Why are the top elementary schools in NW better?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:racism is probably why. they are probably receiving inferior instruction, discouraging cultural messaging. perhaps the tools used to asses are also biased.

I would not use the term "racism" becasue it implies some malicious intent which I do not think is the case in schools. However, I do think that there are inherent cultural/language biases in most formal education settings. BTW, I would love the see a study on the acheivement gap when you are comparing white american born students vs. foreign born english speaking black students.

Me too !

[Anonymous]

Take a look at Malcolm Gladwell's latest -- "What the Dog Saw" -- the chapter on "Panic or Choke" has an interesting description of black and white and male v. female test scores. If black student or female students are told the test measures IQ or ability they choke and score lower. If you tell them it is not important their scores even out with white males.

Seems like one solution to this issue is better test taking skills (not teaching to the test) but teaching kid to have confidence in themselves. And, removing the stress of the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, I think that some/most schools in NW are better than in other parts of town because the parents are wealthier and better educated, and then better prepare their children for school... hate to say it, but education starts at birth.

A school can be great and have all the money in the world but there is only so much "catch up" they can do if the child has little to no exposure to books/reading/early education.

Totally agree. Money is nice, but it is not a substitute for a well-prepared child entering school or a supportive family network at home. In many parts of this city, children are starting Kindergarten significantly behind. The key has to be mandatory early education - preferably starting at 2 or 3 in our most impoverished areas. Working with the entire family is crucial; schools can't do it all and it is not fair to lay it all at their doorsteps. As someone who works in this field, it cannot be understated how different the experiences of an upper NW kid is from a kid growing up a few miles away in SE. It's a disgrace, and most of us sitting comfortably in our nice middle and upper-middle class neighborhoods have no clue.

I agree with this - but, for whatever reason, there is a correlation between money and a well prepared child and a supportive family structure. Not causation, but correlation. When you combine the money and family structure/preparation factors, that's why you see the big gaps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Take a look at Malcolm Gladwell's latest -- "What the Dog Saw" -- the chapter on "Panic or Choke" has an interesting description of black and white and male v. female test scores. If black student or female students are told the test measures IQ or ability they choke and score lower. If you tell them it is not important their scores even out with white males.

Seems like one solution to this issue is better test taking skills (not teaching to the test) but teaching kid to have confidence in themselves. And, removing the stress of the test.

Gladwell is the master of the correlation = causation fallacy. Pop psychology/statistician.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, I think that some/most schools in NW are better than in other parts of town because the parents are wealthier and better educated, and then better prepare their children for school... hate to say it, but education starts at birth.

A school can be great and have all the money in the world but there is only so much "catch up" they can do if the child has little to no exposure to books/reading/early education.

Totally agree. Money is nice, but it is not a substitute for a well-prepared child entering school or a supportive family network at home. In many parts of this city, children are starting Kindergarten significantly behind. The key has to be mandatory early education - preferably starting at 2 or 3 in our most impoverished areas. Working with the entire family is crucial; schools can't do it all and it is not fair to lay it all at their doorsteps. As someone who works in this field, it cannot be understated how different the experiences of an upper NW kid is from a kid growing up a few miles away in SE. It's a disgrace, and most of us sitting comfortably in our nice middle and upper-middle class neighborhoods have no clue.

I know you mean well, so I'm going to try not slam you here. Without going into all the background... have you heard of "Head Start"? If not, there is an early education program that was designed during the JOHNSON administration that has been addressing your idea since 1965. With all due respect, perhaps you should complete your high school diploma before you engage yourself in designing federal policy?

(Sorry about the slamming. I tried, but it didn't work out. )

[Anonymous]

Hey 23:13, did you know: Head Start is not mandatory?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hey 23:13, did you know: Head Start is not mandatory?

or even universally available, for that matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It has been a couple of years, but I believe in Freakonomics, the economist author actually did a very extensive review of student achievement in the chicago area and when he controlled for socioeconomic background he found no difference between black and white student achievement.

I read Freakonomics, it's on my shelf. Your belief is incorrect. The achievement gap exists, the author(s) were proposing theories to account for it.

PP here (I had to go look now), what they found was that if you controlled for a group of variables, age of mother, birth weight, socioeconomic factors, etc., was that there was no gap in kindergarten. The gap appeared, however, over time and differed based on the school environment, but seemed to persist at all schools but at different levels. The original research paper on which the section of the book was based can be found here: http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals/pdf/rest_86_2_447_0.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey 23:13, did you know: Head Start is not mandatory?

or even universally available, for that matter.

And now that there is no longer a head start program because its a blended model there is no promise that parents who need the services that head start offers or needs will go to the students who are in those families. Children from head start families are now competing with all other 3/4 year olds for preschool/prek spots in DCPS. (via the lottery...)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It has been a couple of years, but I believe in Freakonomics, the economist author actually did a very extensive review of student achievement in the chicago area and when he controlled for socioeconomic background he found no difference between black and white student achievement.

I read Freakonomics, it's on my shelf. Your belief is incorrect. The achievement gap exists, the author(s) were proposing theories to account for it.

PP here (I had to go look now), what they found was that if you controlled for a group of variables, age of mother, birth weight, socioeconomic factors, etc., was that there was no gap in kindergarten. The gap appeared, however, over time and differed based on the school environment, but seemed to persist at all schools but at different levels. The original research paper on which the section of the book was based can be found here: http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals/pdf/rest_86_2_447_0.pdf

That's the same paper posted several pages ago on this thread. While yes everything could be equal in kindergarten. No one can explain why the gap persists at the upper grades, despite controlling for socioeconomic factors. I think everyone understands that children may need more support in the early years.

So if I can tie this back to the original thread. I am African American, my kids attend an Upper NW school (we live inbounds) and our school has a very low number of kids that would qualify for free, and reduced lunch. The gap is there. It's not a huge gap but it's there. While my kids are excelling at their school, this gap makes me have doubts about public school for them in the later years. And yes as someone else posted previously about positive anecdotal experiences with successful African Americans, my family background would suggest that I have nothing to worry about, but I just find the whole thing disturbing on so many levels.

[Anonymous]

It is possible that the "gap" only exists because the data isn't valid.

Honestly, this whole thread is rather silly. The OP asked the question, "why are the top elemntary schools better?"

They are not better. They are only higher scoring.

If the question is "why do these schools have higher scores on the DC-CAS?" the simple answer is affluence and educational level of parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, I think that some/most schools in NW are better than in other parts of town because the parents are wealthier and better educated, and then better prepare their children for school... hate to say it, but education starts at birth.

A school can be great and have all the money in the world but there is only so much "catch up" they can do if the child has little to no exposure to books/reading/early education.

Totally agree. Money is nice, but it is not a substitute for a well-prepared child entering school or a supportive family network at home. In many parts of this city, children are starting Kindergarten significantly behind. The key has to be mandatory early education - preferably starting at 2 or 3 in our most impoverished areas. Working with the entire family is crucial; schools can't do it all and it is not fair to lay it all at their doorsteps. As someone who works in this field, it cannot be understated how different the experiences of an upper NW kid is from a kid growing up a few miles away in SE. It's a disgrace, and most of us sitting comfortably in our nice middle and upper-middle class neighborhoods have no clue.

I know you mean well, so I'm going to try not slam you here. Without going into all the background... have you heard of "Head Start"? If not, there is an early education program that was designed during the JOHNSON administration that has been addressing your idea since 1965. With all due respect, perhaps you should complete your high school diploma before you engage yourself in designing federal policy?

(Sorry about the slamming. I tried, but it didn't work out. )

Wow - just got back here and glad to see some support by other posters after reading this nonsensical and vicious post. With all due respect to you, you obviously no nothing about Head Start. It is certainly not available to everyone and it's also not necessarily well done by those that provide it. Why don't you go down to Southeast D.C. sometime and see all the 2 and 3 year olds there that spend their day in crappy apartments with insufficient caregivers. Mandatory Pre-K is something being debated in this city and this country so maybe you should go back and do some of your own research before you slam me. As for whether I need to complete my "high school diploma" before engaging in this discussion - I hate to stoop to your level but feel the need to - I can almost guarantee you that I have achieved a greater education level than you have along with direct experience working with the population I'm talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Take a look at Malcolm Gladwell's latest -- "What the Dog Saw" -- the chapter on "Panic or Choke" has an interesting description of black and white and male v. female test scores. If black student or female students are told the test measures IQ or ability they choke and score lower. If you tell them it is not important their scores even out with white males.

Seems like one solution to this issue is better test taking skills (not teaching to the test) but teaching kid to have confidence in themselves. And, removing the stress of the test.

Gladwell is the master of the correlation = causation fallacy. Pop psychology/statistician.

Actually, I think most of the posters here are masters of that fallacy (i.e. minority poor students do worse on tests so it must mean there is something about being a minority or poor that makes you do badly). Gladwell looked at the research and points out that minorities do equally well on tests when the the pressure is off: Raising the question (not the conclusion) that perhaps the reason they do worse is not less ability (or even worse schools) but because they try extra hard to do well while laboring under the (mis)impression that minorities/poor do will do less well, so by trying so hard to overcome that assumption they end up undermining themselves and scoring worse.

Obviously, this test taking bias does not mean that there is not a huge gap in the quality of schooling offered to the poor and the rich.

[Anonymous]

Head Start does seem to do great things in preparing kids for K and 1st grade. Often, I believe, it is also combined with involving the parents in discussions of nutrition etc (my SIL did it).

Unfortunately the positive effects (on-grade performance etc.) seem to go away by about 3rd or 4th grade - something researchers attributed to poor schools after head start. So clearly the problem would seem to run through the entire school system.

[Anonymous]

Have you seen the difference in test scores for black girls vs. black boys in DC. The girls tend to have double the scores of boys in a few schools I looked at (DC-CAS). Black boys are really falling behind. I don't think anyone would argue that in many cases, the lack of a strong father figure really hurts them.