Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great episode - I actually laughed out loud several times. The blood discussion was hilarious. And the scenery - breathtaking. One reason I love this show!

I think the brothers really were trying to tank the deal, but Mattson’s big bump was too much to refuse. They weren’t expecting that.

Greg - cringeworthy!! “The Quad Squad.”

Shiv got the deal done.

He liked her, reminded him of her father “not judge”.

He followed all of her advice;
Kept ebba-don’t fire her/stop sending blood
Trust Gerri
Carolina is good
Nah- don’t get rid of Tom
Just keep offering more money.

They were in on it which is why he had her send a photo of the brothers on the plane.

How do we know he hasn’t fired Ebba? Wouldn’t keeping Carolina off the kill list suggest he’s getting rid of Ebba?

Or he's going to promote Ebba to keep her quiet. Or pay her off when/if they close the deal with Waystar. Ebba straight up told Shiv that she's either going to write a book about her experience with Matsson or get paid off. It seemed like a joke at the time but after Matsson explained the situation, it looks less like one.

The deal hasn't happened yet, so even people on the kill list still have jobs, and some of them might keep them.

Shiv's advice to Matsson was to leave Ebba alone -- don't fire her, don't keep harassing her, just leave her be. And then Shiv explained that she, Karolina, and Gerri could help him with the problem. I think the clear message of the last scene of the episode was that Matsson was following Shiv's advice, at least for now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Mattson wanted to see their faces because he had outmaneuvered them. Guys like him don’t care about the money, they care about winning. As per usual, Kendall and Rome tried to tank the deal so ham-handedly that Mattson saw it coming a mile away. By calling Frank directly, the brothers couldn’t suppress the offer and he made it so high that the board will almost have to approve. So, it’s kind of hilarious that they finally did a good job, but for all the wrong reasons? It will be interesting what kind of poison pills Kendall tries to dream up now. He really doesn’t want to lose control of Waystar because he knows he’ll never build anything on his own (and he’s right about Mattson not understanding the company).

And Shiv helped Matsson accomplish the deal because she thought that's what they were supposed to do -- so she telegraphed to him exactly what the plan was for him to get the deal including ACN accomplished, which was the price he had offered previously PLUS a big bump.

It's funny because the boys asked one another if she could dance before deciding to leave her out of the decision to tank the deal, figuring that she couldn't bluff. She basically got the deal accomplished by being straight and not bluffing at all. Mind you, I think Shiv probably COULD have bluffed. But her strengths do seem to be in negotiating with people and telling them some version of the truth, even if it's not the whole truth (remember she got the lady not to testify against ACN or whatever - cruises??).

Will Matsson give Shiv control over ACN? He's probably just playing some other cruel game with her.

When Roman told Matsson he hated him and Matsson said he'd just made a big mistake, I thought he said that because he'd get reported to SEC or some other bad deal/company fallout. But maybe he meant it as in, you've shown me your true feelings and your vulnerability, and now I will use that to crush you. (Will Matsson use the boys desire not to sell to him to drive the price down -- or the boys will somehow tank it down to prevent the sale, and then Matsson will still buy but at a lower price?)

I wonder whether Matsson wanted the family there with him right after the death because his own father's death was defining for him and he wanted to watch them suffer over the death on his own turf as a power move? He seems like he really enjoys watching others in pain. I'm not sure Shiv knows what she's getting into. Roman knows him the best and his dissection of Matsson's actions after the father's death was ON POINT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great episode - I actually laughed out loud several times. The blood discussion was hilarious. And the scenery - breathtaking. One reason I love this show!

I think the brothers really were trying to tank the deal, but Mattson’s big bump was too much to refuse. They weren’t expecting that.

Greg - cringeworthy!! “The Quad Squad.”

Shiv got the deal done.

He liked her, reminded him of her father “not judge”.

He followed all of her advice;
Kept ebba-don’t fire her/stop sending blood
Trust Gerri
Carolina is good
Nah- don’t get rid of Tom
Just keep offering more money.

They were in on it which is why he had her send a photo of the brothers on the plane.

How do we know he hasn’t fired Ebba? Wouldn’t keeping Carolina off the kill list suggest he’s getting rid of Ebba?

If he did, he’s the stupidest mofo on the planet, and Ebba is about to become a very rich woman.

I thought the whole story about Ebba and the blood was BS, just something Mattson made up to test Shiv.

No…Mattson seems like a better business person than the Roy brothers but he’s an awful narcissist and didn’t seem to have awareness of what’s normal or not. He was so awkward in all his interactions. They showed nothing to indicate he was lying in that meeting. He seemed nuts, doing coke, talking about sending someone blood. Shiv isn’t a genius but she handled that properly by acting like it was no big deal. And she is right that Geri and Carolina have saved Logan’s butt more than once so would be helpful to Mattson. She also saved Tom. I guess she’s opening that door now that she’s really pregnant and he’s the dad.

[Anonymous]

I gotta say this season is really falling flat for me. The only good scene last night was Shiv and Mattson. The writing for Tom and Greg, who are usually my favorite characters, is so bad this season. I’m bored. I enjoyed the scenery. I laughed when they first showed the gondola. Other than that I’m not into it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I gotta say this season is really falling flat for me. The only good scene last night was Shiv and Mattson. The writing for Tom and Greg, who are usually my favorite characters, is so bad this season. I’m bored. I enjoyed the scenery. I laughed when they first showed the gondola. Other than that I’m not into it.

Ugh I agree. Logan’s death episode was so good and gripping and last night was a bit boring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I gotta say this season is really falling flat for me. The only good scene last night was Shiv and Mattson. The writing for Tom and Greg, who are usually my favorite characters, is so bad this season. I’m bored. I enjoyed the scenery. I laughed when they first showed the gondola. Other than that I’m not into it.

You were bored by the Shiv/Tom interaction over Tom's sneakers? You were bored by Roman telling Matsson he hated him?

Sure, okay. You should watch something else then. This show is not for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I gotta say this season is really falling flat for me. The only good scene last night was Shiv and Mattson. The writing for Tom and Greg, who are usually my favorite characters, is so bad this season. I’m bored. I enjoyed the scenery. I laughed when they first showed the gondola. Other than that I’m not into it.

You were bored by the Shiv/Tom interaction over Tom's sneakers? You were bored by Roman telling Matsson he hated him?

Sure, okay. You should watch something else then. This show is not for you.

I love this show. I’m doing a rewatch and I guess some of it feels a bit played out. Shiv asserting her dominance. Roman spewing nonsense that sort of sticks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I gotta say this season is really falling flat for me. The only good scene last night was Shiv and Mattson. The writing for Tom and Greg, who are usually my favorite characters, is so bad this season. I’m bored. I enjoyed the scenery. I laughed when they first showed the gondola. Other than that I’m not into it.

You were bored by the Shiv/Tom interaction over Tom's sneakers? You were bored by Roman telling Matsson he hated him?

Sure, okay. You should watch something else then. This show is not for you.

I love this show. I’m doing a rewatch and I guess some of it feels a bit played out. Shiv asserting her dominance. Roman spewing nonsense that sort of sticks.

You thought Roman was spewing nonsense? I thought he was being absolutely honest because he had finally been pushed too far.

I'm honestly not sure he actually accomplished anything, given that it seems like Matsson was going to bump the price whatever the boys did. Now Roman thinks he bumped the price because of him, but really it was Shiv. Matsson is playing with them and skewering them like tiny insects, except for some reason he has given Shiv power over him. He is strange.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This episode felt like a return to the show before Logan died. Mixed feelings about that -- the business stuff feels kind of boring to me, though I also felt this episode was funnier than recent ones.

It feels like Shiv is in a power position suddenly, and especially if the deal goes through.

I still am really unclear of what is going on with Kendall and Roman. Are they still trying to tank this deal? Or are they won over by the 192b offer? Or are they just glad Madsen decided to up the deal rather than go to the board with Roman trying to pull out of the deal (which I do think would violate some fiduciary duties to the shareholders but I'm not totally clear on the legalities of the whole thing).

And anyway, I don't understand what is motivating Kendall at all. I guess he wants to run Waystar maybe? Doesn't know what else he'd do with himself? As he said, the are already rich, so getting more rich from the Gojo deal is only useful if there is something specific they want to do with the money (like buy Pierce), but I don't really get the sense he wants to do that.

Kendall and Roman don't really seem to want to run anything, not really. They just like being in charge (and yet at the same time seem deeply uncomfortable wielding power and hide behind like 40 layers of ironic distance to avoid looking like they care about anything or don't know anything -- just incredibly weak sauce). Shiv comes off as genuinely interested in business, at least in this episode, but she was a mess the last time she had any power.

I'd like to say it's unrealistic that people this useless might run things as important as media empires, but.... it's probably not. Even Madsen is a messed up weirdo and I think that's probably true in real life. I mean, look at Bezos or Musk -- those guys are messed up weirdos too.

Anyway. Some post show musings.

You hit the nail on the head. The truest thing said in this episode was Matson telling Kendall and Roman, "Your father was a prick, but at least he knew what the ____ he wanted."

The only thing motivating Kendall is to outdo his father, even in death. But I don't think Kendall believes he can do that without still being attached to Waystar.

Roman most certainly did not pre-grieve and let it all out on the mountain.

This was an episode rich with quips that we will be referencing for ages to come. So good.

[Anonymous]

Anyone have a read on Shiv's drinking during the episode? It felt emphasized in the scene with Matsson and also on the plane home when everyone was having champagne. Like they made a point of showing her taking drinks and tossing her head back. Curious if people thought was really drinking or making it look like she was, and if she was drinking, if that has any bearing on her feelings about her pregnancy. I'm not sure what to make of it.

I thought it was interesting in the scene with Matsson when offers her the cocaine and she acts interested but then the conversation shifts and she never has any. It made me think if she was just skillfully making it look like she was partaking in alcohol/drugs by holding alcohol, saying yes to things offered, even appearing to take sips of things, but actually managing to avoid it somehow. I think that would be pretty hard in that environment but Shiv was doing a good job generally of playing it cool when her brothers, Tom, and the grays were not doing such a good job. Maybe she's just better at this stuff because of the time she spent in politics and outside of Waystar. She's less of a bubble baby than most of them are.

[Anonymous]

When Shiv took their picture, the boys didn’t look happy. Does this reveal to Mattson they were truly trying to kill the deal?

After the debacle on the mountaintop Mattson knew that a) the siblings are not all on the same page; and b) Roman, at least does not want to sell, and Kendall is just a mess. Both Roman and Kendall are operating from a place of emotion. So he's screwing them over because he's kind of a psycho. Mattson knows that Roman and Kendall will find this sale a hollow victory, but that they won't have a choice but to take the deal.

I think what tanks this deal is that ATN is now a defacto comms shop for the Republican nominee for president. That's a variable that Mattson didn't know and doesn't understand. There will be a lot of pressure to hold ATN back from the deal in the end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This episode felt like a return to the show before Logan died. Mixed feelings about that -- the business stuff feels kind of boring to me, though I also felt this episode was funnier than recent ones.

It feels like Shiv is in a power position suddenly, and especially if the deal goes through.

I still am really unclear of what is going on with Kendall and Roman. Are they still trying to tank this deal? Or are they won over by the 192b offer? Or are they just glad Madsen decided to up the deal rather than go to the board with Roman trying to pull out of the deal (which I do think would violate some fiduciary duties to the shareholders but I'm not totally clear on the legalities of the whole thing).

And anyway, I don't understand what is motivating Kendall at all. I guess he wants to run Waystar maybe? Doesn't know what else he'd do with himself? As he said, the are already rich, so getting more rich from the Gojo deal is only useful if there is something specific they want to do with the money (like buy Pierce), but I don't really get the sense he wants to do that.

Kendall and Roman don't really seem to want to run anything, not really. They just like being in charge (and yet at the same time seem deeply uncomfortable wielding power and hide behind like 40 layers of ironic distance to avoid looking like they care about anything or don't know anything -- just incredibly weak sauce). Shiv comes off as genuinely interested in business, at least in this episode, but she was a mess the last time she had any power.

I'd like to say it's unrealistic that people this useless might run things as important as media empires, but.... it's probably not. Even Madsen is a messed up weirdo and I think that's probably true in real life. I mean, look at Bezos or Musk -- those guys are messed up weirdos too.

Anyway. Some post show musings.

You hit the nail on the head. The truest thing said in this episode was Matson telling Kendall and Roman, "Your father was a prick, but at least he knew what the ____ he wanted."

The only thing motivating Kendall is to outdo his father, even in death. But I don't think Kendall believes he can do that without still being attached to Waystar.

Roman most certainly did not pre-grieve and let it all out on the mountain.

This was an episode rich with quips that we will be referencing for ages to come. So good.

And to contrast that, he told Shiv that he liked her, that she reminded him of her father who also wasn't "judgey".

[Anonymous]

Anyone notice that Kendall was back on his old BS on the ride in with the rap playing, same as he was doing when he was running things for his dad (and screwing things up)?

Him wanting to tank such a pretty great deal to retain control over everything seems like terrible business instincts. Seems like they really should get out while they can or the other parts of the company will lose value. But he wants to run it to prove he can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great episode - I actually laughed out loud several times. The blood discussion was hilarious. And the scenery - breathtaking. One reason I love this show!

I think the brothers really were trying to tank the deal, but Mattson’s big bump was too much to refuse. They weren’t expecting that.

Greg - cringeworthy!! “The Quad Squad.”

Shiv got the deal done.

He liked her, reminded him of her father “not judge”.

He followed all of her advice;
Kept ebba-don’t fire her/stop sending blood
Trust Gerri
Carolina is good
Nah- don’t get rid of Tom
Just keep offering more money.

They were in on it which is why he had her send a photo of the brothers on the plane.

How do we know he hasn’t fired Ebba? Wouldn’t keeping Carolina off the kill list suggest he’s getting rid of Ebba?

Or he's going to promote Ebba to keep her quiet. Or pay her off when/if they close the deal with Waystar. Ebba straight up told Shiv that she's either going to write a book about her experience with Matsson or get paid off. It seemed like a joke at the time but after Matsson explained the situation, it looks less like one.

The deal hasn't happened yet, so even people on the kill list still have jobs, and some of them might keep them.

Shiv's advice to Matsson was to leave Ebba alone -- don't fire her, don't keep harassing her, just leave her be. And then Shiv explained that she, Karolina, and Gerri could help him with the problem. I think the clear message of the last scene of the episode was that Matsson was following Shiv's advice, at least for now.

And right in front of Matsson!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I gotta say this season is really falling flat for me. The only good scene last night was Shiv and Mattson. The writing for Tom and Greg, who are usually my favorite characters, is so bad this season. I’m bored. I enjoyed the scenery. I laughed when they first showed the gondola. Other than that I’m not into it.

You were bored by the Shiv/Tom interaction over Tom's sneakers? You were bored by Roman telling Matsson he hated him?

Sure, okay. You should watch something else then. This show is not for you.

I love this show. I’m doing a rewatch and I guess some of it feels a bit played out. Shiv asserting her dominance. Roman spewing nonsense that sort of sticks.

You thought Roman was spewing nonsense? I thought he was being absolutely honest because he had finally been pushed too far.

I'm honestly not sure he actually accomplished anything, given that it seems like Matsson was going to bump the price whatever the boys did. Now Roman thinks he bumped the price because of him, but really it was Shiv. Matsson is playing with them and skewering them like tiny insects, except for some reason he has given Shiv power over him. He is strange.

I agree Matsson is playing with them. I think summoning them to Norway right after Logan died was 100% a power play in the hopes of getting insight into them at a time when they might be vulnerable, and also putting them on his turf where he controls everyone (who is there, where they stay, what they do, etc.) so he can exercise maximum control. It really felt like he was pushing and pushing specifically to get an outburst like Roman's on the mountain, and when he got it he was satisfied and could proceed with the plan he had all along.

I also sense he's working hard to manipulate disagreement between the siblings. First he very openly excludes Shiv from his first meeting with the brothers, but later engages her in conversation intended to make himself look somewhat weak and vulnerable (I do think he's telling the truth about Ebba but I also think he's using that situation to make Shiv feel like she has the upper hand both with Matsson AND with her brothers), and then essentially asking her for help.

I do think the kids will figure out he's doing this at some point but I don't know if they'll be able to unite and counter, or if it will successfully drive them apart. I really do not know what is going to happen as far as the deal, the kids' futures with the company, or the kids' relationships with each other. I am someone who can usually read where television shows are going pretty easily (too easily) and this season of Succession is more unpredictable than most. Whether that's good or bad will depend on how they wrap it up.