UNC vs UVA (OOS)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UNC is in Duke's shadow nearby, whereas UVA is the top school in Virginia.

That is highly debatable for undergraduate education.

I'd say it has the top law school and MBA program in Virginia. Beyond that, I'm not sure what distinguishes it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I kind of have to agree with you. I know that the campus has UNESCO World Heritage status but I was shocked at the small, cramped and hot library with electrical tape covering cords all over the floors. The libraries at its peer institutions UCLA and Michigan are open, well-ventilated and huge!

You can look at an isolated building at any school and it may be in desperate need of renovation or replacement. UVA (or more correctly the Commonwealth of Virginia) should have upgraded Alderman earlier, but this is cherry picking data points. UNC still had tall, prison-like dorms near the Dean Dome last time I was there. Michigan struck me as an overbuilt mess the last time I was there. UCLA (and Michigan) have limited on campus housing, so many students are miles from campus (assuming they are not e-learning).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UNC without a doubt and regardless of the cost differential.

Have you toured the campuses? UNC wins hands down. The campus is beautiful and well-kept. There is a lot of money being poured into it and you can see it everywhere on campus. Whereas UVA is really run down and it has a strong hard-luck vibe now that it didn't have back when I was a student there. I wish I could say that UVA has done a good job keeping up appearances but it just hasn't. Enough said.

There also is a lot to be said for the easy drive to UNC. A straight shot down 95 to 84 on nice straight interstate highways. It is pretty much a piece of cake.

Although in this area there are a lot of UVA supporters it is my opinion that UNC has a better national/international profile and name recognition.

UNC has a better national representation? Haha, no.

UNC definitely has a better international reputation because they pump out far more research. The Shanghai Ranking ranks UNC 23/33 US/Global while UVA is ranked 59-66/151-200.

Nationally, someone in the Midwest or West may know UNC more because of basketball and Duke. Among academics, they know UNC because of the Research Triangle.

In the Mid-Atlantic/NYC area, UVa is probably considered more prestigious, but that may be entirely based on history and somewhat higher average student quality, and also reading USNews a lot.

Again, the problem with UVA is that its research is very weak for a "top" public school. And this does trickle down to undergrads among research universities with better professors, better TA's, better courses, better programs, and better research opportunities

So your theory is a school that prioritizes research is somehow good for undergrads? I'd say find a school that prioritizes undergraduate education. To

This is not a difficult concept to understand. Which university is known better worldwide, Harvard or Williams? Academic research brings academic prestige and reputation to the school.

And yes, a school with little research will have professors that generally aren't as capable in research terms. That doesn't mean they wouldn't be good educators, but at that point why not simply learn from a high school teacher. Why do you need to learn from a Ph.D. professor?
Also schools with little research will have a lot of adjuncts, lecturers, etc.
More research = more research professors = more interesting classes for undergrads, better TA's, better overall program foundation.

The flipside is most research universities might have larger class size, and in the case of UNC/UVA, UVA probably have a better population academically.

If you look at student surveys and responses in places like Princeton Review and Niche, research-intensive universities generally get much lower satisfaction scores for teaching and student-teacher interactions. Research universities also use adjuncts and lecturers in addition to TAs, so not sure what your point is there. The University of California system did a time study on how professors spend their time and it came down to about 1/3 research, 1/3 graduate education, and 1/3 undergraduate education. So even though undergraduates have reduced in-state tuition there, the conclusion was they still subsidize research and graduate study with their tuition based on the attention they get (or don't get to put it another way).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know people in this area think that UVA is known nationally and internationally - but it just is not. Is it common to wear UVA gear if you don't have a connection to the school? No. Now ask the same question about Carolina.


Carolina also abuts a gorgeous college town. It is also in a wealthy, highly educated, diverse area - the same cannot be said of Charlottesville.

This is just a sports phenomenon. Gang members used to wear University of Miami and USC stuff even though they didn't go there. Is that a plus?

Charlottesville is regarded as a nice college town, just like Chapel Hill. You can Google it. Not sure what your point is there either.

[Anonymous]

An orange and powder blue food fight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If you look at student surveys and responses in places like Princeton Review and Niche, research-intensive universities generally get much lower satisfaction scores for teaching and student-teacher interactions. Research universities also use adjuncts and lecturers in addition to TAs, so not sure what your point is there. The University of California system did a time study on how professors spend their time and it came down to about 1/3 research, 1/3 graduate education, and 1/3 undergraduate education. So even though undergraduates have reduced in-state tuition there, the conclusion was they still subsidize research and graduate study with their tuition based on the attention they get (or don't get to put it another way).

It's true that research professors will not spend as much time with undergrads as in undergrad-focused universities. But ask yourself again: why do students clamor to get into Harvard, but don't care as much about Williams?

Fact of the matter is, research universities will have more academically accomplished professors. This can be very good for high-achieving students because they can leverage these opportunities by doing research for professors and get recommendation letters from renowned professors in the field that they want to go to grad school for. This is especially true in the sciences where large lecture halls don't matter as much (not much in-class discussion going on)

For middle-of-the-road students, indeed they can get easily lost in research universities. Those students probably have a better time with smaller classes.

[Anonymous]

We have two at strong SLACs and a freshman at a solid Big Ten school. Prof instruction quality at the uni is very uneven and little access to them. TA interactions are almost uniformly terrible. She wanted engineering so a SLAC wasn’t a great option but not very impressed with the experience so far.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know people in this area think that UVA is known nationally and internationally - but it just is not. Is it common to wear UVA gear if you don't have a connection to the school? No. Now ask the same question about Carolina.


Carolina also abuts a gorgeous college town. It is also in a wealthy, highly educated, diverse area - the same cannot be said of Charlottesville.

This is just a sports phenomenon. Gang members used to wear University of Miami and USC stuff even though they didn't go there. Is that a plus?

Charlottesville is regarded as a nice college town, just like Chapel Hill. You can Google it. Not sure what your point is there either.

It's a plus because it means more name recognition thus making it better known. I'm not sure why that it is confusing to you.


Have you been to Chapel Hill and to Charlottesville? They are quite different. Also, it's been a few years since I've been to Charlottesville, but I don't think the campus is adjacent to it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UNC is in Duke's shadow nearby, whereas UVA is the top school in Virginia.

That is highly debatable for undergraduate education.

I'd say it has the top law school and MBA program in Virginia. Beyond that, I'm not sure what distinguishes it.

Please don't post if you don't know law school rankings. UVA's law school is no. 1 in a number of rankings and consistently between no. 6 or 8. It is one of THE top law schools in the country and still a deal compared to the privates which are going to $105 a year. UNC's law is way below. https://www.law.virginia.edu/news/201811/uva-law-again-tops-nation-princeton-review-rankings. This year (2021), UVA is no. 8 in the land for law school and UNC is 27 (which means not worth going to because if you can't get into a T-14 don't go because you won't get a job). https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UNC without a doubt and regardless of the cost differential.

Have you toured the campuses? UNC wins hands down. The campus is beautiful and well-kept. There is a lot of money being poured into it and you can see it everywhere on campus. Whereas UVA is really run down and it has a strong hard-luck vibe now that it didn't have back when I was a student there. I wish I could say that UVA has done a good job keeping up appearances but it just hasn't. Enough said.

There also is a lot to be said for the easy drive to UNC. A straight shot down 95 to 84 on nice straight interstate highways. It is pretty much a piece of cake.

Although in this area there are a lot of UVA supporters it is my opinion that UNC has a better national/international profile and name recognition.

UVA’s campus is not “really run down”. WTF?

someone is bitter about getting in. DC was to "Graduate" this May. I've been on the campus a lot in the last four years. I have no idea what PP is talking about. UVA is often mentioned or ranked highly as the most beautiful campus in the U.S.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UNC is in Duke's shadow nearby, whereas UVA is the top school in Virginia.

That is highly debatable for undergraduate education.

I'd say it has the top law school and MBA program in Virginia. Beyond that, I'm not sure what distinguishes it.

Please don't post if you don't know law school rankings. UVA's law school is no. 1 in a number of rankings and consistently between no. 6 or 8. It is one of THE top law schools in the country and still a deal compared to the privates which are going to $105 a year. UNC's law is way below. https://www.law.virginia.edu/news/201811/uva-law-again-tops-nation-princeton-review-rankings. This year (2021), UVA is no. 8 in the land for law school and UNC is 27 (which means not worth going to because if you can't get into a T-14 don't go because you won't get a job). https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

Their post on law and MBA was correct. Not sure why you went on with this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know people in this area think that UVA is known nationally and internationally - but it just is not. Is it common to wear UVA gear if you don't have a connection to the school? No. Now ask the same question about Carolina.


Carolina also abuts a gorgeous college town. It is also in a wealthy, highly educated, diverse area - the same cannot be said of Charlottesville.

This is just a sports phenomenon. Gang members used to wear University of Miami and USC stuff even though they didn't go there. Is that a plus?

Charlottesville is regarded as a nice college town, just like Chapel Hill. You can Google it. Not sure what your point is there either.

It's a plus because it means more name recognition thus making it better known. I'm not sure why that it is confusing to you.


Have you been to Chapel Hill and to Charlottesville? They are quite different. Also, it's been a few years since I've been to Charlottesville, but I don't think the campus is adjacent to it.

Top sports schools have high name recognition (e.g. University of Alabama is well known through football). That doesn't mean recognition for academics. (I would note UVA has been better than UNC in athletics recently.)

I've been to both many, many times. UVA is in Charlottesville, but not adjacent to the downtown. I consider both schools attractive, but not among the best campuses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Which would you pick?

I don't think I'd pay OOS tuition for either. There are many academically comparable private schools where you'll be able to pay less -- and your kid will get more personal attention.

OP here. That was not our experience. The private schools that seem to be in the same tier as these two that DC got into did not give any aid so would be paying $75K + (Rochester and Boston College) which isn’t really in the budget. The two schools that did give her enough aid to make the costs a little bit less ($38K total at Loyola MD and $48K at Syracuse) I don’t think would really be considered academically comparable. Maybe I’m wrong.

You’re not wrong.

With respect to the schools you mentioned, you're probably not wrong. But you likely limited your search unnecessarily. Should have included some SLACs within the #40-100 range of the USNWR rankings for national liberal arts colleges. Many of them provide a college experience that is superior in many respects to what you'll find at mid-sized or larger universities (where students are just anonymous faces in a large herd). And your kid could have gone to one of these SLACs for a price that reflects the true, actual cost of a year in attendance at a residential college (either private or public flagship), which is about $30-35k.

Of all the schools you've considered, BC is probably the best in terms of the undergraduate curriculum offered, but it's not worth $75k/year. I don't think any American college or university is worth that kind of money. But some are willing to pay it, and that's why certain schools can get away with charging it.

I have a feeling that that is about to change.

Thanks, but she was not at all interested in SLACs. And yes, we toured several and it was very clear to her that that is not what she wanted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UNC is in Duke's shadow nearby, whereas UVA is the top school in Virginia.

That is highly debatable for undergraduate education.

I'd say it has the top law school and MBA program in Virginia. Beyond that, I'm not sure what distinguishes it.

Please don't post if you don't know law school rankings. UVA's law school is no. 1 in a number of rankings and consistently between no. 6 or 8. It is one of THE top law schools in the country and still a deal compared to the privates which are going to $105 a year. UNC's law is way below. https://www.law.virginia.edu/news/201811/uva-law-again-tops-nation-princeton-review-rankings. This year (2021), UVA is no. 8 in the land for law school and UNC is 27 (which means not worth going to because if you can't get into a T-14 don't go because you won't get a job). https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

This is a surprisingly shrill response to a factually correct, non-provocative statement.

What's bothering you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Which would you pick?

I don't think I'd pay OOS tuition for either. There are many academically comparable private schools where you'll be able to pay less -- and your kid will get more personal attention.

OP here. That was not our experience. The private schools that seem to be in the same tier as these two that DC got into did not give any aid so would be paying $75K + (Rochester and Boston College) which isn’t really in the budget. The two schools that did give her enough aid to make the costs a little bit less ($38K total at Loyola MD and $48K at Syracuse) I don’t think would really be considered academically comparable. Maybe I’m wrong.

You’re not wrong.

With respect to the schools you mentioned, you're probably not wrong. But you likely limited your search unnecessarily. Should have included some SLACs within the #40-100 range of the USNWR rankings for national liberal arts colleges. Many of them provide a college experience that is superior in many respects to what you'll find at mid-sized or larger universities (where students are just anonymous faces in a large herd). And your kid could have gone to one of these SLACs for a price that reflects the true, actual cost of a year in attendance at a residential college (either private or public flagship), which is about $30-35k.

Of all the schools you've considered, BC is probably the best in terms of the undergraduate curriculum offered, but it's not worth $75k/year. I don't think any American college or university is worth that kind of money. But some are willing to pay it, and that's why certain schools can get away with charging it.

I have a feeling that that is about to change.

Thanks, but she was not at all interested in SLACs. And yes, we toured several and it was very clear to her that that is not what she wanted.

Many LACs in the 40s don’t even give merit aid. And once you get in the 50s and below, I’m sorry but those are very unlikely to be an academic fit for someone who was able to get into UNC and UVA from out of state.