Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door yesterday citing book of Job

[Anonymous]

And wanted to talk about how God is not responsible for human suffering.

Full disclosure I grew up Catholic but am an atheist today, i have called myself the amicable atheist here in the past though, I'm not hostile towards religion and haven't posted here in quite awhile. Just want to be up front because I know there are a lot of more angry atheists who post here to troll and wanted to separate myself from them.

Anyway, they quoted Job to me. And so I was about to politely get rid of them when I just couldn't help myself and had to ask them how on earth they could use Job as the story that proves that God has no responsibility for suffering. Reading and studying Job is like the first crack that showed up in my religious belief. I was completely appalled by it when taught about it. And I was just kind of interested in talking about it with other people who aren't trying to get into my house to preach at me.

I really see God as being, while not RESPONSIBLE for Job's suffering in the sense that he did not murder his family HIMSELF. He also kind of egged Satan on and endorsed the idea of Satan testing Job. He did not in any way try to shield him and allowed him to serve as a symbolic sacrifice in this gamble between the gods.

I was just surprised, to have them use that to make that point. And I ended up going back and forth with them longer than I've ever talked to any door to door person and have been marinating on it for a couple of days.

Anyway, wondering if anyone else had such similar feelings about Job.

[Anonymous]

Many Christians believe that God creates suffering to better the person and bring them closer to Him. I don't think many believe that God is not responsible for any suffering at all. He controls everything... so they say

[Anonymous]

Why does this have to be about Christians? Job is in the Old Testament. With Jesus, there was a new and different covenant/relationship with God.

[Anonymous]

I think that if you don’t believe in the Christian God, it’s pointless to work yourself up about the Bible. You aren’t going to change the mind of JW’s, and they aren’t going to change your mind.

I’d just not answer the door or tell them to move on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that if you don’t believe in the Christian God, it’s pointless to work yourself up about the Bible. You aren’t going to change the mind of JW’s, and they aren’t going to change your mind.

I’d just not answer the door or tell them to move on.

I mean of course. But I spent more of my life as a Catholic than not and have spent the rest of it greatly interested in religious theory. I also spent a good amount of time in my teens arguing about Job as a believing Christian.

So just wondering about people's thoughts. I know everyone is afraid of the atheists but I'm a different cut than the usual one here.

I certainly am not going to change the JWs mind, was more just wondering if this was something less intense versions of Christianity were also using as a tool to combat this particular concern.

[Anonymous]

OP I hear you, God and The Adversary were like a couple of competing mob bosses deciding on a friendly bet this time--talk about collusion! Somehow all my church upbringing missed that aspect and I was stunned when I discovered it reading Job for a college class.

[Anonymous]

God was aware of Job’s suffering. Job knew God knew.God told Satan. Satan predicted Job would curse God. Job said with the good comes the bad. Both must be accepted.

God set limits to the trials Job was afflicted with. God was and is in charge.

God has reasons for our trials and tests that we should use as opportunities for personal growth. Not to become bitter or vengeful. Even Christ learned from His sufferings.

Humans like everything explained in a neat little package. They want the ending to be happy and make sense. Often things do not. We must understand not everything will make sense or be explained. That makes a lot of people unhappy and mad at God. I am a person who has learned that is part of life and trusting God.

Job trusted God even when things were awful. He didn’t say: my life is a nightmare. Where’s my reward? Where’s my prosperity for my faith, God? I am being shafted! I was promised heaven on earth. Satan thought Job’s faith was connection to his prosperity and blessings and riches. But Job’s faith was not dependent on that, at all. At his low point of anguish and bewilderment, Job declares his heartfelt trust in God. “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth.... I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself” (vv. 25–27

God ultimately will reworn punish good and evil. Long term, the goal of Christians should not be riches and reward on earth. If you don’t get your reward on earth, as a Christian- are you mad at God? You shouldn’t be, because your goal is eternal life with God in Heaven. If evil jerks live lives of fabulous wealth and privilege- is God rewarding them? If you believe that the real goal and reward is eternal life in heaven, no, rich people are not being “rewarded” for their evil.

Job learned all these lessons and never lost his faith. He became a more humble and compassionate man.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:God was aware of Job’s suffering. Job knew God knew.God told Satan. Satan predicted Job would curse God. Job said with the good comes the bad. Both must be accepted.

God set limits to the trials Job was afflicted with. God was and is in charge.

God has reasons for our trials and tests that we should use as opportunities for personal growth. Not to become bitter or vengeful. Even Christ learned from His sufferings.

Humans like everything explained in a neat little package. They want the ending to be happy and make sense. Often things do not. We must understand not everything will make sense or be explained. That makes a lot of people unhappy and mad at God. I am a person who has learned that is part of life and trusting God.

Job trusted God even when things were awful. He didn’t say: my life is a nightmare. Where’s my reward? Where’s my prosperity for my faith, God? I am being shafted! I was promised heaven on earth. Satan thought Job’s faith was connection to his prosperity and blessings and riches. But Job’s faith was not dependent on that, at all. At his low point of anguish and bewilderment, Job declares his heartfelt trust in God. “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth.... I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself” (vv. 25–27

God ultimately will reworn punish good and evil. Long term, the goal of Christians should not be riches and reward on earth. If you don’t get your reward on earth, as a Christian- are you mad at God? You shouldn’t be, because your goal is eternal life with God in Heaven. If evil jerks live lives of fabulous wealth and privilege- is God rewarding them? If you believe that the real goal and reward is eternal life in heaven, no, rich people are not being “rewarded” for their evil.

Job learned all these lessons and never lost his faith. He became a more humble and compassionate man.

God gives implicit permission for Satan to kill all of Job's children. He was not seeking riches.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God was aware of Job’s suffering. Job knew God knew.God told Satan. Satan predicted Job would curse God. Job said with the good comes the bad. Both must be accepted.

God set limits to the trials Job was afflicted with. God was and is in charge.

God has reasons for our trials and tests that we should use as opportunities for personal growth. Not to become bitter or vengeful. Even Christ learned from His sufferings.

Humans like everything explained in a neat little package. They want the ending to be happy and make sense. Often things do not. We must understand not everything will make sense or be explained. That makes a lot of people unhappy and mad at God. I am a person who has learned that is part of life and trusting God.

Job trusted God even when things were awful. He didn’t say: my life is a nightmare. Where’s my reward? Where’s my prosperity for my faith, God? I am being shafted! I was promised heaven on earth. Satan thought Job’s faith was connection to his prosperity and blessings and riches. But Job’s faith was not dependent on that, at all. At his low point of anguish and bewilderment, Job declares his heartfelt trust in God. “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth.... I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself” (vv. 25–27

God ultimately will reworn punish good and evil. Long term, the goal of Christians should not be riches and reward on earth. If you don’t get your reward on earth, as a Christian- are you mad at God? You shouldn’t be, because your goal is eternal life with God in Heaven. If evil jerks live lives of fabulous wealth and privilege- is God rewarding them? If you believe that the real goal and reward is eternal life in heaven, no, rich people are not being “rewarded” for their evil.

Job learned all these lessons and never lost his faith. He became a more humble and compassionate man.

God gives implicit permission for Satan to kill all of Job's children. He was not seeking riches.

And he never lost faith. He still believed in God.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God was aware of Job’s suffering. Job knew God knew.God told Satan. Satan predicted Job would curse God. Job said with the good comes the bad. Both must be accepted.

God set limits to the trials Job was afflicted with. God was and is in charge.

God has reasons for our trials and tests that we should use as opportunities for personal growth. Not to become bitter or vengeful. Even Christ learned from His sufferings.

Humans like everything explained in a neat little package. They want the ending to be happy and make sense. Often things do not. We must understand not everything will make sense or be explained. That makes a lot of people unhappy and mad at God. I am a person who has learned that is part of life and trusting God.

Job trusted God even when things were awful. He didn’t say: my life is a nightmare. Where’s my reward? Where’s my prosperity for my faith, God? I am being shafted! I was promised heaven on earth. Satan thought Job’s faith was connection to his prosperity and blessings and riches. But Job’s faith was not dependent on that, at all. At his low point of anguish and bewilderment, Job declares his heartfelt trust in God. “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth.... I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself” (vv. 25–27

God ultimately will reworn punish good and evil. Long term, the goal of Christians should not be riches and reward on earth. If you don’t get your reward on earth, as a Christian- are you mad at God? You shouldn’t be, because your goal is eternal life with God in Heaven. If evil jerks live lives of fabulous wealth and privilege- is God rewarding them? If you believe that the real goal and reward is eternal life in heaven, no, rich people are not being “rewarded” for their evil.

Job learned all these lessons and never lost his faith. He became a more humble and compassionate man.

God gives implicit permission for Satan to kill all of Job's children. He was not seeking riches.

And he never lost faith. He still believed in God.

And the moral of this story is supposed to be that God isn't responsible for suffering? To me I honestly would rather believe in no God than in the Good of job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God was aware of Job’s suffering. Job knew God knew.God told Satan. Satan predicted Job would curse God. Job said with the good comes the bad. Both must be accepted.

God set limits to the trials Job was afflicted with. God was and is in charge.

God has reasons for our trials and tests that we should use as opportunities for personal growth. Not to become bitter or vengeful. Even Christ learned from His sufferings.

Humans like everything explained in a neat little package. They want the ending to be happy and make sense. Often things do not. We must understand not everything will make sense or be explained. That makes a lot of people unhappy and mad at God. I am a person who has learned that is part of life and trusting God.

Job trusted God even when things were awful. He didn’t say: my life is a nightmare. Where’s my reward? Where’s my prosperity for my faith, God? I am being shafted! I was promised heaven on earth. Satan thought Job’s faith was connection to his prosperity and blessings and riches. But Job’s faith was not dependent on that, at all. At his low point of anguish and bewilderment, Job declares his heartfelt trust in God. “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth.... I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself” (vv. 25–27

God ultimately will reworn punish good and evil. Long term, the goal of Christians should not be riches and reward on earth. If you don’t get your reward on earth, as a Christian- are you mad at God? You shouldn’t be, because your goal is eternal life with God in Heaven. If evil jerks live lives of fabulous wealth and privilege- is God rewarding them? If you believe that the real goal and reward is eternal life in heaven, no, rich people are not being “rewarded” for their evil.

Job learned all these lessons and never lost his faith. He became a more humble and compassionate man.

God gives implicit permission for Satan to kill all of Job's children. He was not seeking riches.

And he never lost faith. He still believed in God.

And the moral of this story is supposed to be that God isn't responsible for suffering? To me I honestly would rather believe in no God than in the Good of job.

Aren’t you already an atheistic? Haven’t you already made a decision? Job made a decision also. You can be outraged for him, or learn from him. If you are an atheist though, you don’t believe God and Job and Satan ever had a problem so it’s easy for you. You can definitely not worry about some guy who never existed. And God- who you believe doesn’t exist- doing imaginary wrongs to a man you believe is just a story.

[Anonymous]

Job is a man trying to make sense of his world. Of the seemingly random unfairness of the horrible trials he suffers. The Bible is much more about man’s attempt to explain his world than about anything God does to us. When you learn to read the Bible (or any ancient text) with an awareness of time, politics, religion, and location, you begin to truly understand the meaning. You learn “how to take the Bible seriously, but not literally” (there is a really good book with that title that I read in seminary).

Job does have a powerful message. But it has nothing to do with God’s responsibility towards mankind. It isn’t about God rewarding the good or punishing the bad. We were created by our creator with free will. As spiritual beings occupying human bodies, we continually create our reality. We were, after all, made in God’s image. We are creators. The lessons in Job are of perseverance, trust, and acceptance. We learn to release expectations and attachments. We learn to continue to push through struggles even when life seems so unfair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God was aware of Job’s suffering. Job knew God knew.God told Satan. Satan predicted Job would curse God. Job said with the good comes the bad. Both must be accepted.

God set limits to the trials Job was afflicted with. God was and is in charge.

God has reasons for our trials and tests that we should use as opportunities for personal growth. Not to become bitter or vengeful. Even Christ learned from His sufferings.

Humans like everything explained in a neat little package. They want the ending to be happy and make sense. Often things do not. We must understand not everything will make sense or be explained. That makes a lot of people unhappy and mad at God. I am a person who has learned that is part of life and trusting God.

Job trusted God even when things were awful. He didn’t say: my life is a nightmare. Where’s my reward? Where’s my prosperity for my faith, God? I am being shafted! I was promised heaven on earth. Satan thought Job’s faith was connection to his prosperity and blessings and riches. But Job’s faith was not dependent on that, at all. At his low point of anguish and bewilderment, Job declares his heartfelt trust in God. “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth.... I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself” (vv. 25–27

God ultimately will reworn punish good and evil. Long term, the goal of Christians should not be riches and reward on earth. If you don’t get your reward on earth, as a Christian- are you mad at God? You shouldn’t be, because your goal is eternal life with God in Heaven. If evil jerks live lives of fabulous wealth and privilege- is God rewarding them? If you believe that the real goal and reward is eternal life in heaven, no, rich people are not being “rewarded” for their evil.

Job learned all these lessons and never lost his faith. He became a more humble and compassionate man.

God gives implicit permission for Satan to kill all of Job's children. He was not seeking riches.

And he never lost faith. He still believed in God.

And the moral of this story is supposed to be that God isn't responsible for suffering? To me I honestly would rather believe in no God than in the Good of job.

Aren’t you already an atheistic? Haven’t you already made a decision? Job made a decision also. You can be outraged for him, or learn from him. If you are an atheist though, you don’t believe God and Job and Satan ever had a problem so it’s easy for you. You can definitely not worry about some guy who never existed. And God- who you believe doesn’t exist- doing imaginary wrongs to a man you believe is just a story.

Right -- this is the kind of reasoning that makes people atheist but is not the kind of thing people worry about once they become atheist. But I think OP was trying to understand it from a believers point of view.

So, from a believer's point of view, is the moral of the story that God is not responsible for suffering?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that if you don’t believe in the Christian God, it’s pointless to work yourself up about the Bible. You aren’t going to change the mind of JW’s, and they aren’t going to change your mind.

I’d just not answer the door or tell them to move on.

I mean of course. But I spent more of my life as a Catholic than not and have spent the rest of it greatly interested in religious theory. I also spent a good amount of time in my teens arguing about Job as a believing Christian.

So just wondering about people's thoughts. I know everyone is afraid of the atheists but I'm a different cut than the usual one here.

I certainly am not going to change the JWs mind, was more just wondering if this was something less intense versions of Christianity were also using as a tool to combat this particular concern.

How could you ever think Job was a Christian? You had CCD/Religious Ed, right? Job as a Jew is pretty much ground level Catholic religious education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that if you don’t believe in the Christian God, it’s pointless to work yourself up about the Bible. You aren’t going to change the mind of JW’s, and they aren’t going to change your mind.

I’d just not answer the door or tell them to move on.

I mean of course. But I spent more of my life as a Catholic than not and have spent the rest of it greatly interested in religious theory. I also spent a good amount of time in my teens arguing about Job as a believing Christian.

So just wondering about people's thoughts. I know everyone is afraid of the atheists but I'm a different cut than the usual one here.

I certainly am not going to change the JWs mind, was more just wondering if this was something less intense versions of Christianity were also using as a tool to combat this particular concern.

How could you ever think Job was a Christian? You had CCD/Religious Ed, right? Job as a Jew is pretty much ground level Catholic religious education.

You misunderstood my post. I said I spent a good amount of time in my teens when I was a believing and practicing Cathloic (christian) myself. Not that Job was christian.

I'm surprised that people wonder why I would wonder about these things. I have always found religion to be a fascinating and thought provoking topic. I came to the conclusion I was wrong once and I'm not so egotistical to think I might not change my mind again. But I have always, as a believer, as a questioner and as a non believer enjoyed discussing theology and religious doctrine. Despite not believing in God I am constantly thinking about the world, why were here, the meaning of it all, morality, etc.

I'm not trying to subtlety convert anyone or anything at all. I have no problem with religion. I think were all just trying to make sense of our lives and the world and seeing what feels right to us. My intentions are seriously not antagonistic or nefarious.