Is red shirting a cultural issue?

[Anonymous]

We went to our Montessori school's session on K. One of the parents made a strong case for doing private K and then repeating K in public school for boys. She made a very compelling case. I noticed that the American born parents seemed to fully agree but the foreign born parents were very surprised and concerned that their children would not be challenged enough. I have a number of international friends and the same distinction seems to apply that they are generally more interested in moving their kids up while our American friends are all considering holding their kids back.

Everyone wants the best for their kids and across the board and there really do not seem to be any developmental or intelligence issues distinguishing the two groups. There just seems to be more fear among the American parents that their boys are too active, not ready to sit still in the classroom, or may lose leadership opportunities and develop confidence issues if they are the smallest or don't go into K already very competent in what K offers. I'm just curious if this trend actually plays out in elementary school.

In full disclosure, we are completely on the fence about what to do and haven't figured out if redshirting is good or bad so no value judgements on it. We are now nervous about what the real expectations are for K and trying to decide what to do.

[Anonymous]

I would definitely go visit the public K classes where you son will be attending. I am sure there are a wide variety of experiences and expectations depending on the school and even the teacher. Our public K is all academic with no free play and one short afternoon recess. Not a good experience for an active boy like mine. But I have friends whose son is in K in another county and had a totally different experience. Lots of center time, freedom to move around a lot, no desks, very few worksheets (unlike at our school where our neighbor jokes about all the trees they kill to produce the tons of worksheets) and 2 recesses per day (and no homework). Go see and spend some time asking questions and looking at schedules. Ask parents in your neighborhood how their child's experience was in K. I think red shirting is more for higher socio-economic classes who can afford to pay for another year of preschool too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We went to our Montessori school's session on K. One of the parents made a strong case for doing private K and then repeating K in public school for boys. She made a very compelling case. I noticed that the American born parents seemed to fully agree but the foreign born parents were very surprised and concerned that their children would not be challenged enough. I have a number of international friends and the same distinction seems to apply that they are generally more interested in moving their kids up while our American friends are all considering holding their kids back.

Everyone wants the best for their kids and across the board and there really do not seem to be any developmental or intelligence issues distinguishing the two groups. There just seems to be more fear among the American parents that their boys are too active, not ready to sit still in the classroom, or may lose leadership opportunities and develop confidence issues if they are the smallest or don't go into K already very competent in what K offers. I'm just curious if this trend actually plays out in elementary school.

In full disclosure, we are completely on the fence about what to do and haven't figured out if redshirting is good or bad so no value judgements on it. We are now nervous about what the real expectations are for K and trying to decide what to do.

Foreign-born parents have often had to work very hard to get the opportunities that brought them to the U.S. and are more likely to encourage competitiveness as a personality trait. Native-born parents are aware of the nuances of our particular culture and are more likely to want to pass on advantages and privilege that are more intangible. Red-shirting is definitely a class phenomenon here. See the NYT article on the subject:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9902E2DC1430F930A35755C0A9619C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

[Anonymous]

Sorry, that link was to a single page. Here's a sample:

Furthermore, as Elizabeth Graue, a former kindergarten teacher who now studies school-readiness and redshirting at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, points out, ''Readiness is a relative issue.'' Studies of early-childhood teachers show they always complain about the youngest students, no matter their absolute age. 'In Illinois it will be the March-April-May kids; in California, it will be October-November-December,'' Graue says. ''It's really natural as a teacher to gravitate toward the kids who are easy to teach, especially when there's academic pressure and the younger kids are rolling around the floor and sticking pencils in their ears.''

But perhaps those kids with the pencils in their ears -- at least the less-affluent ones -- don't need ''the gift of time'' but rather to be brought into the schools. Forty-two years after Lyndon Johnson inaugurated Head Start, access to quality early education still highly correlates with class; and one serious side effect of pushing back the cutoffs is that while well-off kids with delayed enrollment will spend another year in preschool, probably doing what kindergartners did a generation ago, less-well-off children may, as the literacy specialist Katie Eller put it, spend ''another year watching TV in the basement with Grandma.'' What's more, given the socioeconomics of redshirting -- and the luxury involved in delaying for a year the free day care that is public school -- the oldest child in any given class is more likely to be well off and the youngest child is more likely to be poor. ''You almost have a double advantage coming to the well-off kids,'' says Samuel J. Meisels, president of Erikson Institute, a graduate school in child development in Chicago. ''From a public-policy point of view I find this very distressing.''

See here for the full article (all 7 pages):

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9902E2DC1430F930A35755C0A9619C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

[Anonymous]

i'm a foreign parent with a late-aug birthday 4-yo. one more year in private pre-K or K means additional $10K minimum expense which is significant for me. so the benefits must outweigh the costs.

my friend whose son 5-yo is in private K is seriously considering repeating K in public. she's from my country but i guess has the wealth to do it.

so from where i sit it's more socio-economical than cultural.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:. . . I have friends whose son is in K in another county and had a totally different experience. Lots of center time, freedom to move around a lot, no desks, very few worksheets (unlike at our school where our neighbor jokes about all the trees they kill to produce the tons of worksheets) and 2 recesses per day (and no homework). . .

If you don't mind, where is your friends' son in school? That sounds just like what I'm looking for! Many thanks in advance!

[Anonymous]

There are two groups who are red-shirting (generally). One are the student athletes, or kids whose parents want them to be student athletes, who are red-shirting to maximize athletic potential in the high school years.

The other are, from my anecdotal evidence, high socio-economic type A parents who want whats best for their DC and make assumptions that being the oldest in a class will necessarily translate to being a leader, being the most athletic, being at the top academically.

Please note, when I refer to red-shirting, I am not referring to summer birthdays, but rather the pre-May, year older than everyone else, kids.

[Anonymous]

OP WRT the culture issue, it seems t be something that white upper middle class parents do. It is almost unheard of in rural areas, inner city, or among black, latin, and Asian cultures.

[Anonymous]

Categories of red shirters:

1) Maximise student-athlete potential for high school sports (bigger, stronger, faster 9th graders that get to growth spurt earlier...some will sport facial hair by then and derive the athletic benefits of higher circulating endogenous growth and testosterone hormones). High school team quaterback and captain syndrome. Attitude born out of higher socioeconomic status and largely attributable to Amercian Caucasoids from my experience.

2) Transition from public to private high school (particularly into private boarding schools). Many will complete 9th grade in local public school and then transfer to an away 9th grade prep school. Their high school transcript to college will be sculptured and reflect the new prep school for college entrance admissions. This eases the transition to prep school as the intensity (depth and breadth) of intellectual work effort may be higher in the prep school. It also affords the student the opportunity to derive the full "4-year" benefit of the prep school environment (particularly in the N.E. independent boarding schools like Groton and Phillips Exeter Academy). In past decades, entry into these schools was largely limited to early entry years; but that has changed and occasional entry into later years is permitted including to possibilities of a post graduate (PG) year after graduating (usual), flunking out of being thrown out of another high school in senior year.

3) Students hell bent on a certain type of collegiate (university) education who feel they are not ready to put their best foot forward. They will opt for a PG year in an exclusive boarding school or university education abroad (Britain, Canada or Europe) for fine tuning and refinement prior to trying for their first choice American college or family alma mater. Some legacies take this route, particularly when in the bottom half of an exclusive prep school, and they are unsure to garner a prime seat in a selective American/University college. In my experience, a frequent choice of the American caucasoid gentry. The Scottish descendant going off to St Andrews for a period of study is an example.

4) There is a group who are strongly advised by the accepting school (for whatever reasons) to delay enrollment, or repeat a grade. These individuals dutifully will follow the advise of the accepting school.

5) At the entry level (K) there are varying State laws and regulations that dictate at what age a citizen can enroll in the public school system. There are some varying exceptions made from time to time based on individual negotiation and from case-to-case.

6) Some families, under the belief that older children perform better (in every sense of the word) in K, will red shirt their child hoping this will translate into better grades, leadership positions, peer respect, school yard athletic performance ("class mate domination"). This ultimately translates into better academic and extracurricular performance and better and more selective and/or prestigious college options in high school. I have only heard the caucasoid population bring up these reasons. No one from minority groups has ever discussed this with me as a rationale.

7) Some individuals are 'legitimately' not ready for K (medical and psychosocial reasons/issues) making delay reasonable and therefore red shirt (All comers fit into this category in my experience).

8) Lower socioeconomic groups frequently discuss with me the need of getting their children into the public school system at the earliest possible date, or even earlier, since economic factors make pre-school education and enrichment activities and babysitting services a more expensive proposition. The public school Kindergarten--full day--in effect providing the services of an inexpensive babbysitter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are two groups who are red-shirting (generally). One are the student athletes, or kids whose parents want them to be student athletes, who are red-shirting to maximize athletic potential in the high school years.

The other are, from my anecdotal evidence, high socio-economic type A parents who want whats best for their DC and make assumptions that being the oldest in a class will necessarily translate to being a leader, being the most athletic, being at the top academically.

Please note, when I refer to red-shirting, I am not referring to summer birthdays, but rather the pre-May, year older than everyone else, kids.

Yes, but it doesn't count really, then, does it?

Stacking the deck so little Johnny can be a big "success": good life lesson. Parents who hold kids back for this reason are complete losers.

[Anonymous]

I did not read this 7 page NYTimes article - but assume it was the same one from the magazine a few years ago.

As a parent of 2 summer birthday children the article made me think about what I am going to do. I had never thought about hold my kids back but in he article there was a story of an August birthday girl who made the cut-off and has always struggled year after year academically. I would hate for this to be my child. I think about this child's self-esteem, development and opportunities.

For us holding our children back would be a significant financial burden. But when the time comes next year, we will give it some serious thought.

On another posting a mother stated how she decided to hold her kid back. In this situation there were a few kids on the block who were born in the same year. Her child was the youngest and was always half a step behind the other children his age. I thought that this was good guidance and will try and apply similar observations for my child next year.

[Anonymous]

OP here, my circle of friends American and foreign are not particularly athletic, many Phds but I doubt most could run down a football field without tripping. I honestly don't think athletic ability is a driver with this crowd though it may be a more general driver for others. It seems to be more fear that if your children do not enter K already mastering the skills then the teachers will be frustrated with them and the children will learn to hate school rather than enjoy school affecting their attitude, confidence, and performance down the road.

I still have no idea no what to do. One the one hand holding DC back and DC being 6 months older than older kids and the saem age as other red shirted kids does not seem to be a big issue especially if DC develops a greater respect and love for school and learning. I have had younger and older friends throughout my whole life. Its worrisome though if the split in ages goes down demographic lines like race, nationality, and income.

[Anonymous]

I don't get this at all, OP. Why do you need to know if it's a cultural issue to decide what is best for your child in your own specific set of circumstances?

[Anonymous]

"I don't get this at all, OP. Why do you need to know if it's a cultural issue to decide what is best for your child in your own specific set of circumstances? "

Honestly, I was just struck by seeing the difference in how this issue was viewed. If everyone across the board was holding their kids back or seriously considering it I might look at it differently. Now I am obsessing as to whether we are doing something wrong in preparing our kids and whether there are cultural issues surrounding how foreign parents raise their kids that make their kids more resilent or able to handle K or is it just a difference in viewpoint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Categories of red shirters:

1) Maximise student-athlete potential for high school sports (bigger, stronger, faster 9th graders that get to growth spurt earlier...some will sport facial hair by then and derive the athletic benefits of higher circulating endogenous growth and testosterone hormones). High school team quaterback and captain syndrome. Attitude born out of higher socioeconomic status and largely attributable to Amercian Caucasoids from my experience.

I prefer the term Caucasian, myself. There's something je ne c'est quoi... eugenic? about the Caucasoid/Mongoloid/Negroid ethnic descriptors.