MPSA - new school or move to north Arlington?

[Anonymous]

Or, you're not good at reading comprehension. I said shutting down options - Montessori, Immersion, ATS, CC, etc. You do that you have thousands of kids redistributed immediately to neighbor schools. Daydream all you want hater, you won't shut down one kind of option. I'm a fan of most of them, happy to see them in APS - so are others. Choice is rising as a public ed issue. Arlington is not about to shut down any of the options, especially those with LONG waitlists that help the system address other demands.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP and MPSA parent here: the proposal to move MPSA to NW is not from the Montessori community. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t want to stay at CC. There are a few neighborhood activists who want to move MPSA off site – see last school board meeting where one of them proposed moving to the NW.
Montessori haters just gonna hate, but one quick thing that may help others new to the issue: there are roughly 700 APS Montessori students now prek-8 across a half-dozen buildings. There were literally hundreds more applicants this year than open slots – go watch lottery videos for yourself. MPSA and Gunston program will grow more, as they have for years. Whoever said the demand stops after prek is wackadoo. As for shutting down options, that made me laugh. You want 1ks of kids suddenly flooding back into neighbor schools?

I have no particular views in shutting down MPSA, but your numbers don’t make sense. If there are roughly 700 students total in MPSA, how does shutting it down result in thousands of kids returning to neighborhood schools.

Also, over 100 of those students are pre-k who don’t need to be accommodated anywhere if there isn’t space to expand VPI. So really, we’re talking about a little less than 400 elementary students returning to neighborhood schools, and maybe 30 middle school students who aren’t zoned for Gunston to start with.

Montessori parents are not known for being particularly saavy with numbers.

[Anonymous]

I don't mind MPSA existing as a program, but I do think as an options program it needs to go where it's best served by the county overall. If you don't move it now, you are basically making a promise to spend $50 million on a new building for it later, and that seems crazy to me when we could spend $1-2 million now to move to open seats we already have somewhere else. That's the bottom line.

Yes, there will be a lot of angst over making those shuffles, but there always is, because boundary adjustments are terrible and we all know that.

We easily recoup that $1-2 million in savings at the CC site with an easier build.

Honestly, if MPSA is not in favor of a move, it kind of surprises me, because having a school with no greenspace next to a construction site for half my kid's elementary education doesn't sound that great to me. Plus the building is apparently in such poor shape APS thinks it needs to be torn down -- and certainly MPSA complained a lot about the building when they moved in.

Any school they would move to is probably at most 15 minutes from the current building, and in better shape, and with more outdoor space. So I think it makes sense.

APS is not known for making sensible decisions, however, so I'm not holding my breath. But if I had a kid there, I would for sure be wanting to move to a new school vs. being at a construction site.

[Anonymous]

Wow, cherrypick with alternative facts much? Are you truly not reading your own chart or do you mean to mislead? Everyone please go to that chart the PP linked. It shows 390 at MPSA k-5, plus 230 countywide prek-K. Gunston has run 30-85 (link: https://gunston.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/sites/17/2020/01/Gunston-Montessori-Presentation-updated-Jan2020.pdf), but let's take your 30 for arguments sake. I'll help you do the math: 400+230+30 = 660 as of May 6. What did I say? I said "roughly 700." Oooooh, you stung me!
But get this: the projection next school year for just prek-5 alone is 683, according to the Jan. 20, 2022, 10-year projections report. That does not count Gunston, and I'll break a little news here: the Gunston Montessori cohort could be its largest. Ever. Yet you said "The increase in applicants is pre-K." - That is simply not true. Patently false. You're not even remotely connected to the program are you? Clearly you aren't because if you were you would know the ultimate number of APS Montessori (and every APS choice school) is capped by capacity and staff...not demand. Again, go watch the lottery videos, add up the no-spot waitlisted, and then for fun figure out how many extra classrooms they could fill if there was space and teachers. Instead you throw out this strawman argument that not every APS Montessori student returns the next year...as if it mattered?! I'll help you do the logic: If the demand is there to add classrooms regardless, the return rate does not matter. (And if you're going to apply return-rate as some kind of barometer - which is weird - then get ready for backlash from Immersion, which loses students year-to-year, especially around grade 2 as non-native houses find the language step-up too hard.)
Everybody be clear, this person is gaslighting - the growth is not significant enough...the return-rate isn't perfectly 100%...totally ignore the waitlist demand...never acknowledge the artificial cap for every choice school based on capacity. Just say you hate Montessori or programs, we get it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP and MPSA parent here: the proposal to move MPSA to NW is not from the Montessori community. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t want to stay at CC. There are a few neighborhood activists who want to move MPSA off site – see last school board meeting where one of them proposed moving to the NW.
Montessori haters just gonna hate, but one quick thing that may help others new to the issue: there are roughly 700 APS Montessori students now prek-8 across a half-dozen buildings. There were literally hundreds more applicants this year than open slots – go watch lottery videos for yourself. MPSA and Gunston program will grow more, as they have for years. Whoever said the demand stops after prek is wackadoo. As for shutting down options, that made me laugh. You want 1ks of kids suddenly flooding back into neighbor schools?

Well, the neighborhood schools aren't so overcrowded now, so why not? And it's not thousands, or even one thousand - whatever you meant by "1ks."

Montessori always presents stats to distort people's initial reactions to their favor. The increase in applicants is pre-K. There is high demand for preschool in general. You don't have hundreds more clamoring for middle school. Montessori likes to believe there's huge demand through high school. There isn't. So, tell us the % of preK kids who apply to continue? And tell us the % of 5th graders who continue into middle school. How many people are applying somewhere in the middle?

https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/U-MEM_281-Membership-Summary-All.pdf

"..700 APS Montessori students now prek-8 across a half-dozen buildings." Let's remind everyone that about 90(?) of those are the total # of middle schoolers and they are all in ONE building.

Total preK = 230. 103 are at the MPSA building at the CC site. K-5 enrollment at the MPSA building is 390. Look at that: 103 in one grade level (preK) and 390 across 6 grade levels (K-5).
PreK NOT at the MPSA site (230-103) = 127. That's 127 students in 6 different buildings.
70 of those are at Discovery (30) and Jamestown (40).
Smallest prek is 8 - EIGHT - at Carlin Springs.

So, it's 127 students across 6 buildings; 493 at one building; and about 90 (? enrollment not broken out by program on this document) at another building.
Compare Montessori's 230 preschoolers to 474 VPI preschoolers across 16 schools, more evenly distributed with the outlier of Hoffman Boston with 58. Montessori's supposed to serve under-privileged kids. What % of the 230 Montessori preschoolers are underprivileged - and not Arlington Montessori's definition of low-income.... eligible for FRL low-income?

I don't see MPSA and Gunston program enrollment having significantly grown over the years. Grew some this year to 493 at MPSA. Last year 455. Year before that 456. Don't know what it was when combined with Drew.

[Anonymous]

Why do we need Montessori again? Just trying to figure it out, since some of the PPs think I should put my kid on a bus every day to drive past the school we live next to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow, cherrypick with alternative facts much? Are you truly not reading your own chart or do you mean to mislead? Everyone please go to that chart the PP linked. It shows 390 at MPSA k-5, plus 230 countywide prek-K. Gunston has run 30-85 (link: https://gunston.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/sites/17/2020/01/Gunston-Montessori-Presentation-updated-Jan2020.pdf), but let's take your 30 for arguments sake. I'll help you do the math: 400+230+30 = 660 as of May 6. What did I say? I said "roughly 700." Oooooh, you stung me!
But get this: the projection next school year for just prek-5 alone is 683, according to the Jan. 20, 2022, 10-year projections report. That does not count Gunston, and I'll break a little news here: the Gunston Montessori cohort could be its largest. Ever. Yet you said "The increase in applicants is pre-K." - That is simply not true. Patently false. You're not even remotely connected to the program are you? Clearly you aren't because if you were you would know the ultimate number of APS Montessori (and every APS choice school) is capped by capacity and staff...not demand. Again, go watch the lottery videos, add up the no-spot waitlisted, and then for fun figure out how many extra classrooms they could fill if there was space and teachers. Instead you throw out this strawman argument that not every APS Montessori student returns the next year...as if it mattered?! I'll help you do the logic: If the demand is there to add classrooms regardless, the return rate does not matter. (And if you're going to apply return-rate as some kind of barometer - which is weird - then get ready for backlash from Immersion, which loses students year-to-year, especially around grade 2 as non-native houses find the language step-up too hard.)
Everybody be clear, this person is gaslighting - the growth is not significant enough...the return-rate isn't perfectly 100%...totally ignore the waitlist demand...never acknowledge the artificial cap for every choice school based on capacity. Just say you hate Montessori or programs, we get it.


You seem to be conflating two different posters because I gave you 90 at Gunston, not 30. NEvertheless, I didn't dispute your "roughly 700." I was pointing out how you (and the Montessori contingency generally does) are the one gaslighting by painting a distorted picture by saying roughly 700 spread across 6 schools, which makes it sound like it's everywhere. You can't transfer into the program midway without prior Montessori experience; so you're not getting a lot of new enrollees each year beyond preK and K. If there are 230 preschoolers, and anywhere from 47 to 85 in a single grade level, the majority of preschoolers are not continuing in the program. And yes, that is partly limited by capacity. That's not about year-to-year return rate; it's about milestone-year return rates. But you still haven't shared how many people apply to continue from PreK and K into first grade; or from 5th to 6th. I don't care whether every student returns. The point is, you're trying to depict a scenario of hundreds and hundreds of parents clamoring to join Montessori in general every year. Montessori always refers to a huge waitlist; but I've never seen or heard exact numbers. And I'm not going to waste my time watching lottery videos and counting people. And you need to count those "waitlisted" by individual grade level (grouped in the Montessori fashion) to see how many classrooms they would fill - don't give me a total # and claim there would be enough to fill a second K-5 program tomorrow.

I don't hate Montessori programs. But I don't believe it's critical for APS to have one because I don't think it's anything special academically. Montessori kids and their parents just think they're very special. The model isn't how Maria Montessori originally designed it and it costs APS more money for special teacher training, assistants in every classroom, etc. I don't think the academic results/payoff is worth the cost. I also don't believe the lottery fuss and transportation costs for ATS are worth retaining it as an option program because all schools should have the ATS expectations and standards and approaches so all students benefit, not just those who will be successful no matter where they go and happen to get in. I'm not an immersion person; but the immersion program at least genuinely provides a different instructional approach and benefit for many students. However, if APS ever drops the 50/50 Engl/Spanish-speaking model, it will lose my support. I believe it's more beneficial for ELL students than for native English speaking students and that enrollment mix will only be dropped because they're not getting the native Spanish speaking students, therefore it will be serving primarily affluent native English speakers who don't need an alternative instructional approach to succeed to their academic potential.

As far as you referring to all option schools being closed and therefore the thousands of students....the discussion was about the Montessori program - not about ending all option programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why do we need Montessori again? Just trying to figure it out, since some of the PPs think I should put my kid on a bus every day to drive past the school we live next to.

We don't.
But I also don't care if people have to drive by one school to attend another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Or, you're not good at reading comprehension. I said shutting down options - Montessori, Immersion, ATS, CC, etc. You do that you have thousands of kids redistributed immediately to neighbor schools. Daydream all you want hater, you won't shut down one kind of option. I'm a fan of most of them, happy to see them in APS - so are others. Choice is rising as a public ed issue. Arlington is not about to shut down any of the options, especially those with LONG waitlists that help the system address other demands.

Oh, you’re one of those.

After pre-k, the Montessori waitlist isn’t all that impressive.

[Anonymous]

Not impressive...like your response. That's it? You may not be impressed, but interested Arlington families have been for 50 years, growing it from one classroom to the current prek-8 track - and with enough demand to open several more classrooms all the way into middle school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Or, you're not good at reading comprehension. I said shutting down options - Montessori, Immersion, ATS, CC, etc. You do that you have thousands of kids redistributed immediately to neighbor schools. Daydream all you want hater, you won't shut down one kind of option. I'm a fan of most of them, happy to see them in APS - so are others. Choice is rising as a public ed issue. Arlington is not about to shut down any of the options, especially those with LONG waitlists that help the system address other demands.

Oh, you’re one of those.

After pre-k, the Montessori waitlist isn’t all that impressive.

[Anonymous]

You are patently false on these claims:
“You can't transfer into the program midway without prior Montessori experience.”
That is false, there is absolutely no requirement to have Montessori experience before joining at any age. There IS a test-in for Immersion, it is right there in policy. Why? I don’t know, maybe they think their special even though there is no pedagogy – unlike Montessori – but they are allowed to screen out for lack of knowledge. APS Montessori does not do that at all.
“It costs APS more money for special teacher training, assistants in every classroom.”
That is false, APS does not pay one penny additional for Montessori teachers to be trained or certified. That is completely born on their own dime. In fact, there is not even an official policy that APS Montessori teachers have to be Montessori trained, it is just a goal that administrators strive for on their own. You also allege that APS pays more for assistants, that is false. For starters, every class with kinders must have a second adult anyway, per state. There should be assistants in every class above that level but there is not. Regardless, the so-called cost does not appear in per-pupil comparisons. The cost of a student at MPSA falls in the middle of Arlington elementaries and below the amount several neighborhood schools such as Jamestown. How so? One reason is that there are cost savings in the fact that Montessori does not buy new textbooks each year, does not need new technology with every fad, and that materials (e.g., counting beads) last a LONG time. If you assert otherwise, prove it – show your work, otherwise you’re just throwing out an old discredited assumption, kind of like how people think they get the flu from the flu vaccine.
“The immersion program at least genuinely provides a different instructional approach and benefit for many students.”
Agree that Immersion is different from a traditional classroom and probably has benefited many students. But Montessori is a proven, certified, studied, documented pedagogy, and it too has benefitted many students. Interestingly, you admit your support for Immersion is based on its potential to raise ELL students – which means you support it for policy reasons, not pedagogical. So be it. But I will point out that the established policy for primary APS Montessori strives further: two-thirds of the available slots are for students whose families meet income eligibility guidelines. To this effort I am happy to totally agree.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, cherrypick with alternative facts much? Are you truly not reading your own chart or do you mean to mislead? Everyone please go to that chart the PP linked. It shows 390 at MPSA k-5, plus 230 countywide prek-K. Gunston has run 30-85 (link: https://gunston.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/sites/17/2020/01/Gunston-Montessori-Presentation-updated-Jan2020.pdf), but let's take your 30 for arguments sake. I'll help you do the math: 400+230+30 = 660 as of May 6. What did I say? I said "roughly 700." Oooooh, you stung me!
But get this: the projection next school year for just prek-5 alone is 683, according to the Jan. 20, 2022, 10-year projections report. That does not count Gunston, and I'll break a little news here: the Gunston Montessori cohort could be its largest. Ever. Yet you said "The increase in applicants is pre-K." - That is simply not true. Patently false. You're not even remotely connected to the program are you? Clearly you aren't because if you were you would know the ultimate number of APS Montessori (and every APS choice school) is capped by capacity and staff...not demand. Again, go watch the lottery videos, add up the no-spot waitlisted, and then for fun figure out how many extra classrooms they could fill if there was space and teachers. Instead you throw out this strawman argument that not every APS Montessori student returns the next year...as if it mattered?! I'll help you do the logic: If the demand is there to add classrooms regardless, the return rate does not matter. (And if you're going to apply return-rate as some kind of barometer - which is weird - then get ready for backlash from Immersion, which loses students year-to-year, especially around grade 2 as non-native houses find the language step-up too hard.)
Everybody be clear, this person is gaslighting - the growth is not significant enough...the return-rate isn't perfectly 100%...totally ignore the waitlist demand...never acknowledge the artificial cap for every choice school based on capacity. Just say you hate Montessori or programs, we get it.


You seem to be conflating two different posters because I gave you 90 at Gunston, not 30. NEvertheless, I didn't dispute your "roughly 700." I was pointing out how you (and the Montessori contingency generally does) are the one gaslighting by painting a distorted picture by saying roughly 700 spread across 6 schools, which makes it sound like it's everywhere. You can't transfer into the program midway without prior Montessori experience; so you're not getting a lot of new enrollees each year beyond preK and K. If there are 230 preschoolers, and anywhere from 47 to 85 in a single grade level, the majority of preschoolers are not continuing in the program. And yes, that is partly limited by capacity. That's not about year-to-year return rate; it's about milestone-year return rates. But you still haven't shared how many people apply to continue from PreK and K into first grade; or from 5th to 6th. I don't care whether every student returns. The point is, you're trying to depict a scenario of hundreds and hundreds of parents clamoring to join Montessori in general every year. Montessori always refers to a huge waitlist; but I've never seen or heard exact numbers. And I'm not going to waste my time watching lottery videos and counting people. And you need to count those "waitlisted" by individual grade level (grouped in the Montessori fashion) to see how many classrooms they would fill - don't give me a total # and claim there would be enough to fill a second K-5 program tomorrow.

I don't hate Montessori programs. But I don't believe it's critical for APS to have one because I don't think it's anything special academically. Montessori kids and their parents just think they're very special. The model isn't how Maria Montessori originally designed it and it costs APS more money for special teacher training, assistants in every classroom, etc. I don't think the academic results/payoff is worth the cost. I also don't believe the lottery fuss and transportation costs for ATS are worth retaining it as an option program because all schools should have the ATS expectations and standards and approaches so all students benefit, not just those who will be successful no matter where they go and happen to get in. I'm not an immersion person; but the immersion program at least genuinely provides a different instructional approach and benefit for many students. However, if APS ever drops the 50/50 Engl/Spanish-speaking model, it will lose my support. I believe it's more beneficial for ELL students than for native English speaking students and that enrollment mix will only be dropped because they're not getting the native Spanish speaking students, therefore it will be serving primarily affluent native English speakers who don't need an alternative instructional approach to succeed to their academic potential.

As far as you referring to all option schools being closed and therefore the thousands of students....the discussion was about the Montessori program - not about ending all option programs.

[Anonymous]

Pp, you really need to learn how to post. Your comments are unreadable.