Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door yesterday citing book of Job

[Anonymous]

Literalist/fundamentalist Christians give pretty much equal weight to the “Old” and New Testaments. Literalists/fundamentalists are a minority, but congrats, you hit the jackpot with the JWs.

Most Christians emphasize that the New Testament represents a new covenant between God and man, and also different rules (no dietary rules, for example).

I’d be interested in hearing a Jewish POV.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:God was aware of Job’s suffering. Job knew God knew.God told Satan. Satan predicted Job would curse God. Job said with the good comes the bad. Both must be accepted.

God set limits to the trials Job was afflicted with. God was and is in charge.

God has reasons for our trials and tests that we should use as opportunities for personal growth. Not to become bitter or vengeful. Even Christ learned from His sufferings.

Humans like everything explained in a neat little package. They want the ending to be happy and make sense. Often things do not. We must understand not everything will make sense or be explained. That makes a lot of people unhappy and mad at God. I am a person who has learned that is part of life and trusting God.

Job trusted God even when things were awful. He didn’t say: my life is a nightmare. Where’s my reward? Where’s my prosperity for my faith, God? I am being shafted! I was promised heaven on earth. Satan thought Job’s faith was connection to his prosperity and blessings and riches. But Job’s faith was not dependent on that, at all. At his low point of anguish and bewilderment, Job declares his heartfelt trust in God. “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth.... I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself” (vv. 25–27

God ultimately will reworn punish good and evil. Long term, the goal of Christians should not be riches and reward on earth. If you don’t get your reward on earth, as a Christian- are you mad at God? You shouldn’t be, because your goal is eternal life with God in Heaven. If evil jerks live lives of fabulous wealth and privilege- is God rewarding them? If you believe that the real goal and reward is eternal life in heaven, no, rich people are not being “rewarded” for their evil.

Job learned all these lessons and never lost his faith. He became a more humble and compassionate man.

God gives implicit permission for Satan to kill all of Job's children. He was not seeking riches.

And he never lost faith. He still believed in God.

And the moral of this story is supposed to be that God isn't responsible for suffering? To me I honestly would rather believe in no God than in the Good of job.

Aren’t you already an atheistic? Haven’t you already made a decision? Job made a decision also. You can be outraged for him, or learn from him. If you are an atheist though, you don’t believe God and Job and Satan ever had a problem so it’s easy for you. You can definitely not worry about some guy who never existed. And God- who you believe doesn’t exist- doing imaginary wrongs to a man you believe is just a story.

Right -- this is the kind of reasoning that makes people atheist but is not the kind of thing people worry about once they become atheist. But I think OP was trying to understand it from a believers point of view.

So, from a believer's point of view, is the moral of the story that God is not responsible for suffering?

Why does an atheist care about what believers think about Job?

If you are wanting to parse Job and marvel at his suffering and blame God, fine. But don’t expect people to explain it to you. You don’t care what they think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God was aware of Job’s suffering. Job knew God knew.God told Satan. Satan predicted Job would curse God. Job said with the good comes the bad. Both must be accepted.

God set limits to the trials Job was afflicted with. God was and is in charge.

God has reasons for our trials and tests that we should use as opportunities for personal growth. Not to become bitter or vengeful. Even Christ learned from His sufferings.

Humans like everything explained in a neat little package. They want the ending to be happy and make sense. Often things do not. We must understand not everything will make sense or be explained. That makes a lot of people unhappy and mad at God. I am a person who has learned that is part of life and trusting God.

Job trusted God even when things were awful. He didn’t say: my life is a nightmare. Where’s my reward? Where’s my prosperity for my faith, God? I am being shafted! I was promised heaven on earth. Satan thought Job’s faith was connection to his prosperity and blessings and riches. But Job’s faith was not dependent on that, at all. At his low point of anguish and bewilderment, Job declares his heartfelt trust in God. “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth.... I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself” (vv. 25–27

God ultimately will reworn punish good and evil. Long term, the goal of Christians should not be riches and reward on earth. If you don’t get your reward on earth, as a Christian- are you mad at God? You shouldn’t be, because your goal is eternal life with God in Heaven. If evil jerks live lives of fabulous wealth and privilege- is God rewarding them? If you believe that the real goal and reward is eternal life in heaven, no, rich people are not being “rewarded” for their evil.

Job learned all these lessons and never lost his faith. He became a more humble and compassionate man.

God gives implicit permission for Satan to kill all of Job's children. He was not seeking riches.

And he never lost faith. He still believed in God.

And the moral of this story is supposed to be that God isn't responsible for suffering? To me I honestly would rather believe in no God than in the Good of job.

Aren’t you already an atheistic? Haven’t you already made a decision? Job made a decision also. You can be outraged for him, or learn from him. If you are an atheist though, you don’t believe God and Job and Satan ever had a problem so it’s easy for you. You can definitely not worry about some guy who never existed. And God- who you believe doesn’t exist- doing imaginary wrongs to a man you believe is just a story.

Right -- this is the kind of reasoning that makes people atheist but is not the kind of thing people worry about once they become atheist. But I think OP was trying to understand it from a believers point of view.

So, from a believer's point of view, is the moral of the story that God is not responsible for suffering?

Why does an atheist care about what believers think about Job?

If you are wanting to parse Job and marvel at his suffering and blame God, fine. But don’t expect people to explain it to you. You don’t care what they think.

That is simply untrue. OP here. I have spent a lot of time thinking about job. More time when I was a devout catholic than any other. I have spent a lifetime studying religion and how humans frame their purpose on this earth. How they frame morality and goodness.

You assume I think people who are religious are silly and want to shoot down their beliefs by finding the logical flaw or something. I do not. It is a story that has always troubled me, to the point where it made me start to doubt. I amm genuinely interested in what people think about this who believe in the bible.

But I feel like the suspicions about my intentions run too deep here to have a meaningful conversation so I haven't been continuing the thread.

[Anonymous]

I totally get where you’re coming from OP. I grew up in an evangelical church and we were encouraged to take this story literally. I hated the idea of god and Satan turning random people’s lives into games or wagers. And the idea that his family were just supporting characters and replaceable never felt right. But whenever I asked questions I was spoken to the way people here are talking to you. No one can really answer the question without making god seem at least somewhat uncaring, so it got turned around on me and why was I questioning the Bible so much. At best, the people I’d discuss it with would exempt the story from the literal section of the Bible and tell me it’s a lesson and not a history. Lots of deflection when there weren’t great answers. I never saw it as a happy story nor job as an aspirational character. The whole thing just made me sad.

[Anonymous]

OP, I think a lot of non-literalists (e g., mainline Protestants) see Job as an allegory, not as a real guy who was tortured by God. The allegory is about how being a model member of the faith, as Job was, does not guarantee you a problem-free life. And the allegory is also about having faith despite bad events. In other words, it was an early attempt to understand why bad things happen to good people. God is not a bean counter who guarantees you a great life if you just tick all the boxes.

Would be interested in a Jewish pov. In the New Testament,

There are a couple of aggressive atheists who post “logical hole” questions on a weekly basis, and on an anonymous forum we can’t tell who’s who. That’s probably why you’re not getting more responses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I think a lot of non-literalists (e g., mainline Protestants) see Job as an allegory, not as a real guy who was tortured by God. The allegory is about how being a model member of the faith, as Job was, does not guarantee you a problem-free life. And the allegory is also about having faith despite bad events. In other words, it was an early attempt to understand why bad things happen to good people. God is not a bean counter who guarantees you a great life if you just tick all the boxes.

Would be interested in a Jewish pov. In the New Testament,

There are a couple of aggressive atheists who post “logical hole” questions on a weekly basis, and on an anonymous forum we can’t tell who’s who. That’s probably why you’re not getting more responses.

Yes I know. I thought by being open about my history and beliefs in my OP I would stave off some of that suspicion but I do understand the skepticism considering the aggressive nature of a lot of the atheists that post here.