundational abilities may not succeed because the college faculty member expects them to be at ease with these more basic ideas, freeing them to absorb and understand the new, more conceptual material. The rush to AP Calculus has instructed students in the techniques for solving large classes of standard calculus problems rather than prepare them for success in higher mathematics."

I'm not convinced by this. In high school, I studied calculus with a teacher with many years of experience. There was nightly homework. There was the opportunity to ask questions as we went along. At college, the instructor stood at the front of a lecture hall and lectured at us with no interaction for far less time per week. Tutorials were run by more senior grad students with no teaching experience. Maybe students with AP calc are a bit over confident initially , but heaven help the ones with no prior calculus knowledge.

I don't think the main point is that college calculus is better than high school calculus (though sometimes this is true). I think the main point was that in the push to take calculus earlier and earlier, many students are not getting their foundational math as solid as they ought to be. In other words, more time needs to be spent on a deeper dive of algebra, geo, and trig in order to really do well at higher level math. Some students are ready for calc by 11th grade, but most are not but are being rushed into it. Students who are gifted at math can also benefit from diving deeper into topics rather than rushing to the next course, but that's not how most schools do things. My kid once remarked that the prealgebra course she took from art of problem solving was more challenging than the algebra II course she took at her school.

Saying dive deeper means nothing. Each course is a year in high school. Granted it's teacher specific but it's generally the same classwork. Most schools who do a later algebra track are slowing things down. Maybe they take more time to explain them but that's not necessarily deeper. The difference with AOPS is the teaching style and they actually use a book and curriculum.

All I’m saying is that I think the classes should be deeper and more challenging for the advanced kids, instead of pushing them along to the next topic. Why you think that all year-long courses are equivalent? Two different schools can approach the same course very differently. I saw what my 8th grader has gotten in algebra I, geometry, and algebra II and I was not at all impressed. I’m pretty certain my math classes were less shallow and we were given harder problems back in the day. That’s just her school though and I don’t know about yours. My daughter’s school system is definitely just rushing kids through.

The quality of the teaching and curriculum is very important but that's not necessarily rushing through things. For us, the lack of homework/repetition/problems and the curriculum (especially no textbooks) has been the biggest struggle. My child started in 6th. I think its too young but they wanted to do it and the curriculum wasn't challenging at all. I think 7th is a better year to start for a child who can handle it. We've had a huge mix of teachers both in public and private and the teacher quality and curriculum play a big part in it. Not everyone can teach math. We've supplemented with tutors and one parent who remembers it.

[Anonymous]

As someone who went to a top 5 engineering school, I think allowing a year or two of math acceleration, leading to calculus in 10th or 11th grade, is extremely beneficial. I am no genius but I managed to self-study and pass out of one class on my own and still have a good understanding of the topic. And then I was bored because there was only Stats to fill senior year! Would have loved Multivariable or linear algebra in HS even if it meant repeating them in college.

If acceleration comes at the expense of building a solid base then no, but I think it is possible to do both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:what an eye rolling thread.

my DD is coming to a non Big 3 private from DCPS middle school, and will be in Algebra I in 9th grade.

the only bummer of her math level for her is that she is very into science but the science classes are closely tied to math, so she may not be able to fit all of the science electives she wants to take before graduating.

Take geometry summer bt 8th and 9th grade. Have your school know that so you can get good schedule for 9th grade math and science.

Why not just take geometry in 9th?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:what an eye rolling thread.

my DD is coming to a non Big 3 private from DCPS middle school, and will be in Algebra I in 9th grade.

the only bummer of her math level for her is that she is very into science but the science classes are closely tied to math, so she may not be able to fit all of the science electives she wants to take before graduating.

Take geometry summer bt 8th and 9th grade. Have your school know that so you can get good schedule for 9th grade math and science.

Why not just take geometry in 9th?

your math transcript will be behind 40% of a school like J Reed, SWW, Whitman, Churchill, BCC, etc.
Those schools cover it in 8th grade or in 9th grade concurrent with the next algebra class.

same in Southlake, TX where we were from, near Dallas. 40% of the grade was poised to be done with AP Calculus Junior yr.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:what an eye rolling thread.

my DD is coming to a non Big 3 private from DCPS middle school, and will be in Algebra I in 9th grade.

the only bummer of her math level for her is that she is very into science but the science classes are closely tied to math, so she may not be able to fit all of the science electives she wants to take before graduating.

Take geometry summer bt 8th and 9th grade. Have your school know that so you can get good schedule for 9th grade math and science.

Why not just take geometry in 9th?

your math transcript will be behind 40% of a school like J Reed, SWW, Whitman, Churchill, BCC, etc.
Those schools cover it in 8th grade or in 9th grade concurrent with the next algebra class.

same in Southlake, TX where we were from, near Dallas. 40% of the grade was poised to be done with AP Calculus Junior yr.

I doubt these numbers.

At Churchill, for example, there are ~540 students per grade , and 120 in each of Calculus AB and BC. And 35 of them fail the AB test, and so probably should have stayed a year behind the classes they took.
(100 take AP Stats).

At *most* 40% take calculus at all before graduation, and that's only reachable if no one takes both AB and BC, which seems extremely unlikely if AB is taken junior year.

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/schools/high-schools/r-w/churchillhs/uploadedfiles/careercenter/class20of20202020final20profile.pdf


Carroll ISD tracks less top less than 10% on national normed tests into Algebra in 7th, and the rest of the top 30% to Algebra in 8th.

Also, their curriculum guide states that Calc AB is a prereq for BC, suggesting that most students taking Calculus aren't ready for the full strength course.

https://tx02219131.schoolwires.net/cms/lib/TX02219131/Centricity/Domain/39/22-23%20Student%20Data%20Matrix%20for%20Math%20Placement.pdf

And by the way 40% of people who take calculus fail the AP test, and only 20% earn a 5 score.

AP classes are over-enrolled across the board.