APS - Bye TJ

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Pp, your statement is misguided. Who said money used for TJ was going to help improve other services in APS or get extracurricular activities back?Remember, there are many stakeholders in APS who will earmark that money for their own purposes. There is no guarantee it will help gifted services, extracurriculars or anything else we care about. It should stay 100 percent for TJ.

I know there is not guarantee that he’s funds would go to middle school extracurriculars. But as I said in my first post, I can’t justify putting this money toward something that benefit such a small number of students when we are cutting programming that would benefit a much larger pool of students. Middle school extracurriculars was just one example.

I hope APS does cut off TJ funding. It’s long overdue.

+1
Happy to support a scholarship program for APS kids who qualify and can't afford the tuition. But otherwise, this is yet another elite luxury wealthy Arlington parents feel entitled to. I'm sure many of those going can afford to contribute toward the tuition. And if they really want to go, they'll figure out a way to get them there, even if it's a van carpooling with the other Arlington students - particularly the poorer ones who can't afford the tuition and are probably more hard-pressed to have the transportation.

+1 as well. When I was a kid the number of kids that went to TJ from Arlington was 0 -- it wasn't something that was allowed. If you wanted to go to TJ, you moved to Fairfax.
Even after they started allowing people to go there from Arlington, I feel like it is prohibitively difficult for most parents -- there isn't bus transportation to after school activities or social events and its frankly very far away. Its unfortunate but they should focus on things that benefit more than a handful of students.

APS spends tons of time and energy and money on things that benefit only a handful of students. The program for pregnant and parenting students. The diversion program for students who have addiction/legal troubles. The program for students with significant physical disabilities. The evening high school for older students who are working.

There's no reason we can't provide transportation and send the money we would be spending in Arlington to Fairfax instead for tuition for a handful of kids capable and interested in taking advanced science and math classes we don't offer in our schools. Fairfax a) already offers the program, b) is geographically close to us, and c) charges tuition at cost, which is about the same as per-person spending at APS schools (plus transportation). We can't offer an equivalent experience due to a) too few students to support a full range of higher level classes and b) lack of facilities.

I would also point out that we do not invest in preparing students for higher level science and math the way Fairfax does, at all. Our identification and preparation of talented science and math students in Arlington is terrible, at least at the three elementary and middle schools I have had kids at. Letting kids prepare for TJ admission and giving them a bus is literally the LEAST APS can do.

This is precisely why it makes no sense for us to continue to send kids to TJ. The only kids who even have a shot of getting in are those whose parents have done something outside of APS to prepare their children. It’s not a level playing field. And now that the VADOE is going to ban accelerated math for the entire state, there’s no shot whatsoever for anyone who isn’t doing outside prep. TJ in its current iteration will cease to exist.

Whatever. Neither of my kids is athletic and they don't do sports. One isn't musical and has never done band or chorus. They won't take the kinds of things offered at the Career Center, they don't need special ed, we never applied for the choice schools, and so on. But just because they didn't want to, or didn't need, or weren't able to take advantage of everything APS offered doesn't mean those things shouldn't be offered -- that has never been the measure we have used to judge whether we should offer something. The measure is whether some kids will benefit from it. APS is a large school system in a wealthy county that offers a huge range of opportunities that people are free to take advantage of or not. And if there is an equity issue around program participation, then we should work on access, not remove the program.

When the ONLY kids who can benefit are those who are already privileged and whose parents can afford pricey camps, classes, and tutors outside of the free public education everyone else is receiving necessary to gain admission to the program, then yes, we can say, “Nope.” Such a thing already exists, and it’s not free. You want it? Pay tuition at a school that meets the “needs” of your child.

You could say the same thing about middle school sports.

That’s simply untrue about MS sports and clubs and extracurriculars. They are far more egalitarian. Kids whose parents never had them in ASA and who’ve never played travel soccer make the team routinely, while kids who do all the “right” things don’t.

Sure. Go try and walk on to the boys tennis team . . .

[Anonymous]

Walking on to the tennis team is not that hard, since it usually goes out to about 15 people or more. Making the 6 person team would be harder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Walking on to the tennis team is not that hard, since it usually goes out to about 15 people or more. Making the 6 person team would be harder.

Bull

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pp, your statement is misguided. Who said money used for TJ was going to help improve other services in APS or get extracurricular activities back?Remember, there are many stakeholders in APS who will earmark that money for their own purposes. There is no guarantee it will help gifted services, extracurriculars or anything else we care about. It should stay 100 percent for TJ.

I know there is not guarantee that he’s funds would go to middle school extracurriculars. But as I said in my first post, I can’t justify putting this money toward something that benefit such a small number of students when we are cutting programming that would benefit a much larger pool of students. Middle school extracurriculars was just one example.

I hope APS does cut off TJ funding. It’s long overdue.

+1
Happy to support a scholarship program for APS kids who qualify and can't afford the tuition. But otherwise, this is yet another elite luxury wealthy Arlington parents feel entitled to. I'm sure many of those going can afford to contribute toward the tuition. And if they really want to go, they'll figure out a way to get them there, even if it's a van carpooling with the other Arlington students - particularly the poorer ones who can't afford the tuition and are probably more hard-pressed to have the transportation.

+1 as well. When I was a kid the number of kids that went to TJ from Arlington was 0 -- it wasn't something that was allowed. If you wanted to go to TJ, you moved to Fairfax.
Even after they started allowing people to go there from Arlington, I feel like it is prohibitively difficult for most parents -- there isn't bus transportation to after school activities or social events and its frankly very far away. Its unfortunate but they should focus on things that benefit more than a handful of students.

APS spends tons of time and energy and money on things that benefit only a handful of students. The program for pregnant and parenting students. The diversion program for students who have addiction/legal troubles. The program for students with significant physical disabilities. The evening high school for older students who are working.

There's no reason we can't provide transportation and send the money we would be spending in Arlington to Fairfax instead for tuition for a handful of kids capable and interested in taking advanced science and math classes we don't offer in our schools. Fairfax a) already offers the program, b) is geographically close to us, and c) charges tuition at cost, which is about the same as per-person spending at APS schools (plus transportation). We can't offer an equivalent experience due to a) too few students to support a full range of higher level classes and b) lack of facilities.

I would also point out that we do not invest in preparing students for higher level science and math the way Fairfax does, at all. Our identification and preparation of talented science and math students in Arlington is terrible, at least at the three elementary and middle schools I have had kids at. Letting kids prepare for TJ admission and giving them a bus is literally the LEAST APS can do.

This is precisely why it makes no sense for us to continue to send kids to TJ. The only kids who even have a shot of getting in are those whose parents have done something outside of APS to prepare their children. It’s not a level playing field. And now that the VADOE is going to ban accelerated math for the entire state, there’s no shot whatsoever for anyone who isn’t doing outside prep. TJ in its current iteration will cease to exist.

Whatever. Neither of my kids is athletic and they don't do sports. One isn't musical and has never done band or chorus. They won't take the kinds of things offered at the Career Center, they don't need special ed, we never applied for the choice schools, and so on. But just because they didn't want to, or didn't need, or weren't able to take advantage of everything APS offered doesn't mean those things shouldn't be offered -- that has never been the measure we have used to judge whether we should offer something. The measure is whether some kids will benefit from it. APS is a large school system in a wealthy county that offers a huge range of opportunities that people are free to take advantage of or not. And if there is an equity issue around program participation, then we should work on access, not remove the program.

When the ONLY kids who can benefit are those who are already privileged and whose parents can afford pricey camps, classes, and tutors outside of the free public education everyone else is receiving necessary to gain admission to the program, then yes, we can say, “Nope.” Such a thing already exists, and it’s not free. You want it? Pay tuition at a school that meets the “needs” of your child.

You could say the same thing about middle school sports.

That’s simply untrue about MS sports and clubs and extracurriculars. They are far more egalitarian. Kids whose parents never had them in ASA and who’ve never played travel soccer make the team routinely, while kids who do all the “right” things don’t.

Sure. Go try and walk on to the boys tennis team . . .

This cut isn’t just sports, it’s all clubs and activities in MS, the majority of which have no barrier to entry or previous experience required. And there is at least one no-cut sport at the MS level. But please go on with your tantrum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Walking on to the tennis team is not that hard, since it usually goes out to about 15 people or more. Making the 6 person team would be harder.

Bull

NP - perhaps it depends on your school? Have you considered that the interest levels in various activities may differ from school to school?

[Anonymous]

What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Walking on to the tennis team is not that hard, since it usually goes out to about 15 people or more. Making the 6 person team would be harder.

Bull

NP - perhaps it depends on your school? Have you considered that the interest levels in various activities may differ from school to school?

TJ Middle school, maybe you could walk on as a tennis player. Hamm, Swanson, Williamsburg? No.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

Don’t be surprised if this— with a little help from Amazon & VT— is what ends up happening. There were some nods to it when the whole Amazon/VT/HQ2 thing was announced, and while I can’t speak for APS, I think ACPS would be far more receptive to a 2-district partnership where they aren’t “losing their best & brightest to FCPS” as some central office folks view TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Walking on to the tennis team is not that hard, since it usually goes out to about 15 people or more. Making the 6 person team would be harder.

Bull

NP - perhaps it depends on your school? Have you considered that the interest levels in various activities may differ from school to school?

TJ Middle school, maybe you could walk on as a tennis player. Hamm, Swanson, Williamsburg? No.

Oh noes! The kids of the least diverse area of Arlington can’t walk on to a tennis team!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

Don’t be surprised if this— with a little help from Amazon & VT— is what ends up happening. There were some nods to it when the whole Amazon/VT/HQ2 thing was announced, and while I can’t speak for APS, I think ACPS would be far more receptive to a 2-district partnership where they aren’t “losing their best & brightest to FCPS” as some central office folks view TJ.

you really haven't been paying attention to the political winds regarding advanced education

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.

Not all of APS's "best science and math students" go to TJ today. And there is zero chance APS is coming out ahead financially on sending students to TJ. That is just laughable and makes it hard to take seriously anything else in your post.