New bike lane on Old Georgetown Rd in Bethesda

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We’ve seen HS kids we know riding (we assume) to WJ in the morning. I feel safer knowing they are in the bike lane.

Maybe they are riding their bikes now because thanks to these bike lanes their school bus is stuck in traffic and they don’t want to be late for school.

Yes, bikes can be a great, speedy, and efficient transportation option. Active transportation in the morning before school also helps with learning. I'm really glad the WJ kids have a safe option for biking along Old Georgetown to school now. Plenty of WJ kids bike to school and from school, and I know of several who have been hit in the past. The bike lanes and safe sidewalks will also be great when the Woodward building is done and the Northwood kids come for 2 years, and then later when Woodward itself opens, of course.

Woodward is being opened for the primary purpose to alleviate overcrowding in the DCC. It is entirely possible that the boundary would only extend to Garrett Park ES. As a result, although the boundary has not yet been set, there will likely be few if any kids within the “walkshed” or even in a location where they can take advantage of these bike lanes.

As you are also not aware, Northwood is located in Silver Spring so the entire student body will arrive via school bus. The Woodward site has a massive setback with a parking lot and bus staging area in front, much to the chagrin of the former Planning Board chair.

The entire Northwood student body will be offered bus transportation, which is not at all the same as the entire student body will arrive via school bus, or leave via school bus. As you may know, high school students often go places (school, the Giant shopping center, the Wildwood shopping center, Pike and Rose, downtown Bethesda) and do things on their own, and they often use their own feet, or scooters, or bikes, or public buses, to do it. WJ kids do it, Northwood students will too, and so will Woodward students.

It's true that MCPS does like to put all of the car and bus stuff in front, unfortunately given that it's 2023 and not 1960.

I guess there are two things that don’t make sense. First, the sidewalk is not being nor has been widened. I am told repeatedly that bike lanes are for bicycles and if you stand in one as a pedestrian and get hit it’s your own fault (which contradicts what bicyclists say about expectations for cars in roads but that’s another matter). Second, how are the Northwood students going to get their bikes to school to use the bike lanes?

Let me add a third. How have WJ students this far been able to survive and not get hit by cars on Old Georgetown or Democracy, two “stroads” that bound the school without the bike lanes? I’ve lived here for 20 years and that’s never happened once.

As far as I know, no WJ student has been hit and killed, at least not in recent years, but WJ students have certainly been hit and injured on those roads. There's also the 13-year-old who was hit and and almost killed. Given her age, she was probably in middle school, not high school.

When and where were these students hit by cars?

The 13-year-old was hit crossing the on-ramp to the inner loop, just south of the Beltway. https://www2.montgomerycountymd.gov/mcgportalapps/Press_Detail_Pol.aspx?Item_ID=31844

You claimed that WJ students were hit. While the incident is unfortunate, that is not a WJ student and it was not during school hours.

I'm not claiming. It's a fact. Why do you think there are those two newish signals on Democracy at WJ? The police don't put out a press release every time there's a car crash. It's not uncommon at all for students all over the county to get hit on their way to school or coming back from school. Just because you personally don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Those “newish signals” are HAWK signals and they were installed a decade ago. You cannot seem to get your story straight.

Yes, they're HAWK signals. No, they weren't installed a decade ago.
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Friedson/status/1286732312521179138

So you agree that bike lanes are not the appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. So why do you keep claiming otherwise?

Between the Gish Gallop and the goalpost-moving, you're getting a lot of exercise.

Nobody has said bike lanes are not an appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. Quite the opposite: they are a well-known strategy, endorsed by the Federal Highway Administration, for making streets safer for everyone, including pedestrians.

https://highways.dot.gov/safety/proven-safety-countermeasures

Changing goalposts you say? Trying to claim that a bike lane is really for pedestrians is pretty bottom barrel. I also appreciate the need for the last word. Cheers.

DP

Why shouldn’t pedestrians be allowed to use a bike lane?

Before cars, everyone used the street. It doesn’t just belong to cars. Or cyclists.

Cyclists believe that bike lanes should be a space exclusively for them. But that they should also be able to use the sidewalk or roadway whenever they want as well.

Correct. Bike lanes are exclusively for bikes- not cars or pedestrians. . Other lanes are for bikes OR cars. Sidewalks are for bikes OR pedestrians. Yes, you e grasped the truth, Captain Obvious.

If you rode a bike, you’d discover the world is your oyster. Why don’t you just give up and join us?

So what space can pedestrians use to feel safe from bikes and cars?

Sidewalks next to protected bike lanes. For example, the sidewalks on Old Georgetown Road, which are now much safer for pedestrians with respect to cars, and bicyclists are also much less likely to use the sidewalks now that there are the bike lanes. If you're concerned about pedestrians, you should push for protected bike lanes every chance you get.

But the cyclists can ride on those too. Tell me what space is there exclusively for pedestrians?

What problem are you trying to solve?

There is no space that pedestrians have exclusive access to where they can be if they feel unsafe around bicycles. That’s the problem.

Agree! Bicyclists are hypocrites. They advocate for their own safety and then have no qualms about how they treat pedestrians.

You know that "everyone is a pedestrian" messaging that shows up in PSAs? It applies to people who ride bicycles, just as much as people who drive. There is no us/them when it comes to bicyclists, or pedestrians, or drivers. All of us are pedestrians. Many of us are also drivers. Many of us are also bicyclists.

And then there's the issue of this is literally what the law says.

And yet cyclists have no qualms about demanding exclusive space and blaming more vulnerable users when they commit violence against them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[
And yet cyclists have no qualms about demanding exclusive space and blaming more vulnerable users when they commit violence against them.

I have no idea what you're talking about, other than yes, people who want to bike places do ask for good bike lanes. Good bike lanes are better for pedestrians, because bicyclists use good bike lanes instead of the sidewalk - and also, in the case of Old Georgetown Road, good bike lanes provide separation between pedestrians and cars. Good bike lanes are also better for drivers, because bicyclists use good bike lanes instead of the general travel lanes. And, of course, good bike lanes are better for bicyclists and other people on similar transportation devices, like e-scooters. Good bike lanes also make the road safer. So good bike lanes are a win all around for everyone.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We’ve seen HS kids we know riding (we assume) to WJ in the morning. I feel safer knowing they are in the bike lane.

Maybe they are riding their bikes now because thanks to these bike lanes their school bus is stuck in traffic and they don’t want to be late for school.

Yes, bikes can be a great, speedy, and efficient transportation option. Active transportation in the morning before school also helps with learning. I'm really glad the WJ kids have a safe option for biking along Old Georgetown to school now. Plenty of WJ kids bike to school and from school, and I know of several who have been hit in the past. The bike lanes and safe sidewalks will also be great when the Woodward building is done and the Northwood kids come for 2 years, and then later when Woodward itself opens, of course.

Woodward is being opened for the primary purpose to alleviate overcrowding in the DCC. It is entirely possible that the boundary would only extend to Garrett Park ES. As a result, although the boundary has not yet been set, there will likely be few if any kids within the “walkshed” or even in a location where they can take advantage of these bike lanes.

As you are also not aware, Northwood is located in Silver Spring so the entire student body will arrive via school bus. The Woodward site has a massive setback with a parking lot and bus staging area in front, much to the chagrin of the former Planning Board chair.

The entire Northwood student body will be offered bus transportation, which is not at all the same as the entire student body will arrive via school bus, or leave via school bus. As you may know, high school students often go places (school, the Giant shopping center, the Wildwood shopping center, Pike and Rose, downtown Bethesda) and do things on their own, and they often use their own feet, or scooters, or bikes, or public buses, to do it. WJ kids do it, Northwood students will too, and so will Woodward students.

It's true that MCPS does like to put all of the car and bus stuff in front, unfortunately given that it's 2023 and not 1960.

I guess there are two things that don’t make sense. First, the sidewalk is not being nor has been widened. I am told repeatedly that bike lanes are for bicycles and if you stand in one as a pedestrian and get hit it’s your own fault (which contradicts what bicyclists say about expectations for cars in roads but that’s another matter). Second, how are the Northwood students going to get their bikes to school to use the bike lanes?

Let me add a third. How have WJ students this far been able to survive and not get hit by cars on Old Georgetown or Democracy, two “stroads” that bound the school without the bike lanes? I’ve lived here for 20 years and that’s never happened once.

As far as I know, no WJ student has been hit and killed, at least not in recent years, but WJ students have certainly been hit and injured on those roads. There's also the 13-year-old who was hit and and almost killed. Given her age, she was probably in middle school, not high school.

When and where were these students hit by cars?

The 13-year-old was hit crossing the on-ramp to the inner loop, just south of the Beltway. https://www2.montgomerycountymd.gov/mcgportalapps/Press_Detail_Pol.aspx?Item_ID=31844

You claimed that WJ students were hit. While the incident is unfortunate, that is not a WJ student and it was not during school hours.

I'm not claiming. It's a fact. Why do you think there are those two newish signals on Democracy at WJ? The police don't put out a press release every time there's a car crash. It's not uncommon at all for students all over the county to get hit on their way to school or coming back from school. Just because you personally don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Those “newish signals” are HAWK signals and they were installed a decade ago. You cannot seem to get your story straight.

Yes, they're HAWK signals. No, they weren't installed a decade ago.
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Friedson/status/1286732312521179138

So you agree that bike lanes are not the appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. So why do you keep claiming otherwise?

Between the Gish Gallop and the goalpost-moving, you're getting a lot of exercise.

Nobody has said bike lanes are not an appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. Quite the opposite: they are a well-known strategy, endorsed by the Federal Highway Administration, for making streets safer for everyone, including pedestrians.

https://highways.dot.gov/safety/proven-safety-countermeasures

Changing goalposts you say? Trying to claim that a bike lane is really for pedestrians is pretty bottom barrel. I also appreciate the need for the last word. Cheers.

DP

Why shouldn’t pedestrians be allowed to use a bike lane?

Before cars, everyone used the street. It doesn’t just belong to cars. Or cyclists.

Cyclists believe that bike lanes should be a space exclusively for them. But that they should also be able to use the sidewalk or roadway whenever they want as well.

Correct. Bike lanes are exclusively for bikes- not cars or pedestrians. . Other lanes are for bikes OR cars. Sidewalks are for bikes OR pedestrians. Yes, you e grasped the truth, Captain Obvious.

If you rode a bike, you’d discover the world is your oyster. Why don’t you just give up and join us?

So what space can pedestrians use to feel safe from bikes and cars?

Sidewalks next to protected bike lanes. For example, the sidewalks on Old Georgetown Road, which are now much safer for pedestrians with respect to cars, and bicyclists are also much less likely to use the sidewalks now that there are the bike lanes. If you're concerned about pedestrians, you should push for protected bike lanes every chance you get.

But the cyclists can ride on those too. Tell me what space is there exclusively for pedestrians?

What problem are you trying to solve?

There is no space that pedestrians have exclusive access to where they can be if they feel unsafe around bicycles. That’s the problem.

How about space that pedestrians can use if they feel unsafe around cars? That's a much bigger problem. In a typical year in Montgomery County, 0 pedestrians are injured (0 fatally) in collisions with bicyclists, and 400 pedestrians are injured (10-15 fatally) in collisions with drivers. Including pedestrians who were on the sidewalk.

Of course you have every right to focus on anything you want to, but pedestrian safety involves protection from cars, not bicycles. Even for people who have an irrational phobia about bicycles and/or people who are riding bicycles

There is specific and delineated space between cars and pedestrians. There are many circumstances where pedestrians are unsafe around bicycles. Why is there no exclusive space for the safety of pedestrians?

We have a lot of crash data saying that's wrong.

Now, if you're asking, why aren't pedestrians safe when they're on the sidewalk? That's a good question. There are plenty of ways to make sidewalks safer, including space between the sidewalk and the road, level crossings across driveways, wider sidewalks, slower motor vehicle traffic, lighter motor vehicles, etc. We in the US should start doing those things.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We’ve seen HS kids we know riding (we assume) to WJ in the morning. I feel safer knowing they are in the bike lane.

Maybe they are riding their bikes now because thanks to these bike lanes their school bus is stuck in traffic and they don’t want to be late for school.

Yes, bikes can be a great, speedy, and efficient transportation option. Active transportation in the morning before school also helps with learning. I'm really glad the WJ kids have a safe option for biking along Old Georgetown to school now. Plenty of WJ kids bike to school and from school, and I know of several who have been hit in the past. The bike lanes and safe sidewalks will also be great when the Woodward building is done and the Northwood kids come for 2 years, and then later when Woodward itself opens, of course.

Woodward is being opened for the primary purpose to alleviate overcrowding in the DCC. It is entirely possible that the boundary would only extend to Garrett Park ES. As a result, although the boundary has not yet been set, there will likely be few if any kids within the “walkshed” or even in a location where they can take advantage of these bike lanes.

As you are also not aware, Northwood is located in Silver Spring so the entire student body will arrive via school bus. The Woodward site has a massive setback with a parking lot and bus staging area in front, much to the chagrin of the former Planning Board chair.

The entire Northwood student body will be offered bus transportation, which is not at all the same as the entire student body will arrive via school bus, or leave via school bus. As you may know, high school students often go places (school, the Giant shopping center, the Wildwood shopping center, Pike and Rose, downtown Bethesda) and do things on their own, and they often use their own feet, or scooters, or bikes, or public buses, to do it. WJ kids do it, Northwood students will too, and so will Woodward students.

It's true that MCPS does like to put all of the car and bus stuff in front, unfortunately given that it's 2023 and not 1960.

I guess there are two things that don’t make sense. First, the sidewalk is not being nor has been widened. I am told repeatedly that bike lanes are for bicycles and if you stand in one as a pedestrian and get hit it’s your own fault (which contradicts what bicyclists say about expectations for cars in roads but that’s another matter). Second, how are the Northwood students going to get their bikes to school to use the bike lanes?

Let me add a third. How have WJ students this far been able to survive and not get hit by cars on Old Georgetown or Democracy, two “stroads” that bound the school without the bike lanes? I’ve lived here for 20 years and that’s never happened once.

As far as I know, no WJ student has been hit and killed, at least not in recent years, but WJ students have certainly been hit and injured on those roads. There's also the 13-year-old who was hit and and almost killed. Given her age, she was probably in middle school, not high school.

When and where were these students hit by cars?

The 13-year-old was hit crossing the on-ramp to the inner loop, just south of the Beltway. https://www2.montgomerycountymd.gov/mcgportalapps/Press_Detail_Pol.aspx?Item_ID=31844

You claimed that WJ students were hit. While the incident is unfortunate, that is not a WJ student and it was not during school hours.

I'm not claiming. It's a fact. Why do you think there are those two newish signals on Democracy at WJ? The police don't put out a press release every time there's a car crash. It's not uncommon at all for students all over the county to get hit on their way to school or coming back from school. Just because you personally don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Those “newish signals” are HAWK signals and they were installed a decade ago. You cannot seem to get your story straight.

Yes, they're HAWK signals. No, they weren't installed a decade ago.
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Friedson/status/1286732312521179138

So you agree that bike lanes are not the appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. So why do you keep claiming otherwise?

Between the Gish Gallop and the goalpost-moving, you're getting a lot of exercise.

Nobody has said bike lanes are not an appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. Quite the opposite: they are a well-known strategy, endorsed by the Federal Highway Administration, for making streets safer for everyone, including pedestrians.

https://highways.dot.gov/safety/proven-safety-countermeasures

Changing goalposts you say? Trying to claim that a bike lane is really for pedestrians is pretty bottom barrel. I also appreciate the need for the last word. Cheers.

DP

Why shouldn’t pedestrians be allowed to use a bike lane?

Before cars, everyone used the street. It doesn’t just belong to cars. Or cyclists.

Cyclists believe that bike lanes should be a space exclusively for them. But that they should also be able to use the sidewalk or roadway whenever they want as well.

Correct. Bike lanes are exclusively for bikes- not cars or pedestrians. . Other lanes are for bikes OR cars. Sidewalks are for bikes OR pedestrians. Yes, you e grasped the truth, Captain Obvious.

If you rode a bike, you’d discover the world is your oyster. Why don’t you just give up and join us?

So what space can pedestrians use to feel safe from bikes and cars?

Sidewalks next to protected bike lanes. For example, the sidewalks on Old Georgetown Road, which are now much safer for pedestrians with respect to cars, and bicyclists are also much less likely to use the sidewalks now that there are the bike lanes. If you're concerned about pedestrians, you should push for protected bike lanes every chance you get.

But the cyclists can ride on those too. Tell me what space is there exclusively for pedestrians?

What problem are you trying to solve?

There is no space that pedestrians have exclusive access to where they can be if they feel unsafe around bicycles. That’s the problem.

Agree! Bicyclists are hypocrites. They advocate for their own safety and then have no qualms about how they treat pedestrians.

You know that "everyone is a pedestrian" messaging that shows up in PSAs? It applies to people who ride bicycles, just as much as people who drive. There is no us/them when it comes to bicyclists, or pedestrians, or drivers. All of us are pedestrians. Many of us are also drivers. Many of us are also bicyclists.

And then there's the issue of this is literally what the law says.

And yet cyclists have no qualms about demanding exclusive space and blaming more vulnerable users when they commit violence against them.

What would this forum be without bigoted curmudgeons like you?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We’ve seen HS kids we know riding (we assume) to WJ in the morning. I feel safer knowing they are in the bike lane.

Maybe they are riding their bikes now because thanks to these bike lanes their school bus is stuck in traffic and they don’t want to be late for school.

Yes, bikes can be a great, speedy, and efficient transportation option. Active transportation in the morning before school also helps with learning. I'm really glad the WJ kids have a safe option for biking along Old Georgetown to school now. Plenty of WJ kids bike to school and from school, and I know of several who have been hit in the past. The bike lanes and safe sidewalks will also be great when the Woodward building is done and the Northwood kids come for 2 years, and then later when Woodward itself opens, of course.

Woodward is being opened for the primary purpose to alleviate overcrowding in the DCC. It is entirely possible that the boundary would only extend to Garrett Park ES. As a result, although the boundary has not yet been set, there will likely be few if any kids within the “walkshed” or even in a location where they can take advantage of these bike lanes.

As you are also not aware, Northwood is located in Silver Spring so the entire student body will arrive via school bus. The Woodward site has a massive setback with a parking lot and bus staging area in front, much to the chagrin of the former Planning Board chair.

The entire Northwood student body will be offered bus transportation, which is not at all the same as the entire student body will arrive via school bus, or leave via school bus. As you may know, high school students often go places (school, the Giant shopping center, the Wildwood shopping center, Pike and Rose, downtown Bethesda) and do things on their own, and they often use their own feet, or scooters, or bikes, or public buses, to do it. WJ kids do it, Northwood students will too, and so will Woodward students.

It's true that MCPS does like to put all of the car and bus stuff in front, unfortunately given that it's 2023 and not 1960.

I guess there are two things that don’t make sense. First, the sidewalk is not being nor has been widened. I am told repeatedly that bike lanes are for bicycles and if you stand in one as a pedestrian and get hit it’s your own fault (which contradicts what bicyclists say about expectations for cars in roads but that’s another matter). Second, how are the Northwood students going to get their bikes to school to use the bike lanes?

Let me add a third. How have WJ students this far been able to survive and not get hit by cars on Old Georgetown or Democracy, two “stroads” that bound the school without the bike lanes? I’ve lived here for 20 years and that’s never happened once.

As far as I know, no WJ student has been hit and killed, at least not in recent years, but WJ students have certainly been hit and injured on those roads. There's also the 13-year-old who was hit and and almost killed. Given her age, she was probably in middle school, not high school.

When and where were these students hit by cars?

The 13-year-old was hit crossing the on-ramp to the inner loop, just south of the Beltway. https://www2.montgomerycountymd.gov/mcgportalapps/Press_Detail_Pol.aspx?Item_ID=31844

You claimed that WJ students were hit. While the incident is unfortunate, that is not a WJ student and it was not during school hours.

I'm not claiming. It's a fact. Why do you think there are those two newish signals on Democracy at WJ? The police don't put out a press release every time there's a car crash. It's not uncommon at all for students all over the county to get hit on their way to school or coming back from school. Just because you personally don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Those “newish signals” are HAWK signals and they were installed a decade ago. You cannot seem to get your story straight.

Yes, they're HAWK signals. No, they weren't installed a decade ago.
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Friedson/status/1286732312521179138

So you agree that bike lanes are not the appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. So why do you keep claiming otherwise?

Between the Gish Gallop and the goalpost-moving, you're getting a lot of exercise.

Nobody has said bike lanes are not an appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. Quite the opposite: they are a well-known strategy, endorsed by the Federal Highway Administration, for making streets safer for everyone, including pedestrians.

https://highways.dot.gov/safety/proven-safety-countermeasures

Changing goalposts you say? Trying to claim that a bike lane is really for pedestrians is pretty bottom barrel. I also appreciate the need for the last word. Cheers.

DP

Why shouldn’t pedestrians be allowed to use a bike lane?

Before cars, everyone used the street. It doesn’t just belong to cars. Or cyclists.

Cyclists believe that bike lanes should be a space exclusively for them. But that they should also be able to use the sidewalk or roadway whenever they want as well.

Correct. Bike lanes are exclusively for bikes- not cars or pedestrians. . Other lanes are for bikes OR cars. Sidewalks are for bikes OR pedestrians. Yes, you e grasped the truth, Captain Obvious.

If you rode a bike, you’d discover the world is your oyster. Why don’t you just give up and join us?

So what space can pedestrians use to feel safe from bikes and cars?

Sidewalks next to protected bike lanes. For example, the sidewalks on Old Georgetown Road, which are now much safer for pedestrians with respect to cars, and bicyclists are also much less likely to use the sidewalks now that there are the bike lanes. If you're concerned about pedestrians, you should push for protected bike lanes every chance you get.

But the cyclists can ride on those too. Tell me what space is there exclusively for pedestrians?

What problem are you trying to solve?

There is no space that pedestrians have exclusive access to where they can be if they feel unsafe around bicycles. That’s the problem.

How about space that pedestrians can use if they feel unsafe around cars? That's a much bigger problem. In a typical year in Montgomery County, 0 pedestrians are injured (0 fatally) in collisions with bicyclists, and 400 pedestrians are injured (10-15 fatally) in collisions with drivers. Including pedestrians who were on the sidewalk.

Of course you have every right to focus on anything you want to, but pedestrian safety involves protection from cars, not bicycles. Even for people who have an irrational phobia about bicycles and/or people who are riding bicycles

There is specific and delineated space between cars and pedestrians. There are many circumstances where pedestrians are unsafe around bicycles. Why is there no exclusive space for the safety of pedestrians?

We have a lot of crash data saying that's wrong.

Now, if you're asking, why aren't pedestrians safe when they're on the sidewalk? That's a good question. There are plenty of ways to make sidewalks safer, including space between the sidewalk and the road, level crossings across driveways, wider sidewalks, slower motor vehicle traffic, lighter motor vehicles, etc. We in the US should start doing those things.

We even teach children that, while they're walking on the sidewalk, they're supposed to stop at every driveway to check for cars coming and going. ON THE SIDEWALK. Kids should be safe from cars while they're walking on the sidewalk.

https://zerodeathsmd.gov/news/teaching-kids-about-pedestrian-safety/

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We’ve seen HS kids we know riding (we assume) to WJ in the morning. I feel safer knowing they are in the bike lane.

Maybe they are riding their bikes now because thanks to these bike lanes their school bus is stuck in traffic and they don’t want to be late for school.

Yes, bikes can be a great, speedy, and efficient transportation option. Active transportation in the morning before school also helps with learning. I'm really glad the WJ kids have a safe option for biking along Old Georgetown to school now. Plenty of WJ kids bike to school and from school, and I know of several who have been hit in the past. The bike lanes and safe sidewalks will also be great when the Woodward building is done and the Northwood kids come for 2 years, and then later when Woodward itself opens, of course.

Woodward is being opened for the primary purpose to alleviate overcrowding in the DCC. It is entirely possible that the boundary would only extend to Garrett Park ES. As a result, although the boundary has not yet been set, there will likely be few if any kids within the “walkshed” or even in a location where they can take advantage of these bike lanes.

As you are also not aware, Northwood is located in Silver Spring so the entire student body will arrive via school bus. The Woodward site has a massive setback with a parking lot and bus staging area in front, much to the chagrin of the former Planning Board chair.

The entire Northwood student body will be offered bus transportation, which is not at all the same as the entire student body will arrive via school bus, or leave via school bus. As you may know, high school students often go places (school, the Giant shopping center, the Wildwood shopping center, Pike and Rose, downtown Bethesda) and do things on their own, and they often use their own feet, or scooters, or bikes, or public buses, to do it. WJ kids do it, Northwood students will too, and so will Woodward students.

It's true that MCPS does like to put all of the car and bus stuff in front, unfortunately given that it's 2023 and not 1960.

I guess there are two things that don’t make sense. First, the sidewalk is not being nor has been widened. I am told repeatedly that bike lanes are for bicycles and if you stand in one as a pedestrian and get hit it’s your own fault (which contradicts what bicyclists say about expectations for cars in roads but that’s another matter). Second, how are the Northwood students going to get their bikes to school to use the bike lanes?

Let me add a third. How have WJ students this far been able to survive and not get hit by cars on Old Georgetown or Democracy, two “stroads” that bound the school without the bike lanes? I’ve lived here for 20 years and that’s never happened once.

As far as I know, no WJ student has been hit and killed, at least not in recent years, but WJ students have certainly been hit and injured on those roads. There's also the 13-year-old who was hit and and almost killed. Given her age, she was probably in middle school, not high school.

When and where were these students hit by cars?

The 13-year-old was hit crossing the on-ramp to the inner loop, just south of the Beltway. https://www2.montgomerycountymd.gov/mcgportalapps/Press_Detail_Pol.aspx?Item_ID=31844

You claimed that WJ students were hit. While the incident is unfortunate, that is not a WJ student and it was not during school hours.

I'm not claiming. It's a fact. Why do you think there are those two newish signals on Democracy at WJ? The police don't put out a press release every time there's a car crash. It's not uncommon at all for students all over the county to get hit on their way to school or coming back from school. Just because you personally don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Those “newish signals” are HAWK signals and they were installed a decade ago. You cannot seem to get your story straight.

Yes, they're HAWK signals. No, they weren't installed a decade ago.
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Friedson/status/1286732312521179138

So you agree that bike lanes are not the appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. So why do you keep claiming otherwise?

Between the Gish Gallop and the goalpost-moving, you're getting a lot of exercise.

Nobody has said bike lanes are not an appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. Quite the opposite: they are a well-known strategy, endorsed by the Federal Highway Administration, for making streets safer for everyone, including pedestrians.

https://highways.dot.gov/safety/proven-safety-countermeasures

Changing goalposts you say? Trying to claim that a bike lane is really for pedestrians is pretty bottom barrel. I also appreciate the need for the last word. Cheers.

DP

Why shouldn’t pedestrians be allowed to use a bike lane?

Before cars, everyone used the street. It doesn’t just belong to cars. Or cyclists.

Cyclists believe that bike lanes should be a space exclusively for them. But that they should also be able to use the sidewalk or roadway whenever they want as well.

Correct. Bike lanes are exclusively for bikes- not cars or pedestrians. . Other lanes are for bikes OR cars. Sidewalks are for bikes OR pedestrians. Yes, you e grasped the truth, Captain Obvious.

If you rode a bike, you’d discover the world is your oyster. Why don’t you just give up and join us?

So what space can pedestrians use to feel safe from bikes and cars?

Sidewalks next to protected bike lanes. For example, the sidewalks on Old Georgetown Road, which are now much safer for pedestrians with respect to cars, and bicyclists are also much less likely to use the sidewalks now that there are the bike lanes. If you're concerned about pedestrians, you should push for protected bike lanes every chance you get.

But the cyclists can ride on those too. Tell me what space is there exclusively for pedestrians?

What problem are you trying to solve?

There is no space that pedestrians have exclusive access to where they can be if they feel unsafe around bicycles. That’s the problem.

How about space that pedestrians can use if they feel unsafe around cars? That's a much bigger problem. In a typical year in Montgomery County, 0 pedestrians are injured (0 fatally) in collisions with bicyclists, and 400 pedestrians are injured (10-15 fatally) in collisions with drivers. Including pedestrians who were on the sidewalk.

Of course you have every right to focus on anything you want to, but pedestrian safety involves protection from cars, not bicycles. Even for people who have an irrational phobia about bicycles and/or people who are riding bicycles

There is specific and delineated space between cars and pedestrians. There are many circumstances where pedestrians are unsafe around bicycles. Why is there no exclusive space for the safety of pedestrians?

We have a lot of crash data saying that's wrong.

Now, if you're asking, why aren't pedestrians safe when they're on the sidewalk? That's a good question. There are plenty of ways to make sidewalks safer, including space between the sidewalk and the road, level crossings across driveways, wider sidewalks, slower motor vehicle traffic, lighter motor vehicles, etc. We in the US should start doing those things.

Then why to bicyclists demand a separate space than sidewalks? You need to get your story straight but also recognize that just like for cyclists, if pedestrians don’t feel safe that is equally important.

[Anonymous]

i take Old Georgetown Road a couple of times a week and I still haven’t seen anyone in the bike lane. Even on nice days. Hopefully they will come…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
And yet cyclists have no qualms about demanding exclusive space and blaming more vulnerable users when they commit violence against them.

I have no idea what you're talking about, other than yes, people who want to bike places do ask for good bike lanes. Good bike lanes are better for pedestrians, because bicyclists use good bike lanes instead of the sidewalk - and also, in the case of Old Georgetown Road, good bike lanes provide separation between pedestrians and cars. Good bike lanes are also better for drivers, because bicyclists use good bike lanes instead of the general travel lanes. And, of course, good bike lanes are better for bicyclists and other people on similar transportation devices, like e-scooters. Good bike lanes also make the road safer. So good bike lanes are a win all around for everyone.

There is also a lot of crash data IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY that cars are not negligently killing cyclists. On average one cyclist per year dies on Montgomery County roads and only a fraction of those over multiple decades are due to driver negligence. So why don’t cyclists feel safe and why are millions spent to help them feel safe? Why is that same courtesy not afforded pedestrians?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
And yet cyclists have no qualms about demanding exclusive space and blaming more vulnerable users when they commit violence against them.

I have no idea what you're talking about, other than yes, people who want to bike places do ask for good bike lanes. Good bike lanes are better for pedestrians, because bicyclists use good bike lanes instead of the sidewalk - and also, in the case of Old Georgetown Road, good bike lanes provide separation between pedestrians and cars. Good bike lanes are also better for drivers, because bicyclists use good bike lanes instead of the general travel lanes. And, of course, good bike lanes are better for bicyclists and other people on similar transportation devices, like e-scooters. Good bike lanes also make the road safer. So good bike lanes are a win all around for everyone.

There is also a lot of crash data IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY that cars are not negligently killing cyclists. On average one cyclist per year dies on Montgomery County roads and only a fraction of those over multiple decades are due to driver negligence. So why don’t cyclists feel safe and why are millions spent to help them feel safe? Why is that same courtesy not afforded pedestrians?

Bicyclists might feel unsafe given the roughly 110 bicyclists hit and injured in the county each year, just a guess. Plus of course all the people who would bike, but don't, because they don't feel safe biking next to cars going 40-50 mph.

Which same courtesy is not afforded pedestrians? The county actually does spend millions a year to build sidewalks. For example, there's about $4.3 million in the county capital budget this year for building "minor project" sidewalks, in addition to individual funding for bigger projects. You know what else is really, really good for pedestrians? The Old Georgetown Road bike lanes.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We’ve seen HS kids we know riding (we assume) to WJ in the morning. I feel safer knowing they are in the bike lane.

Maybe they are riding their bikes now because thanks to these bike lanes their school bus is stuck in traffic and they don’t want to be late for school.

Yes, bikes can be a great, speedy, and efficient transportation option. Active transportation in the morning before school also helps with learning. I'm really glad the WJ kids have a safe option for biking along Old Georgetown to school now. Plenty of WJ kids bike to school and from school, and I know of several who have been hit in the past. The bike lanes and safe sidewalks will also be great when the Woodward building is done and the Northwood kids come for 2 years, and then later when Woodward itself opens, of course.

Woodward is being opened for the primary purpose to alleviate overcrowding in the DCC. It is entirely possible that the boundary would only extend to Garrett Park ES. As a result, although the boundary has not yet been set, there will likely be few if any kids within the “walkshed” or even in a location where they can take advantage of these bike lanes.

As you are also not aware, Northwood is located in Silver Spring so the entire student body will arrive via school bus. The Woodward site has a massive setback with a parking lot and bus staging area in front, much to the chagrin of the former Planning Board chair.

The entire Northwood student body will be offered bus transportation, which is not at all the same as the entire student body will arrive via school bus, or leave via school bus. As you may know, high school students often go places (school, the Giant shopping center, the Wildwood shopping center, Pike and Rose, downtown Bethesda) and do things on their own, and they often use their own feet, or scooters, or bikes, or public buses, to do it. WJ kids do it, Northwood students will too, and so will Woodward students.

It's true that MCPS does like to put all of the car and bus stuff in front, unfortunately given that it's 2023 and not 1960.

I guess there are two things that don’t make sense. First, the sidewalk is not being nor has been widened. I am told repeatedly that bike lanes are for bicycles and if you stand in one as a pedestrian and get hit it’s your own fault (which contradicts what bicyclists say about expectations for cars in roads but that’s another matter). Second, how are the Northwood students going to get their bikes to school to use the bike lanes?

Let me add a third. How have WJ students this far been able to survive and not get hit by cars on Old Georgetown or Democracy, two “stroads” that bound the school without the bike lanes? I’ve lived here for 20 years and that’s never happened once.

As far as I know, no WJ student has been hit and killed, at least not in recent years, but WJ students have certainly been hit and injured on those roads. There's also the 13-year-old who was hit and and almost killed. Given her age, she was probably in middle school, not high school.

When and where were these students hit by cars?

The 13-year-old was hit crossing the on-ramp to the inner loop, just south of the Beltway. https://www2.montgomerycountymd.gov/mcgportalapps/Press_Detail_Pol.aspx?Item_ID=31844

You claimed that WJ students were hit. While the incident is unfortunate, that is not a WJ student and it was not during school hours.

I'm not claiming. It's a fact. Why do you think there are those two newish signals on Democracy at WJ? The police don't put out a press release every time there's a car crash. It's not uncommon at all for students all over the county to get hit on their way to school or coming back from school. Just because you personally don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Those “newish signals” are HAWK signals and they were installed a decade ago. You cannot seem to get your story straight.

Yes, they're HAWK signals. No, they weren't installed a decade ago.
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Friedson/status/1286732312521179138

So you agree that bike lanes are not the appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. So why do you keep claiming otherwise?

Between the Gish Gallop and the goalpost-moving, you're getting a lot of exercise.

Nobody has said bike lanes are not an appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. Quite the opposite: they are a well-known strategy, endorsed by the Federal Highway Administration, for making streets safer for everyone, including pedestrians.

https://highways.dot.gov/safety/proven-safety-countermeasures

Changing goalposts you say? Trying to claim that a bike lane is really for pedestrians is pretty bottom barrel. I also appreciate the need for the last word. Cheers.

DP

Why shouldn’t pedestrians be allowed to use a bike lane?

Before cars, everyone used the street. It doesn’t just belong to cars. Or cyclists.

Cyclists believe that bike lanes should be a space exclusively for them. But that they should also be able to use the sidewalk or roadway whenever they want as well.

Correct. Bike lanes are exclusively for bikes- not cars or pedestrians. . Other lanes are for bikes OR cars. Sidewalks are for bikes OR pedestrians. Yes, you e grasped the truth, Captain Obvious.

If you rode a bike, you’d discover the world is your oyster. Why don’t you just give up and join us?

So what space can pedestrians use to feel safe from bikes and cars?

Sidewalks next to protected bike lanes. For example, the sidewalks on Old Georgetown Road, which are now much safer for pedestrians with respect to cars, and bicyclists are also much less likely to use the sidewalks now that there are the bike lanes. If you're concerned about pedestrians, you should push for protected bike lanes every chance you get.

But the cyclists can ride on those too. Tell me what space is there exclusively for pedestrians?

What problem are you trying to solve?

There is no space that pedestrians have exclusive access to where they can be if they feel unsafe around bicycles. That’s the problem.

How about space that pedestrians can use if they feel unsafe around cars? That's a much bigger problem. In a typical year in Montgomery County, 0 pedestrians are injured (0 fatally) in collisions with bicyclists, and 400 pedestrians are injured (10-15 fatally) in collisions with drivers. Including pedestrians who were on the sidewalk.

Of course you have every right to focus on anything you want to, but pedestrian safety involves protection from cars, not bicycles. Even for people who have an irrational phobia about bicycles and/or people who are riding bicycles

There is specific and delineated space between cars and pedestrians. There are many circumstances where pedestrians are unsafe around bicycles. Why is there no exclusive space for the safety of pedestrians?

We have a lot of crash data saying that's wrong.

Now, if you're asking, why aren't pedestrians safe when they're on the sidewalk? That's a good question. There are plenty of ways to make sidewalks safer, including space between the sidewalk and the road, level crossings across driveways, wider sidewalks, slower motor vehicle traffic, lighter motor vehicles, etc. We in the US should start doing those things.

Then why to bicyclists demand a separate space than sidewalks? You need to get your story straight but also recognize that just like for cyclists, if pedestrians don’t feel safe that is equally important.

How about you go out and interview random pedestrians on the sidewalk, and ask them which makes them feel less safe, people bicycling on the sidewalk, or cars turning while they're trying to cross the street.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
And yet cyclists have no qualms about demanding exclusive space and blaming more vulnerable users when they commit violence against them.

I have no idea what you're talking about, other than yes, people who want to bike places do ask for good bike lanes. Good bike lanes are better for pedestrians, because bicyclists use good bike lanes instead of the sidewalk - and also, in the case of Old Georgetown Road, good bike lanes provide separation between pedestrians and cars. Good bike lanes are also better for drivers, because bicyclists use good bike lanes instead of the general travel lanes. And, of course, good bike lanes are better for bicyclists and other people on similar transportation devices, like e-scooters. Good bike lanes also make the road safer. So good bike lanes are a win all around for everyone.

As much as we have dangerous and aggressive drivers, there are also dangerous and aggressive cyclists as well, who do a number of things that endanger pedestrians, like not yielding right of way to pedestrians when pedestrians are supposed to have right of way, like riding on sidewalks, and so on. There have in fact been local instances of pedestrians struck and injured and even killed by cyclists riding on the same path/sidewalk as pedestrians.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We’ve seen HS kids we know riding (we assume) to WJ in the morning. I feel safer knowing they are in the bike lane.

Maybe they are riding their bikes now because thanks to these bike lanes their school bus is stuck in traffic and they don’t want to be late for school.

Yes, bikes can be a great, speedy, and efficient transportation option. Active transportation in the morning before school also helps with learning. I'm really glad the WJ kids have a safe option for biking along Old Georgetown to school now. Plenty of WJ kids bike to school and from school, and I know of several who have been hit in the past. The bike lanes and safe sidewalks will also be great when the Woodward building is done and the Northwood kids come for 2 years, and then later when Woodward itself opens, of course.

Woodward is being opened for the primary purpose to alleviate overcrowding in the DCC. It is entirely possible that the boundary would only extend to Garrett Park ES. As a result, although the boundary has not yet been set, there will likely be few if any kids within the “walkshed” or even in a location where they can take advantage of these bike lanes.

As you are also not aware, Northwood is located in Silver Spring so the entire student body will arrive via school bus. The Woodward site has a massive setback with a parking lot and bus staging area in front, much to the chagrin of the former Planning Board chair.

The entire Northwood student body will be offered bus transportation, which is not at all the same as the entire student body will arrive via school bus, or leave via school bus. As you may know, high school students often go places (school, the Giant shopping center, the Wildwood shopping center, Pike and Rose, downtown Bethesda) and do things on their own, and they often use their own feet, or scooters, or bikes, or public buses, to do it. WJ kids do it, Northwood students will too, and so will Woodward students.

It's true that MCPS does like to put all of the car and bus stuff in front, unfortunately given that it's 2023 and not 1960.

I guess there are two things that don’t make sense. First, the sidewalk is not being nor has been widened. I am told repeatedly that bike lanes are for bicycles and if you stand in one as a pedestrian and get hit it’s your own fault (which contradicts what bicyclists say about expectations for cars in roads but that’s another matter). Second, how are the Northwood students going to get their bikes to school to use the bike lanes?

Let me add a third. How have WJ students this far been able to survive and not get hit by cars on Old Georgetown or Democracy, two “stroads” that bound the school without the bike lanes? I’ve lived here for 20 years and that’s never happened once.

As far as I know, no WJ student has been hit and killed, at least not in recent years, but WJ students have certainly been hit and injured on those roads. There's also the 13-year-old who was hit and and almost killed. Given her age, she was probably in middle school, not high school.

When and where were these students hit by cars?

The 13-year-old was hit crossing the on-ramp to the inner loop, just south of the Beltway. https://www2.montgomerycountymd.gov/mcgportalapps/Press_Detail_Pol.aspx?Item_ID=31844

You claimed that WJ students were hit. While the incident is unfortunate, that is not a WJ student and it was not during school hours.

I'm not claiming. It's a fact. Why do you think there are those two newish signals on Democracy at WJ? The police don't put out a press release every time there's a car crash. It's not uncommon at all for students all over the county to get hit on their way to school or coming back from school. Just because you personally don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Those “newish signals” are HAWK signals and they were installed a decade ago. You cannot seem to get your story straight.

Yes, they're HAWK signals. No, they weren't installed a decade ago.
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Friedson/status/1286732312521179138

So you agree that bike lanes are not the appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. So why do you keep claiming otherwise?

Between the Gish Gallop and the goalpost-moving, you're getting a lot of exercise.

Nobody has said bike lanes are not an appropriate policy response to pedestrian safety. Quite the opposite: they are a well-known strategy, endorsed by the Federal Highway Administration, for making streets safer for everyone, including pedestrians.

https://highways.dot.gov/safety/proven-safety-countermeasures

Changing goalposts you say? Trying to claim that a bike lane is really for pedestrians is pretty bottom barrel. I also appreciate the need for the last word. Cheers.

DP

Why shouldn’t pedestrians be allowed to use a bike lane?

Before cars, everyone used the street. It doesn’t just belong to cars. Or cyclists.

Cyclists believe that bike lanes should be a space exclusively for them. But that they should also be able to use the sidewalk or roadway whenever they want as well.

Correct. Bike lanes are exclusively for bikes- not cars or pedestrians. . Other lanes are for bikes OR cars. Sidewalks are for bikes OR pedestrians. Yes, you e grasped the truth, Captain Obvious.

If you rode a bike, you’d discover the world is your oyster. Why don’t you just give up and join us?

So what space can pedestrians use to feel safe from bikes and cars?

Sidewalks next to protected bike lanes. For example, the sidewalks on Old Georgetown Road, which are now much safer for pedestrians with respect to cars, and bicyclists are also much less likely to use the sidewalks now that there are the bike lanes. If you're concerned about pedestrians, you should push for protected bike lanes every chance you get.

But the cyclists can ride on those too. Tell me what space is there exclusively for pedestrians?

What problem are you trying to solve?

There is no space that pedestrians have exclusive access to where they can be if they feel unsafe around bicycles. That’s the problem.

How about space that pedestrians can use if they feel unsafe around cars? That's a much bigger problem. In a typical year in Montgomery County, 0 pedestrians are injured (0 fatally) in collisions with bicyclists, and 400 pedestrians are injured (10-15 fatally) in collisions with drivers. Including pedestrians who were on the sidewalk.

Of course you have every right to focus on anything you want to, but pedestrian safety involves protection from cars, not bicycles. Even for people who have an irrational phobia about bicycles and/or people who are riding bicycles

There is specific and delineated space between cars and pedestrians. There are many circumstances where pedestrians are unsafe around bicycles. Why is there no exclusive space for the safety of pedestrians?

We have a lot of crash data saying that's wrong.

Now, if you're asking, why aren't pedestrians safe when they're on the sidewalk? That's a good question. There are plenty of ways to make sidewalks safer, including space between the sidewalk and the road, level crossings across driveways, wider sidewalks, slower motor vehicle traffic, lighter motor vehicles, etc. We in the US should start doing those things.

Then why to bicyclists demand a separate space than sidewalks? You need to get your story straight but also recognize that just like for cyclists, if pedestrians don’t feel safe that is equally important.

How about you go out and interview random pedestrians on the sidewalk, and ask them which makes them feel less safe, people bicycling on the sidewalk, or cars turning while they're trying to cross the street.

How do bike lanes prevent cars from turning at an intersection? If anything, increased distance from the curb makes pedestrians less visible which heightens risk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
And yet cyclists have no qualms about demanding exclusive space and blaming more vulnerable users when they commit violence against them.

I have no idea what you're talking about, other than yes, people who want to bike places do ask for good bike lanes. Good bike lanes are better for pedestrians, because bicyclists use good bike lanes instead of the sidewalk - and also, in the case of Old Georgetown Road, good bike lanes provide separation between pedestrians and cars. Good bike lanes are also better for drivers, because bicyclists use good bike lanes instead of the general travel lanes. And, of course, good bike lanes are better for bicyclists and other people on similar transportation devices, like e-scooters. Good bike lanes also make the road safer. So good bike lanes are a win all around for everyone.

As much as we have dangerous and aggressive drivers, there are also dangerous and aggressive cyclists as well, who do a number of things that endanger pedestrians, like not yielding right of way to pedestrians when pedestrians are supposed to have right of way, like riding on sidewalks, and so on. There have in fact been local instances of pedestrians struck and injured and even killed by cyclists riding on the same path/sidewalk as pedestrians.

Yes, people who are jerks are jerks, whether they're driving, bicycling, or doing anything else. Yes, there are very, very, very, very rare cases of pedestrians struck and injured or even killed by bicyclists on shared-use paths. One huge solution for both issues is: good bike lanes. Nonetheless, pedestrians understandably and rationally feel far less threatened by bikes than by cars, as evidenced by the fact that people are far more likely to walk in the middle of a bike lane than in the middle of a lane used by cars, for example on Old Georgetown Road. This isn't about people walking for you, though, it's about bigotry against people biking, and bigotry is by definition irrational.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How about you go out and interview random pedestrians on the sidewalk, and ask them which makes them feel less safe, people bicycling on the sidewalk, or cars turning while they're trying to cross the street.

How do bike lanes prevent cars from turning at an intersection? If anything, increased distance from the curb makes pedestrians less visible which heightens risk.

For you to interview random pedestrians on the sidewalk, you would have to be a pedestrian on the sidewalk yourself, which seems like something you never do. Because if you had ever walked on the Old Georgetown Road sidewalks, you would know how much safer for pedestrians they are now thanks to the bike lanes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How about you go out and interview random pedestrians on the sidewalk, and ask them which makes them feel less safe, people bicycling on the sidewalk, or cars turning while they're trying to cross the street.

How do bike lanes prevent cars from turning at an intersection? If anything, increased distance from the curb makes pedestrians less visible which heightens risk.

For you to interview random pedestrians on the sidewalk, you would have to be a pedestrian on the sidewalk yourself, which seems like something you never do. Because if you had ever walked on the Old Georgetown Road sidewalks, you would know how much safer for pedestrians they are now thanks to the bike lanes.

As a pedestrian, I don’t need to interview them. I find walking around bicycles to be unsafe and I would appreciate that bicycles were completely removed from pedestrian spaces to make me feel more safe and also encourage more people to walk, which will improve their health and stop climate change.