“ED is to locked down full payers”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Question from a hs freshman parent. Do schools ever award merit aid with ED or does that not happen?

Yes.

I know of several that do. However, the question is the amount lower for ED vs EA/RD and there is no real way to tell

But not @ Ivies, some top NESCACs, and some other top ranked schools. Their aid is mainly need-based. And if you need merit to make it work, then accept that it is not going to happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very few schools are completely need blind.

+1

Also, ED is not an option for those who need merit aid to attend, i.e. those who neither qualify for need-based aid nor can pay full freight.

Merit aid families often have the money to pay, at least for a state school but the parents choose to spend their money in other ways expecting help for college. It's pretty shocking ot see families making $250+ having such high expectations for aid. Schools should base it on need.

Agreed. If you have been making 250K for a few years, you likely had the means to save. The fact you chose to spend elsewhere is not someone else's issue. We started saving as soon as kids were born, as we knew we would never get any need based aid (2 engineers). We saved rather than taking fancy vacations, we made coffee at home rather than getting Starbucks....saving an extra $100-200/month easily with just the coffee and eating out. Put it to work for 15-18 years along with additional targeted savings and we are well positioned.

We're a donut hole family (about 200k hhi) and saved about 150 per kid until HHI jumped when the kids were in late ES/MS and we upped it to 1,000 per month per kid. That will fund less than 1 year of a SLAC and about 2 years of an instate school depending on the school. Unless we get merit, the kids will take out stafford loans because there is no way we can pay the difference in ECF and savings during the years when they are both in school

Since you did not save enough, then your kid/you will need loans and/or to find a school that offers more merit. However we were a family only making $150K when our first was born and living in SF (expensive!!!), and we managed to start saving ~$1000/month immediately. Any raises we got went at least 50% into the 529. We made sacrifices at that point to save as much as we could. If we hadn't we would be chasing the merit at this point.
Also, your kid can work part=time while in school and over summer and all breaks. They can bring in $7-8K each year. Yes, you might have some loans, but if you search for schools with merit you might not need much.

What wage are you estimating for the $7-8K/year and what kind of jobs?

VA min wage is now $11/hr (MD is $12.50 so kids would earn more) Any grocery store/target/fastfood/waitering/etc job will pay that or higher. Work 10 weeks at 40 hours is $4400 for the summer. Get a 2nd job if needed and/or work 8-10 hours during the school year for the rest. Work winter and spring break.

That's how I did it when I went to college, I rarely had time off. I earned $6-7K 30+ years ago. I worked 50-60 hour weeks during the summer (multiple jobs). I had no choice if I wanted to pay for school. We know how hard it is (my spouse worked just as hard and had more loans than me as they had no parental support at all for college) so we worked hard to save for our kids once they arrived.

So if you and your kid really want to attend a certain college they can contribute $7-8K. In my state a kid could easily earn $10K.

I'm the PP. FWIW, I was a full aid/loan kid and worked similarly to you in summers and during the school year. Many states do not have minimum wage in excess of the current federal wage of $7.25/hour. So yes, your suggestion works in states where students are able to pull down $11 and up, but less tenable in a lot of states.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thing you cannot do is compare FA offers.
But yes, you are right that it is not true the ED does not allow you to apply for FA and that admission should come with a guarantee of coverage for need.

This, and for kids who in particular want to compare merit offers, it is a non starter.

And kids who need merit aid and receive none with an ED acceptance are locked into a school they can't pay for, for which reason they cannot apply ED.

Two things. One, if it's a school that offers merit aid as a matter of routine, a coupon most people get, they will still do that during the ED round. What's more you should talk to them before submitting and have them give you a pre-read on merit aid. If it doesn't come through you have an out. Two, if it's a school that seldom gives merit, you don't need to compare offers, you already know that school costs more than you want to pay, doesn't matter whether the acceptance is ED or RD. So I don't get the grievance.

Now are there schools looking for more full pay families? Of course, and they do use ED to secure those applications. This isn't a scam, it's what those families are willing to pay, and why they apply early.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very few schools are completely need blind.

+1

Also, ED is not an option for those who need merit aid to attend, i.e. those who neither qualify for need-based aid nor can pay full freight.

Merit aid families often have the money to pay, at least for a state school but the parents choose to spend their money in other ways expecting help for college. It's pretty shocking ot see families making $250+ having such high expectations for aid. Schools should base it on need.

Agreed. If you have been making 250K for a few years, you likely had the means to save. The fact you chose to spend elsewhere is not someone else's issue. We started saving as soon as kids were born, as we knew we would never get any need based aid (2 engineers). We saved rather than taking fancy vacations, we made coffee at home rather than getting Starbucks....saving an extra $100-200/month easily with just the coffee and eating out. Put it to work for 15-18 years along with additional targeted savings and we are well positioned.

We're a donut hole family (about 200k hhi) and saved about 150 per kid until HHI jumped when the kids were in late ES/MS and we upped it to 1,000 per month per kid. That will fund less than 1 year of a SLAC and about 2 years of an instate school depending on the school. Unless we get merit, the kids will take out stafford loans because there is no way we can pay the difference in ECF and savings during the years when they are both in school

Since you did not save enough, then your kid/you will need loans and/or to find a school that offers more merit. However we were a family only making $150K when our first was born and living in SF (expensive!!!), and we managed to start saving ~$1000/month immediately. Any raises we got went at least 50% into the 529. We made sacrifices at that point to save as much as we could. If we hadn't we would be chasing the merit at this point.
Also, your kid can work part=time while in school and over summer and all breaks. They can bring in $7-8K each year. Yes, you might have some loans, but if you search for schools with merit you might not need much.

What wage are you estimating for the $7-8K/year and what kind of jobs?

VA min wage is now $11/hr (MD is $12.50 so kids would earn more) Any grocery store/target/fastfood/waitering/etc job will pay that or higher. Work 10 weeks at 40 hours is $4400 for the summer. Get a 2nd job if needed and/or work 8-10 hours during the school year for the rest. Work winter and spring break.

That's how I did it when I went to college, I rarely had time off. I earned $6-7K 30+ years ago. I worked 50-60 hour weeks during the summer (multiple jobs). I had no choice if I wanted to pay for school. We know how hard it is (my spouse worked just as hard and had more loans than me as they had no parental support at all for college) so we worked hard to save for our kids once they arrived.

So if you and your kid really want to attend a certain college they can contribute $7-8K. In my state a kid could easily earn $10K.

I'm the PP. FWIW, I was a full aid/loan kid and worked similarly to you in summers and during the school year. Many states do not have minimum wage in excess of the current federal wage of $7.25/hour. So yes, your suggestion works in states where students are able to pull down $11 and up, but less tenable in a lot of states.

Yes, I was poor and received significant aid. But for MD/DC/MD (the main audience for this forum), it is tenable. And in some states min wage much higher. But I'd argue everyone should aim to attend school without taking out major loans. And it's possible if you search out universities that give merit or attend state schools that you can afford. With kids working and parents helping a bit you can come out of a good 4 year university with less than $25K in loans. But people somehow feel they are entitled to the elite experience, rather than focusing on what is affordable. MY own average kid found schools that only cost $20K/year and we were not even searching for merit. They also found a T40 school that only cost $40K/year due to merit and a T120 that only cost ~$28K. Had we been searching we could have lower the costs even more, while still attending good schools. What you do at college is much more important than where you go. Graduating with minimal debt is much more important to your kid than where they went (no school is worth $80K if you don't already have the money saved, earmarked for that purpose).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thing you cannot do is compare FA offers.
But yes, you are right that it is not true the ED does not allow you to apply for FA and that admission should come with a guarantee of coverage for need.

This, and for kids who in particular want to compare merit offers, it is a non starter.

And kids who need merit aid and receive none with an ED acceptance are locked into a school they can't pay for, for which reason they cannot apply ED.

Two things. One, if it's a school that offers merit aid as a matter of routine, a coupon most people get, they will still do that during the ED round. What's more you should talk to them before submitting and have them give you a pre-read on merit aid. If it doesn't come through you have an out. Two, if it's a school that seldom gives merit, you don't need to compare offers, you already know that school costs more than you want to pay, doesn't matter whether the acceptance is ED or RD. So I don't get the grievance.

Now are there schools looking for more full pay families? Of course, and they do use ED to secure those applications. This isn't a scam, it's what those families are willing to pay, and why they apply early.

Most schools do not do this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The only reason there is a higher admit rate is because the school is taking the kids they absolutely want - the athletes, the desired URM, the key legacy/donors.

The average middle class/upper middle class white applicant does not actually stand a better chance in ED.

This is not true at most ED schools. In the book The Early Admissions Game it was found to give a an average boost of 150 SAT points to unhooked students - and yes they had the data.

https://books.google.com.gi/books?id=XTfSQ-DOaDcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

I don't understand this thread at all. Why not:

- Run the NPC
- If you can afford and it is your first choice, apply ED
- If the offer does not match the NPC. you have an easy exit from YOUR COMITTMENT.

Why is it not that simple?

All this talk of legal tests and being able to break your word without legal penalty to you (but certainly other penalty to your school and future graduates of it) is baffling, unnecessary, and quite frankly, immoral.

C’mon, we’re not talking about twenty years ago! This book’s copyright is from 2003, 2004.

You are making a claim that things have changed? You are going to have to back that up. But you can't because there is no evidence it has changed at all.

You don't even have a made up explanation, and you haven't read the book. Read the book, tell us what has changed that is different than the 500,000 applications the authors studied, and then maybe you'll be worth listening to.

[Anonymous]

Just be careful with the "can't afford it" ED withdrawal. Schools will generally let you do it without a ton of conflict. However as others have noted, if you truly "cannot afford" the financial aid offer your kid gets at a meets-full-need-no-loan school (like the places people complain about the ED vs. RD acceptance rates), your kid's offer goes away and you may not get a better one...

Example: Kid gets into ED school. Family says aid (all need based at this "top" school) won't work; they can't afford it, even though their demonstrated need is being met. Kid turns down acceptance, school says OK, goodbye and good luck. His RD acceptances/aid awards come in -- they were LESS AID than the ED aid award and doesn't get the little merit some of the top places dole out. Goes back to the ED school -- they say, sorry, if you couldn't afford it then, you can't afford it now, you no longer have an offer.

Heard of this happening more than once. If your kid gets ED to a full need school and you can't afford the offer, they need to apply to a whole bunch of other schools (state publics, high acceptance/high merit places, etc) pronto. The likelihood your need-based aid at other schools is going to better than the ED school is slim to none, and the ED school isn't going to let you sit around and compare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very few schools are completely need blind.

+1

Also, ED is not an option for those who need merit aid to attend, i.e. those who neither qualify for need-based aid nor can pay full freight.

Merit aid families often have the money to pay, at least for a state school but the parents choose to spend their money in other ways expecting help for college. It's pretty shocking ot see families making $250+ having such high expectations for aid. Schools should base it on need.

Agreed. If you have been making 250K for a few years, you likely had the means to save. The fact you chose to spend elsewhere is not someone else's issue. We started saving as soon as kids were born, as we knew we would never get any need based aid (2 engineers). We saved rather than taking fancy vacations, we made coffee at home rather than getting Starbucks....saving an extra $100-200/month easily with just the coffee and eating out. Put it to work for 15-18 years along with additional targeted savings and we are well positioned.

We're a donut hole family (about 200k hhi) and saved about 150 per kid until HHI jumped when the kids were in late ES/MS and we upped it to 1,000 per month per kid. That will fund less than 1 year of a SLAC and about 2 years of an instate school depending on the school. Unless we get merit, the kids will take out stafford loans because there is no way we can pay the difference in ECF and savings during the years when they are both in school

Since you did not save enough, then your kid/you will need loans and/or to find a school that offers more merit. However we were a family only making $150K when our first was born and living in SF (expensive!!!), and we managed to start saving ~$1000/month immediately. Any raises we got went at least 50% into the 529. We made sacrifices at that point to save as much as we could. If we hadn't we would be chasing the merit at this point.
Also, your kid can work part=time while in school and over summer and all breaks. They can bring in $7-8K each year. Yes, you might have some loans, but if you search for schools with merit you might not need much.

What wage are you estimating for the $7-8K/year and what kind of jobs?

VA min wage is now $11/hr (MD is $12.50 so kids would earn more) Any grocery store/target/fastfood/waitering/etc job will pay that or higher. Work 10 weeks at 40 hours is $4400 for the summer. Get a 2nd job if needed and/or work 8-10 hours during the school year for the rest. Work winter and spring break.

That's how I did it when I went to college, I rarely had time off. I earned $6-7K 30+ years ago. I worked 50-60 hour weeks during the summer (multiple jobs). I had no choice if I wanted to pay for school. We know how hard it is (my spouse worked just as hard and had more loans than me as they had no parental support at all for college) so we worked hard to save for our kids once they arrived.

So if you and your kid really want to attend a certain college they can contribute $7-8K. In my state a kid could easily earn $10K.

I'm the PP. FWIW, I was a full aid/loan kid and worked similarly to you in summers and during the school year. Many states do not have minimum wage in excess of the current federal wage of $7.25/hour. So yes, your suggestion works in states where students are able to pull down $11 and up, but less tenable in a lot of states.

Yes, I was poor and received significant aid. But for MD/DC/MD (the main audience for this forum), it is tenable. And in some states min wage much higher. But I'd argue everyone should aim to attend school without taking out major loans. And it's possible if you search out universities that give merit or attend state schools that you can afford. With kids working and parents helping a bit you can come out of a good 4 year university with less than $25K in loans. But people somehow feel they are entitled to the elite experience, rather than focusing on what is affordable. MY own average kid found schools that only cost $20K/year and we were not even searching for merit. They also found a T40 school that only cost $40K/year due to merit and a T120 that only cost ~$28K. Had we been searching we could have lower the costs even more, while still attending good schools. What you do at college is much more important than where you go. Graduating with minimal debt is much more important to your kid than where they went (no school is worth $80K if you don't already have the money saved, earmarked for that purpose).

Do you mind sharing which schools these are?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thing you cannot do is compare FA offers.
But yes, you are right that it is not true the ED does not allow you to apply for FA and that admission should come with a guarantee of coverage for need.

This, and for kids who in particular want to compare merit offers, it is a non starter.

And kids who need merit aid and receive none with an ED acceptance are locked into a school they can't pay for, for which reason they cannot apply ED.

Two things. One, if it's a school that offers merit aid as a matter of routine, a coupon most people get, they will still do that during the ED round. What's more you should talk to them before submitting and have them give you a pre-read on merit aid. If it doesn't come through you have an out. Two, if it's a school that seldom gives merit, you don't need to compare offers, you already know that school costs more than you want to pay, doesn't matter whether the acceptance is ED or RD. So I don't get the grievance.

Now are there schools looking for more full pay families? Of course, and they do use ED to secure those applications. This isn't a scam, it's what those families are willing to pay, and why they apply early.

Most schools do not do this.

But some do. Both my kids applied to a school (different schools) that asked us point blank what we thought we could afford to pay. Now you could see that as pressuring us to put down a big number, or just take it as an honest question. Both the family and the school have their number, may as well figure that out from the get go. This doesn’t prevent anyone from applying or avoiding ED, it just makes clear that ability to pay will be a factor.