Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both
That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.
Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.
And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).
While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.
True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)
Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.
This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.
This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.
They are running a couple of buses whether there are 15 kids on each or 25 kids, that cost is basically $300,000 a year either way.
No one has made a good argument for why THIS program is not worth it, compared to all of the other programs Arlington provides for students outside of the basic neighborhood school classroom. We invest way more in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. There seems to be a sense that only financially "elite" students can access TJHSST, when the real elite in Arlington are not in APS at all (there are more than 29,000 kids aged 5-18 in Arlington, but fewer than 26,000 enrolled in APS K-12).
Offering a TJ-like environment is not a requirement, and no student has a right to it. If a family really cares about TJ, they can move to FCPS (most of the neighborhoods in Fairfax are less expensive than Arlington, so cost isn’t a barrier there). All public school systems are required to provide FAPE to students with special needs - it’s not optional because students have a right to FAPE, whether you think they are worth it or not,
Also, it is really gross that you apparently view people as more or less worthy depending on their aptitude for math and science.
Sorry, I didn't think I had to spell it out, but I guess I do if people are determined to read this negatively.
All students have the right to a free and appropriate public education. People are complaining about the "extra" cost of TJ compared to what it would cost to educate those students in APS schools. APS schools do not provide courses as challenging as those at TJHSST, nor do they provide the same peer group or extracurricular activities. We invest way more than average in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. Why shouldn't we invest in students with high academic potential--aren't they also entitled to an education that is appropriately challenging, if that is not what is provided in a regular classroom? And if a student lives in Arlington, doesn't Arlington schools have to provide access to an appropriate education, even if the mechanism is busing them to a governor's school located in the next county?
BTW, APS isn't required to provide Montessori, or busing to choice schools, or high school marching band, or lots of other things that are definitively not part of providing a free and appropriate education. But we do.
Are you seriously suggesting that APS is responsible for providing a certain peer group and certain extracurricular activities? For just the best and brightest math and science students? or for all students? What about our best and brightest artists and musicians? Are they getting a "free and appropriate public education" in Arlington? Or are only the handful of students who actually get admitted to TJ the ones who are entitled to a different peer group and extracurricular activities? Would APS be expected to provide those peers and activities if a school in a neighboring jurisdiction did not provide them; or are you saying we have to offer them because they are available at TJ?
If you believe APS fully provides what the students in every academic category need or deserve, you are a fool. Nobody is entitled to the perfect education and social experience. They are entitled to a free, quality public education. Period. If APS isn't providing a good enough education, then parents advocate, vote, and may need to make some sacrifices and move to another district that will.
Several of our best and brightest artists and musicians go to Duke Ellington, but they have to pay tuition to DCPS and get their own transportation. Since we have the option for our best science and math kids to attend a governor's school through the public school system instead of making the parents jump through those hoops--and the obvious equity issues it raises--I think we should try and maintain it. And for the record, neither of my kids is TJHSST (or Ellington) material. I just think its incredibly stupid to have a resource like that available and not offer it. I don't understand why APS does so little to help identify and prepare kids to attend.
Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both
That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.
Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.
And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).
While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.
True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)
Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.
This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.
This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.
They are running a couple of buses whether there are 15 kids on each or 25 kids, that cost is basically $300,000 a year either way.
No one has made a good argument for why THIS program is not worth it, compared to all of the other programs Arlington provides for students outside of the basic neighborhood school classroom. We invest way more in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. There seems to be a sense that only financially "elite" students can access TJHSST, when the real elite in Arlington are not in APS at all (there are more than 29,000 kids aged 5-18 in Arlington, but fewer than 26,000 enrolled in APS K-12).
Offering a TJ-like environment is not a requirement, and no student has a right to it. If a family really cares about TJ, they can move to FCPS (most of the neighborhoods in Fairfax are less expensive than Arlington, so cost isn’t a barrier there). All public school systems are required to provide FAPE to students with special needs - it’s not optional because students have a right to FAPE, whether you think they are worth it or not,
Also, it is really gross that you apparently view people as more or less worthy depending on their aptitude for math and science.
Sorry, I didn't think I had to spell it out, but I guess I do if people are determined to read this negatively.
All students have the right to a free and appropriate public education. People are complaining about the "extra" cost of TJ compared to what it would cost to educate those students in APS schools. APS schools do not provide courses as challenging as those at TJHSST, nor do they provide the same peer group or extracurricular activities. We invest way more than average in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. Why shouldn't we invest in students with high academic potential--aren't they also entitled to an education that is appropriately challenging, if that is not what is provided in a regular classroom? And if a student lives in Arlington, doesn't Arlington schools have to provide access to an appropriate education, even if the mechanism is busing them to a governor's school located in the next county?
BTW, APS isn't required to provide Montessori, or busing to choice schools, or high school marching band, or lots of other things that are definitively not part of providing a free and appropriate education. But we do.
Are you seriously suggesting that APS is responsible for providing a certain peer group and certain extracurricular activities? For just the best and brightest math and science students? or for all students? What about our best and brightest artists and musicians? Are they getting a "free and appropriate public education" in Arlington? Or are only the handful of students who actually get admitted to TJ the ones who are entitled to a different peer group and extracurricular activities? Would APS be expected to provide those peers and activities if a school in a neighboring jurisdiction did not provide them; or are you saying we have to offer them because they are available at TJ?
If you believe APS fully provides what the students in every academic category need or deserve, you are a fool. Nobody is entitled to the perfect education and social experience. They are entitled to a free, quality public education. Period. If APS isn't providing a good enough education, then parents advocate, vote, and may need to make some sacrifices and move to another district that will.
Several of our best and brightest artists and musicians go to Duke Ellington, but they have to pay tuition to DCPS and get their own transportation. Since we have the option for our best science and math kids to attend a governor's school through the public school system instead of making the parents jump through those hoops--and the obvious equity issues it raises--I think we should try and maintain it. And for the record, neither of my kids is TJHSST (or Ellington) material. I just think its incredibly stupid to have a resource like that available and not offer it. I don't understand why APS does so little to help identify and prepare kids to attend.
It’s not like APS has extra money sitting around and is doing this to be spiteful. Allocating this money to TJ would come at the detriment of many other students. But I get it. You think they are less worthy because they aren’t what you believe are “our best science and math kids.” Gross.
Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both
That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.
Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.
And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).
While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.
True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)
Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.
This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.
This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.
They are running a couple of buses whether there are 15 kids on each or 25 kids, that cost is basically $300,000 a year either way.
No one has made a good argument for why THIS program is not worth it, compared to all of the other programs Arlington provides for students outside of the basic neighborhood school classroom. We invest way more in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. There seems to be a sense that only financially "elite" students can access TJHSST, when the real elite in Arlington are not in APS at all (there are more than 29,000 kids aged 5-18 in Arlington, but fewer than 26,000 enrolled in APS K-12).
Offering a TJ-like environment is not a requirement, and no student has a right to it. If a family really cares about TJ, they can move to FCPS (most of the neighborhoods in Fairfax are less expensive than Arlington, so cost isn’t a barrier there). All public school systems are required to provide FAPE to students with special needs - it’s not optional because students have a right to FAPE, whether you think they are worth it or not,
Also, it is really gross that you apparently view people as more or less worthy depending on their aptitude for math and science.
Sorry, I didn't think I had to spell it out, but I guess I do if people are determined to read this negatively.
All students have the right to a free and appropriate public education. People are complaining about the "extra" cost of TJ compared to what it would cost to educate those students in APS schools. APS schools do not provide courses as challenging as those at TJHSST, nor do they provide the same peer group or extracurricular activities. We invest way more than average in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. Why shouldn't we invest in students with high academic potential--aren't they also entitled to an education that is appropriately challenging, if that is not what is provided in a regular classroom? And if a student lives in Arlington, doesn't Arlington schools have to provide access to an appropriate education, even if the mechanism is busing them to a governor's school located in the next county?
BTW, APS isn't required to provide Montessori, or busing to choice schools, or high school marching band, or lots of other things that are definitively not part of providing a free and appropriate education. But we do.
Are you seriously suggesting that APS is responsible for providing a certain peer group and certain extracurricular activities? For just the best and brightest math and science students? or for all students? What about our best and brightest artists and musicians? Are they getting a "free and appropriate public education" in Arlington? Or are only the handful of students who actually get admitted to TJ the ones who are entitled to a different peer group and extracurricular activities? Would APS be expected to provide those peers and activities if a school in a neighboring jurisdiction did not provide them; or are you saying we have to offer them because they are available at TJ?
If you believe APS fully provides what the students in every academic category need or deserve, you are a fool. Nobody is entitled to the perfect education and social experience. They are entitled to a free, quality public education. Period. If APS isn't providing a good enough education, then parents advocate, vote, and may need to make some sacrifices and move to another district that will.
Several of our best and brightest artists and musicians go to Duke Ellington, but they have to pay tuition to DCPS and get their own transportation. Since we have the option for our best science and math kids to attend a governor's school through the public school system instead of making the parents jump through those hoops--and the obvious equity issues it raises--I think we should try and maintain it. And for the record, neither of my kids is TJHSST (or Ellington) material. I just think its incredibly stupid to have a resource like that available and not offer it. I don't understand why APS does so little to help identify and prepare kids to attend.
It’s not like APS has extra money sitting around and is doing this to be spiteful. Allocating this money to TJ would come at the detriment of many other students. But I get it. You think they are less worthy because they aren’t what you believe are “our best science and math kids.” Gross.
I never said that, although others in this thread have definitely said that kids who are gifted are less worthy than other students of having any additional resources given to them even if appropriate for them to be challenged.
And whether something is "to the detriment of other students" is exactly what the discussion is about. Every cut is to the "detriment" of somebody, although many cuts do not have to affect students directly. Trying to weigh what is in the best interest of the school system overall is the point of the budget discussion, which is when policies and goals become real. Whether the opportunity to play middle school tennis or the opportunity to attend TJ is better for the kids of Arlington is a policy choice.
I have never understood why Arlington paid for students to go to a school in another county. Unfortunately, it has set a precedent and now people feel entitled to it.
If you want something offered in Fairfax County - move there. I personally don't want my tax dollars going to an outside district. Keep it here, in Arlington, where it benefits all kids.
This really doesn't have to do with the fact that it's TJ - it's the fact that our tax dollars are going outside of our county to another school.
Anonymous wrote:I have never understood why Arlington paid for students to go to a school in another county. Unfortunately, it has set a precedent and now people feel entitled to it.
If you want something offered in Fairfax County - move there. I personally don't want my tax dollars going to an outside district. Keep it here, in Arlington, where it benefits all kids.
This really doesn't have to do with the fact that it's TJ - it's the fact that our tax dollars are going outside of our county to another school.
Do you pay state income taxes? If yes, then your tax dollars are still going to subsidize TJ. It is a state-sponsored magnet school. That's why TJ has to offer spots to APS and they can't proactively close their doors to Fairfax only. So now you are paying taxes to sponsor a system of magnet high schools in Virginia that your kids will never be able to attend, even if they could otherwise meet the admission criteria. Way to stick it to Fairfax!
In non-covid times, how much would APS save by not providing late buses, buses to transport sports teams or buses to APS choice schools?
Where I grew up, there were no school buses at all - we took the city bus, biked, walked or had parents drop students off. One bonus was that schools could start at a reasonable hour because they didn't rely on a fleet of buses that had to be used for three school levels each morning and afternoon.
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