PARCC... is this test still relevant at all???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"The mainstream media are filled with warnings about “learning loss” and how we must measure it and why students should go to summer school to make up for what they have “lost.” If we can’t quantify it, they say, how can we know which students are behind? This is silly. There was no “pre-test,” so there can’t be a “post-test.” A test that students take this spring can’t possibly demonstrate “learning loss,” since they can’t be compared to anything else. If you want to know where students are in their learning, ask their teacher."

-Diane Ravitch

I don't even know what this mean. She really has drunk the Kool-Aid.

Take DC, for example. DC used the PARCC pre-pandemic and now is using the PARCC post-pandemic. So, yes, they can use that to help quantify learning loss.

My old DCPS school school that has been rapidly gentrifying used to sell their “growth” by showing the improvement YoY of a certain grade level, for example the 2017 5th grade scores v the 2015 5th grade scores. These aren’t a real comparison and considering student bodies change, and school demos differ, I’m not really sure what you are hoping to glean from this

You can also track individual YoY growth, which DC already does. It’s part of the OSSE’s star ratings growth measure. It will not be perfect, because kids previously took iReady in 1st/2nd and will now take PARCC for 3rd/4th, but you can compare National percentile ratings and the schools grade-to-grade picture and you can absolutely get a sense of learning loss. A much better sense than no testing. My school was horrified by BoY results and now by MOY results on iReady and were surprised that the latter weren’t better and are reevaluating how they teach some things as a result; testing isn’t everything, but it absolutely provides useful information. I also think if the scores are as low as my school’s seems to predict (non-T1 DCPS for context), the Mayor will have a hard time not providing still more top up funding for the year after next too. Forcing education to be a priority for the Mayor is useful too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"The mainstream media are filled with warnings about “learning loss” and how we must measure it and why students should go to summer school to make up for what they have “lost.” If we can’t quantify it, they say, how can we know which students are behind? This is silly. There was no “pre-test,” so there can’t be a “post-test.” A test that students take this spring can’t possibly demonstrate “learning loss,” since they can’t be compared to anything else. If you want to know where students are in their learning, ask their teacher."

-Diane Ravitch

I don't even know what this mean. She really has drunk the Kool-Aid.

Take DC, for example. DC used the PARCC pre-pandemic and now is using the PARCC post-pandemic. So, yes, they can use that to help quantify learning loss.

My old DCPS school school that has been rapidly gentrifying used to sell their “growth” by showing the improvement YoY of a certain grade level, for example the 2017 5th grade scores v the 2015 5th grade scores. These aren’t a real comparison and considering student bodies change, and school demos differ, I’m not really sure what you are hoping to glean from this

You can also track individual YoY growth, which DC already does. It’s part of the OSSE’s star ratings growth measure. It will not be perfect, because kids previously took iReady in 1st/2nd and will now take PARCC for 3rd/4th, but you can compare National percentile ratings and the schools grade-to-grade picture and you can absolutely get a sense of learning loss. A much better sense than no testing. My school was horrified by BoY results and now by MOY results on iReady and were surprised that the latter weren’t better and are reevaluating how they teach some things as a result; testing isn’t everything, but it absolutely provides useful information. I also think if the scores are as low as my school’s seems to predict (non-T1 DCPS for context), the Mayor will have a hard time not providing still more top up funding for the year after next too. Forcing education to be a priority for the Mayor is useful too.

I agree with your last statements. I hope the mayor continues to send more money to understaffed schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We can all have our views, but for those parents who want to opt out, why?

I just don't get your holier than thou approach as if you know better. You are all pretending to be experts on standardized tests. You are all experts on testing procedures. Go ahead and opt out, I hope your teachers also opt out of anything above and beyond for your kids. When you opt out, you are hurting many people, your school, your teachers, your kid's friends, your neighborhood, DCPS, and so on. And the final nail could be your own child. You think you are doing good but it could even be detrimental.

Live and let live, right?

I dont plan to opt but if I did Im not sure how it hurts the school or my kids friends. My kid is almost two grades ahead in her current classroom and I know the eacher and school really really want to make sure kid takes the test the school scores. But its not like school has ever gone above and beyond for my kid, its always "smart kids will be fine anywhere"

Just let you kid take the PARCC. It is so low stakes. I'm encouraging and supporting my children to show what they know. I don't care if you think it is a stupid test. I don't care if it is useless. It's an experience that my kids will have. I'm raising my children to shine and be the best they can be and not to look for excuses or opting out. It's just another assessment, just like i-Ready, RI, ANet, and so on.

[Anonymous]

Wow, what a persuasive, well-reasoned argument. Can’t wait for my kids to take PARCC 2022!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You may want to check out the 6 page thread on this very topic: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1032577.page

And, it's relevant because DC doesn't have another test ready to go at the moment and federal law mandates accountability testing of some kind.

This. Kids need some type of standardized test to see how they are doing in general and compared to peers. DC happens to pick PARCC which is not the best

And it also makes it difficult to norm against peer performance when no other states take it! But Bill Gates and Pearson Education are living pretty high on the hog from it. Follow the money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You may want to check out the 6 page thread on this very topic: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1032577.page

And, it's relevant because DC doesn't have another test ready to go at the moment and federal law mandates accountability testing of some kind.

This. Kids need some type of standardized test to see how they are doing in general and compared to peers. DC happens to pick PARCC which is not the best

And it also makes it difficult to norm against peer performance when no other states take it! But Bill Gates and Pearson Education are living pretty high on the hog from it. Follow the money.

If kids need a test to tell us how they're doing in general and compared to peers then why do the highest-performing school systems in the world avoid standardized tests for elementary and middle school-age kids, including Singapore, Finland, the city of Shang'hai and the Netherlands? What we're doing here in the US is BETTER than what these countries are doing?

The reality is that there are no shortcuts to improving educational outcomes for poor kids. If a society won't provide optimal inputs, not much point in obsessively, and expensively, measuring sub-optimal outputs every year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We can all have our views, but for those parents who want to opt out, why?

I just don't get your holier than thou approach as if you know better. You are all pretending to be experts on standardized tests. You are all experts on testing procedures. Go ahead and opt out, I hope your teachers also opt out of anything above and beyond for your kids. When you opt out, you are hurting many people, your school, your teachers, your kid's friends, your neighborhood, DCPS, and so on. And the final nail could be your own child. You think you are doing good but it could even be detrimental.

Live and let live, right?

I dont plan to opt but if I did Im not sure how it hurts the school or my kids friends. My kid is almost two grades ahead in her current classroom and I know the eacher and school really really want to make sure kid takes the test the school scores. But its not like school has ever gone above and beyond for my kid, its always "smart kids will be fine anywhere"

Just let you kid take the PARCC. It is so low stakes. I'm encouraging and supporting my children to show what they know. I don't care if you think it is a stupid test. I don't care if it is useless. It's an experience that my kids will have. I'm raising my children to shine and be the best they can be and not to look for excuses or opting out. It's just another assessment, just like i-Ready, RI, ANet, and so on.

i - Ready, RI, ANET all take 60 - 90 minutes (maybe 2 hours). PARCC is a two week disruption to schedules

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We can all have our views, but for those parents who want to opt out, why?

I just don't get your holier than thou approach as if you know better. You are all pretending to be experts on standardized tests. You are all experts on testing procedures. Go ahead and opt out, I hope your teachers also opt out of anything above and beyond for your kids. When you opt out, you are hurting many people, your school, your teachers, your kid's friends, your neighborhood, DCPS, and so on. And the final nail could be your own child. You think you are doing good but it could even be detrimental.

Live and let live, right?

I dont plan to opt but if I did Im not sure how it hurts the school or my kids friends. My kid is almost two grades ahead in her current classroom and I know the eacher and school really really want to make sure kid takes the test the school scores. But its not like school has ever gone above and beyond for my kid, its always "smart kids will be fine anywhere"

Just let you kid take the PARCC. It is so low stakes. I'm encouraging and supporting my children to show what they know. I don't care if you think it is a stupid test. I don't care if it is useless. It's an experience that my kids will have. I'm raising my children to shine and be the best they can be and not to look for excuses or opting out. It's just another assessment, just like i-Ready, RI, ANet, and so on.

i - Ready, RI, ANET all take 60 - 90 minutes (maybe 2 hours). PARCC is a two week disruption to schedules

PARCC is generally over 3 days for a particular grade: ELA, math, and SCI, and take a total of fewer than 8 hours. Once a year.

Tests like ANet are usually administered several times a year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You may want to check out the 6 page thread on this very topic: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1032577.page

And, it's relevant because DC doesn't have another test ready to go at the moment and federal law mandates accountability testing of some kind.

This. Kids need some type of standardized test to see how they are doing in general and compared to peers. DC happens to pick PARCC which is not the best

And it also makes it difficult to norm against peer performance when no other states take it! But Bill Gates and Pearson Education are living pretty high on the hog from it. Follow the money.

If kids need a test to tell us how they're doing in general and compared to peers then why do the highest-performing school systems in the world avoid standardized tests for elementary and middle school-age kids, including Singapore, Finland, the city of Shang'hai and the Netherlands? What we're doing here in the US is BETTER than what these countries are doing?

The reality is that there are no shortcuts to improving educational outcomes for poor kids. If a society won't provide optimal inputs, not much point in obsessively, and expensively, measuring sub-optimal outputs every year.

1) You are comparing some of the best school systems in the world to DCPS, one of the worst performing school systems in the US. You realize that most DCPS kids are performing below grade level and some are illiterate?

2) Your information is wrong. Take Singapore, for example. Schools are ranked based on how kids do on standardized tests. In fact, all kids in Singapore take the PSLE at the end of grade 6, which is held over 4 days and determines where they will go to middle school. Want another example? China invented standardized tests over 2000 years ago, so I don’t think that your Shanghai example makes sense. In fact, middle school students in China take the Zhongkao standardized test to determine whether they go on to high school and where they go.

3) One reason we know that US middle school education is worse than Singapore, Finland, China, and the Netherlands is because OECD has kids take a standardized test. That test shows that the US is worse than all those countries in literacy, numeracy, and science. Moreover, in the US, DC ranks among the lowest in the country (along with Alabama, Mississippi, and West Virginia) in dropout rate, math scores, reading scores, median SAT scores, etc.

And how are we able to compare DC to states in the US and other countries? Yes, standardized tests. And how can we establish a baseline to try to improve DCPS and see which schools are excelling and which are not? Yes, standardized tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What's wrong with the PARCC test? My kids are young, so I don't know much about standardized testing.

PP this 2019 podcast gives some background on standardized testing in the US.

America's Education Problem: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/podcasts/the-daily/education.html?action=click&module=Briefings&pgtype=Homepage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You may want to check out the 6 page thread on this very topic: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1032577.page

And, it's relevant because DC doesn't have another test ready to go at the moment and federal law mandates accountability testing of some kind.

This. Kids need some type of standardized test to see how they are doing in general and compared to peers. DC happens to pick PARCC which is not the best

And it also makes it difficult to norm against peer performance when no other states take it! But Bill Gates and Pearson Education are living pretty high on the hog from it. Follow the money.

If kids need a test to tell us how they're doing in general and compared to peers then why do the highest-performing school systems in the world avoid standardized tests for elementary and middle school-age kids, including Singapore, Finland, the city of Shang'hai and the Netherlands? What we're doing here in the US is BETTER than what these countries are doing?

The reality is that there are no shortcuts to improving educational outcomes for poor kids. If a society won't provide optimal inputs, not much point in obsessively, and expensively, measuring sub-optimal outputs every year.

1) You are comparing some of the best school systems in the world to DCPS, one of the worst performing school systems in the US. You realize that most DCPS kids are performing below grade level and some are illiterate?

2) Your information is wrong. Take Singapore, for example. Schools are ranked based on how kids do on standardized tests. In fact, all kids in Singapore take the PSLE at the end of grade 6, which is held over 4 days and determines where they will go to middle school. Want another example? China invented standardized tests over 2000 years ago, so I don’t think that your Shanghai example makes sense. In fact, middle school students in China take the Zhongkao standardized test to determine whether they go on to high school and where they go.

3) One reason we know that US middle school education is worse than Singapore, Finland, China, and the Netherlands is because OECD has kids take a standardized test. That test shows that the US is worse than all those countries in literacy, numeracy, and science. Moreover, in the US, DC ranks among the lowest in the country (along with Alabama, Mississippi, and West Virginia) in dropout rate, math scores, reading scores, median SAT scores, etc.

And how are we able to compare DC to states in the US and other countries? Yes, standardized tests. And how can we establish a baseline to try to improve DCPS and see which schools are excelling and which are not? Yes, standardized tests.

Great post +1 million

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We can all have our views, but for those parents who want to opt out, why?

I just don't get your holier than thou approach as if you know better. You are all pretending to be experts on standardized tests. You are all experts on testing procedures. Go ahead and opt out, I hope your teachers also opt out of anything above and beyond for your kids. When you opt out, you are hurting many people, your school, your teachers, your kid's friends, your neighborhood, DCPS, and so on. And the final nail could be your own child. You think you are doing good but it could even be detrimental.

Live and let live, right?

I dont plan to opt but if I did Im not sure how it hurts the school or my kids friends. My kid is almost two grades ahead in her current classroom and I know the eacher and school really really want to make sure kid takes the test the school scores. But its not like school has ever gone above and beyond for my kid, its always "smart kids will be fine anywhere"

Just let you kid take the PARCC. It is so low stakes. I'm encouraging and supporting my children to show what they know. I don't care if you think it is a stupid test. I don't care if it is useless. It's an experience that my kids will have. I'm raising my children to shine and be the best they can be and not to look for excuses or opting out. It's just another assessment, just like i-Ready, RI, ANet, and so on.

i - Ready, RI, ANET all take 60 - 90 minutes (maybe 2 hours). PARCC is a two week disruption to schedules

PARCC is generally over 3 days for a particular grade: ELA, math, and SCI, and take a total of fewer than 8 hours. Once a year.

Tests like ANet are usually administered several times a year.

2 1/2 hours of no class for 7 school days at the middle school level

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We can all have our views, but for those parents who want to opt out, why?

I just don't get your holier than thou approach as if you know better. You are all pretending to be experts on standardized tests. You are all experts on testing procedures. Go ahead and opt out, I hope your teachers also opt out of anything above and beyond for your kids. When you opt out, you are hurting many people, your school, your teachers, your kid's friends, your neighborhood, DCPS, and so on. And the final nail could be your own child. You think you are doing good but it could even be detrimental.

Live and let live, right?

I dont plan to opt but if I did Im not sure how it hurts the school or my kids friends. My kid is almost two grades ahead in her current classroom and I know the eacher and school really really want to make sure kid takes the test the school scores. But its not like school has ever gone above and beyond for my kid, its always "smart kids will be fine anywhere"

Just let you kid take the PARCC. It is so low stakes. I'm encouraging and supporting my children to show what they know. I don't care if you think it is a stupid test. I don't care if it is useless. It's an experience that my kids will have. I'm raising my children to shine and be the best they can be and not to look for excuses or opting out. It's just another assessment, just like i-Ready, RI, ANet, and so on.

i - Ready, RI, ANET all take 60 - 90 minutes (maybe 2 hours). PARCC is a two week disruption to schedules

PARCC is generally over 3 days for a particular grade: ELA, math, and SCI, and take a total of fewer than 8 hours. Once a year.

Tests like ANet are usually administered several times a year.

2 1/2 hours of no class for 7 school days at the middle school level

Not at our middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You may want to check out the 6 page thread on this very topic: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1032577.page

And, it's relevant because DC doesn't have another test ready to go at the moment and federal law mandates accountability testing of some kind.

This. Kids need some type of standardized test to see how they are doing in general and compared to peers. DC happens to pick PARCC which is not the best

And it also makes it difficult to norm against peer performance when no other states take it! But Bill Gates and Pearson Education are living pretty high on the hog from it. Follow the money.

If kids need a test to tell us how they're doing in general and compared to peers then why do the highest-performing school systems in the world avoid standardized tests for elementary and middle school-age kids, including Singapore, Finland, the city of Shang'hai and the Netherlands? What we're doing here in the US is BETTER than what these countries are doing?

The reality is that there are no shortcuts to improving educational outcomes for poor kids. If a society won't provide optimal inputs, not much point in obsessively, and expensively, measuring sub-optimal outputs every year.

1) You are comparing some of the best school systems in the world to DCPS, one of the worst performing school systems in the US. You realize that most DCPS kids are performing below grade level and some are illiterate?

2) Your information is wrong. Take Singapore, for example. Schools are ranked based on how kids do on standardized tests. In fact, all kids in Singapore take the PSLE at the end of grade 6, which is held over 4 days and determines where they will go to middle school. Want another example? China invented standardized tests over 2000 years ago, so I don’t think that your Shanghai example makes sense. In fact, middle school students in China take the Zhongkao standardized test to determine whether they go on to high school and where they go.

3) One reason we know that US middle school education is worse than Singapore, Finland, China, and the Netherlands is because OECD has kids take a standardized test. That test shows that the US is worse than all those countries in literacy, numeracy, and science. Moreover, in the US, DC ranks among the lowest in the country (along with Alabama, Mississippi, and West Virginia) in dropout rate, math scores, reading scores, median SAT scores, etc.

And how are we able to compare DC to states in the US and other countries? Yes, standardized tests. And how can we establish a baseline to try to improve DCPS and see which schools are excelling and which are not? Yes, standardized tests.

All standard tests certainly aren't created equal. I took around 10 British O-Levels as a teen, tests did not include multiple-choice problems that were graded by actual humans. Friends sent their children to a school in Singapore that gives the PSLE. Their kids have also taken PARCC (not in DC). I'm told that the former (also graded by humans) bears no resemblance to the miserable latter. Students in Singapore gain from acing PSLE, their magnet MS entrance exam. They can show their work on math problems they ultimately get wrong to receive partial credit. The PSLE isn't all multiple choice, not by a long shot.

The crappy tests graded by computers the US insists on using, where students and their families aren't rewarded for high scores individually, are for the birds. Opting out sounds eminently reasonable under the circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You may want to check out the 6 page thread on this very topic: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1032577.page

And, it's relevant because DC doesn't have another test ready to go at the moment and federal law mandates accountability testing of some kind.

This. Kids need some type of standardized test to see how they are doing in general and compared to peers. DC happens to pick PARCC which is not the best

And it also makes it difficult to norm against peer performance when no other states take it! But Bill Gates and Pearson Education are living pretty high on the hog from it. Follow the money.

If kids need a test to tell us how they're doing in general and compared to peers then why do the highest-performing school systems in the world avoid standardized tests for elementary and middle school-age kids, including Singapore, Finland, the city of Shang'hai and the Netherlands? What we're doing here in the US is BETTER than what these countries are doing?

The reality is that there are no shortcuts to improving educational outcomes for poor kids. If a society won't provide optimal inputs, not much point in obsessively, and expensively, measuring sub-optimal outputs every year.

1) You are comparing some of the best school systems in the world to DCPS, one of the worst performing school systems in the US. You realize that most DCPS kids are performing below grade level and some are illiterate?

2) Your information is wrong. Take Singapore, for example. Schools are ranked based on how kids do on standardized tests. In fact, all kids in Singapore take the PSLE at the end of grade 6, which is held over 4 days and determines where they will go to middle school. Want another example? China invented standardized tests over 2000 years ago, so I don’t think that your Shanghai example makes sense. In fact, middle school students in China take the Zhongkao standardized test to determine whether they go on to high school and where they go.

3) One reason we know that US middle school education is worse than Singapore, Finland, China, and the Netherlands is because OECD has kids take a standardized test. That test shows that the US is worse than all those countries in literacy, numeracy, and science. Moreover, in the US, DC ranks among the lowest in the country (along with Alabama, Mississippi, and West Virginia) in dropout rate, math scores, reading scores, median SAT scores, etc.

And how are we able to compare DC to states in the US and other countries? Yes, standardized tests. And how can we establish a baseline to try to improve DCPS and see which schools are excelling and which are not? Yes, standardized tests.

All standard tests certainly aren't created equal. I took around 10 British O-Levels as a teen, tests did not include multiple-choice problems that were graded by actual humans. Friends sent their children to a school in Singapore that gives the PSLE. Their kids have also taken PARCC (not in DC). I'm told that the former (also graded by humans) bears no resemblance to the miserable latter. Students in Singapore gain from acing PSLE, their magnet MS entrance exam. They can show their work on math problems they ultimately get wrong to receive partial credit. The PSLE isn't all multiple choice, not by a long shot.

The crappy tests graded by computers the US insists on using, where students and their families aren't rewarded for high scores individually, are for the birds. Opting out sounds eminently reasonable under the circumstances.

Woooooosssshhhh!



(The tests serve different purposes.)