Immersion ... pros and cons?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

When my kid was in the immersion program at RCF, I remember looking at the directory to test this hypothesis. Nearly every kid in the immersion class was from Silver Spring, the Wheaton part of Kensington or up county. I think 2 kids were from Bethesda.

To be fair, though, RCF is adjacent to Silver Spring, and Silver Spring and Wheaton are both extremely densely populated.

True. But it’s also close to Bethesda. Clearly Bethesda families aren’t as interested in getting their kids out of their zoned schools.

Sure, from this anecdote at least, it would seem that way. But there are many possible reasons why. A couple of ideas: Bethesda families often buy into their school pyramids very deliberately and may be less willing/interested in leaving their home schools. (Note: this is really not the same thing as saying Silver Spring families are desperate to opt out of their home schools.) And/or Silver Spring families are much more likely to actively seek out foreign language instruction (maybe because they value diversity-- which is why they chose to live in Silver Spring; or perhaps they speak Spanish at home themselves). My main point is that Bethesda families participating less in the lottery is not positive evidence that Silver Spring/Wheaton families are using the immersion lottery as a means of escape.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

When my kid was in the immersion program at RCF, I remember looking at the directory to test this hypothesis. Nearly every kid in the immersion class was from Silver Spring, the Wheaton part of Kensington or up county. I think 2 kids were from Bethesda.

To be fair, though, RCF is adjacent to Silver Spring, and Silver Spring and Wheaton are both extremely densely populated.

True. But it’s also close to Bethesda. Clearly Bethesda families aren’t as interested in getting their kids out of their zoned schools.

Sure, from this anecdote at least, it would seem that way. But there are many possible reasons why. A couple of ideas: Bethesda families often buy into their school pyramids very deliberately and may be less willing/interested in leaving their home schools. (Note: this is really not the same thing as saying Silver Spring families are desperate to opt out of their home schools.) And/or Silver Spring families are much more likely to actively seek out foreign language instruction (maybe because they value diversity-- which is why they chose to live in Silver Spring; or perhaps they speak Spanish at home themselves). My main point is that Bethesda families participating less in the lottery is not positive evidence that Silver Spring/Wheaton families are using the immersion lottery as a means of escape.

You realize sometimes some people do not have a choice in this overpriced county?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

When my kid was in the immersion program at RCF, I remember looking at the directory to test this hypothesis. Nearly every kid in the immersion class was from Silver Spring, the Wheaton part of Kensington or up county. I think 2 kids were from Bethesda.

To be fair, though, RCF is adjacent to Silver Spring, and Silver Spring and Wheaton are both extremely densely populated.

True. But it’s also close to Bethesda. Clearly Bethesda families aren’t as interested in getting their kids out of their zoned schools.

Sure, from this anecdote at least, it would seem that way. But there are many possible reasons why. A couple of ideas: Bethesda families often buy into their school pyramids very deliberately and may be less willing/interested in leaving their home schools. (Note: this is really not the same thing as saying Silver Spring families are desperate to opt out of their home schools.) And/or Silver Spring families are much more likely to actively seek out foreign language instruction (maybe because they value diversity-- which is why they chose to live in Silver Spring; or perhaps they speak Spanish at home themselves). My main point is that Bethesda families participating less in the lottery is not positive evidence that Silver Spring/Wheaton families are using the immersion lottery as a means of escape.

You realize sometimes some people do not have a choice in this overpriced county?

Of course I do. I suggested some people choose Silver Spring. I don’t believe my comment/parenthetical made a broader claim.

[Anonymous]

Is there any data that shows the demographics of the programs at each school? I’m curious about how many black kids are in the immersion programs. Particularly the French and Chinese immersion ones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

When my kid was in the immersion program at RCF, I remember looking at the directory to test this hypothesis. Nearly every kid in the immersion class was from Silver Spring, the Wheaton part of Kensington or up county. I think 2 kids were from Bethesda.

To be fair, though, RCF is adjacent to Silver Spring, and Silver Spring and Wheaton are both extremely densely populated.

True. But it’s also close to Bethesda. Clearly Bethesda families aren’t as interested in getting their kids out of their zoned schools.

Sure, from this anecdote at least, it would seem that way. But there are many possible reasons why. A couple of ideas: Bethesda families often buy into their school pyramids very deliberately and may be less willing/interested in leaving their home schools. (Note: this is really not the same thing as saying Silver Spring families are desperate to opt out of their home schools.) And/or Silver Spring families are much more likely to actively seek out foreign language instruction (maybe because they value diversity-- which is why they chose to live in Silver Spring; or perhaps they speak Spanish at home themselves). My main point is that Bethesda families participating less in the lottery is not positive evidence that Silver Spring/Wheaton families are using the immersion lottery as a means of escape.

You realize sometimes some people do not have a choice in this overpriced county?

Of course I do. I suggested some people choose Silver Spring. I don’t believe my comment/parenthetical made a broader claim.

DP here. I think the majority of families have a choice. The choice is between a smaller house or condo/apartment zoned for "better" schools with very small percentages of Black and Latino students or a larger home zoned for "worse" schools with larger percentages of Black and Latino students. For my family, having a larger percentage of Latino students was really important as I am Latina and grew up without any Latino friends in my school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is there any data that shows the demographics of the programs at each school? I’m curious about how many black kids are in the immersion programs. Particularly the French and Chinese immersion ones.

I've never seen the statistics broken out, but the French program at SCES is pretty diverse. Fewer Latino kids than Black kids, but a mix of heritage French speakers and native English speakers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

When my kid was in the immersion program at RCF, I remember looking at the directory to test this hypothesis. Nearly every kid in the immersion class was from Silver Spring, the Wheaton part of Kensington or up county. I think 2 kids were from Bethesda.

To be fair, though, RCF is adjacent to Silver Spring, and Silver Spring and Wheaton are both extremely densely populated.

True. But it’s also close to Bethesda. Clearly Bethesda families aren’t as interested in getting their kids out of their zoned schools.

DP. We knew some families that moved from Bethesda to Silver Spring after their child had lotteried into French Immersion at Sligo Creek. They likely had some thought of moving anyway, but I think the proximity to school became the driving factor (at least one moved after the Kindergarten year). I can imagine something similar for Rock Creek Forest, though it is closer/on the edge of Chevy Chase and I don't have anecdotes, there.

Not sure how that might show up in statistics about the location of those in immersion programs -- whether they might use the applied-from address or the current address. Such moves become a thing whenever MCPS floats ideas about moving programs from one school to another (not just immersion programs).

I would think that there is some credence to the idea that families from areas where the elementary is rated higher may place more weight on that when deciding to pursue or accept an immersion slot (or a criteria-based magnet slot). The way you phrase it, however ("Clearly..."), almost certainly would be read as an overstatement to whatever underlying reality there may be.

To be quite honest, while a high-expectation/high-family-drive cohort can create a coattails effect and make for easier classroom management due to those expectations driving more compliant behavior and presenting lower academic heterogeneity, it seems that many without such a cohort, when given the resources to deal with a heterogeneous classroom population, do quite well by students when comparing apples to apples. Of course, there always seems to be vocal opposition to need-based resourcing from those having fewer needs.

Separately, but somewhat related (given that school ratings are based in part on test scores), is another Sligo Creek anecdote. The number of students meeting grade-level proficiency has been effectively misreported by the state, which demands use of the entire student body as a denominator when the school-specific numerator excludes those in French Immersion (at least in certain grades) because they don't take the English proficiency test at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

When my kid was in the immersion program at RCF, I remember looking at the directory to test this hypothesis. Nearly every kid in the immersion class was from Silver Spring, the Wheaton part of Kensington or up county. I think 2 kids were from Bethesda.

To be fair, though, RCF is adjacent to Silver Spring, and Silver Spring and Wheaton are both extremely densely populated.

True. But it’s also close to Bethesda. Clearly Bethesda families aren’t as interested in getting their kids out of their zoned schools.

DP. We knew some families that moved from Bethesda to Silver Spring after their child had lotteried into French Immersion at Sligo Creek. They likely had some thought of moving anyway, but I think the proximity to school became the driving factor (at least one moved after the Kindergarten year). I can imagine something similar for Rock Creek Forest, though it is closer/on the edge of Chevy Chase and I don't have anecdotes, there.

Not sure how that might show up in statistics about the location of those in immersion programs -- whether they might use the applied-from address or the current address. Such moves become a thing whenever MCPS floats ideas about moving programs from one school to another (not just immersion programs).

I would think that there is some credence to the idea that families from areas where the elementary is rated higher may place more weight on that when deciding to pursue or accept an immersion slot (or a criteria-based magnet slot). The way you phrase it, however ("Clearly..."), almost certainly would be read as an overstatement to whatever underlying reality there may be.

To be quite honest, while a high-expectation/high-family-drive cohort can create a coattails effect and make for easier classroom management due to those expectations driving more compliant behavior and presenting lower academic heterogeneity, it seems that many without such a cohort, when given the resources to deal with a heterogeneous classroom population, do quite well by students when comparing apples to apples. Of course, there always seems to be vocal opposition to need-based resourcing from those having fewer needs.

Separately, but somewhat related (given that school ratings are based in part on test scores), is another Sligo Creek anecdote. The number of students meeting grade-level proficiency has been effectively misreported by the state, which demands use of the entire student body as a denominator when the school-specific numerator excludes those in French Immersion (at least in certain grades) because they don't take the English proficiency test at all.

I have a child at SCES and I don’t think this is accurate. They took the MCAP in English this last year—there had to be a sub administering it because the administration directions are in English, which the teachers do not use with the kids. MAP as well, of course. Way too much testing.