Immersion ... pros and cons?

[Anonymous]

They need to create more seats and understand that bilingualism helps our communities and country!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They need to create more seats and understand that bilingualism helps our communities and country!!!

+1 It would be nice to see the program expanded to more schools and maybe even add more languages like Japanese and Arabic.

[Anonymous]

How do the test scores for the McPs immersion schools compare to non-immersion schools? Specifically, are the immersion kids actually literate in either language?

Another thing to consider are the optics. Many white families jump through hoops to send their child from their home school that’s majority native Spanish speakers to a majorly black school where the only kids speaking Spanish are the immersion kids in their self-contained cohorts.

Lastly, how well can MCPS staff these programs? I’m unaware of the elem level, but I know White Oak has had many issues keeping teachers. Not a program I would want for my kids, but to each his own. Just don’t complain when there isn’t enough $ to staff the programs or transport kids all over the county.

[Anonymous]

I am so grateful that my daughter had the opportunity. It’s amazing to have a child fluent in another language. My son was not in immersion and was at our neighborhood elementary school that we loved. The only hiccup was brief and there was a point where my daughter was reading in French but couldn’t read English yet like her non immersion peers. That didn’t last that long - maybe a year - which didn’t amount to anything in the long run. I would recommend not over thinking it - apply for the lottery and then if you get in - start really analyzing and make your decision. I think it’s a real gift for the child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do the test scores for the McPs immersion schools compare to non-immersion schools? Specifically, are the immersion kids actually literate in either language?

Another thing to consider are the optics. Many white families jump through hoops to send their child from their home school that’s majority native Spanish speakers to a majorly black school where the only kids speaking Spanish are the immersion kids in their self-contained cohorts.

Lastly, how well can MCPS staff these programs? I’m unaware of the elem level, but I know White Oak has had many issues keeping teachers. Not a program I would want for my kids, but to each his own. Just don’t complain when there isn’t enough $ to staff the programs or transport kids all over the county.

I can answer the test score question at least for French. So when they take their tests like MAP etc they are in English so the scores are very low in early elementary school because they don’t know how to read in English yet - I just pretty much disregarded them at that time. In their report card in elementary school it shows their reading level and then the standard goals for that quarter. The school would add in a piece of paper with the actual goals for the immersion kids which was lower in the beginning. believe they were all caught up with their English peers by the end of second grade. I remember being told by a teacher that after the early stages of elementary school their tests tend to exceed their non immersion peers.

[Anonymous]

So then how die they screen for those early elementary kids that have dyslexia or another reading disability? Seems like a big waste of resources if the plan for several years is just to ignore low test scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So then how die they screen for those early elementary kids that have dyslexia or another reading disability? Seems like a big waste of resources if the plan for several years is just to ignore low test scores.

I’m sure they still have ways to screen and are tracking and know what is typical and what is not. I just meant that as a parent I didn’t pay close attention to the scores early on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So then how die they screen for those early elementary kids that have dyslexia or another reading disability? Seems like a big waste of resources if the plan for several years is just to ignore low test scores.

I’m sure they still have ways to screen and are tracking and know what is typical and what is not. I just meant that as a parent I didn’t pay close attention to the scores early on.

DP, who has two kids, including one with dyslexia, in a TWI program: they don't do any special screening for learning disabilities. Most kids are identified in second or possibly first grade and they go from there. I know families who have moved their kid with dyslexia to non-TWI schools and families who have stayed with TWI.

Most kids don't have dyslexia. I do think it's on parents to be particularly vigilant if you have a kid in a TWI program, especially if they're at increased risk for dyslexia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have two kids in immersion. They make plenty of friends in immersion. Their English has not suffered.

This is us also.

I will say most kids continue the language in MS. By HS, 90% of Chinese immersion kids dropped out of the language class. In HS, most kids in the class are native speakers and maybe 3 immersion kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do the test scores for the McPs immersion schools compare to non-immersion schools? Specifically, are the immersion kids actually literate in either language?

Another thing to consider are the optics. Many white families jump through hoops to send their child from their home school that’s majority native Spanish speakers to a majorly black school where the only kids speaking Spanish are the immersion kids in their self-contained cohorts.

Lastly, how well can MCPS staff these programs? I’m unaware of the elem level, but I know White Oak has had many issues keeping teachers. Not a program I would want for my kids, but to each his own. Just don’t complain when there isn’t enough $ to staff the programs or transport kids all over the county.

I can answer the test score question at least for French. So when they take their tests like MAP etc they are in English so the scores are very low in early elementary school because they don’t know how to read in English yet - I just pretty much disregarded them at that time. In their report card in elementary school it shows their reading level and then the standard goals for that quarter. The school would add in a piece of paper with the actual goals for the immersion kids which was lower in the beginning. believe they were all caught up with their English peers by the end of second grade. I remember being told by a teacher that after the early stages of elementary school their tests tend to exceed their non immersion peers.

We didn't see the low MAP scores or English reading delay that PPs mentioned. And I'm not aware of any of my kids' friends in immersion having that issue. My kids did make some spelling mistakes in English early on but that resolved quickly (e.g., writing mi instead of me).

Overall, we haven't seen any downside to immersion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So then how die they screen for those early elementary kids that have dyslexia or another reading disability? Seems like a big waste of resources if the plan for several years is just to ignore low test scores.

I’m sure they still have ways to screen and are tracking and know what is typical and what is not. I just meant that as a parent I didn’t pay close attention to the scores early on.

DP, who has two kids, including one with dyslexia, in a TWI program: they don't do any special screening for learning disabilities. Most kids are identified in second or possibly first grade and they go from there. I know families who have moved their kid with dyslexia to non-TWI schools and families who have stayed with TWI.

Most kids don't have dyslexia. I do think it's on parents to be particularly vigilant if you have a kid in a TWI program, especially if they're at increased risk for dyslexia.

From the International Dyslexia Association:

https://dyslexiaida.org/dyslexia-basics-2/

“perhaps as many as 15–20% of the population as a whole—have some of the symptoms of dyslexia, including slow or inaccurate reading, poor spelling, poor writing, or mixing up similar words. Not all of these will qualify for special education, but they are likely to struggle with many aspects of academic learning and are likely to benefit from systematic, explicit, instruction in reading, writing, and language.”

Note that ALL children will learn to read using an explicit, systemic curriculum. MCPS is still struggling to do this in non-immersion programs and is even further behind in immersion programs. Any resources for reading lie mostly in K-2. It’s a huge disadvantage to ignore these issues during those years just because it’s an immersion program. But I guess if you have the privilege to navigate the MCPS school choice process you must have the resources to supplement academic instruction outside of school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So then how die they screen for those early elementary kids that have dyslexia or another reading disability? Seems like a big waste of resources if the plan for several years is just to ignore low test scores.

I’m sure they still have ways to screen and are tracking and know what is typical and what is not. I just meant that as a parent I didn’t pay close attention to the scores early on.

DP, who has two kids, including one with dyslexia, in a TWI program: they don't do any special screening for learning disabilities. Most kids are identified in second or possibly first grade and they go from there. I know families who have moved their kid with dyslexia to non-TWI schools and families who have stayed with TWI.

Most kids don't have dyslexia. I do think it's on parents to be particularly vigilant if you have a kid in a TWI program, especially if they're at increased risk for dyslexia.

From the International Dyslexia Association:

https://dyslexiaida.org/dyslexia-basics-2/

“perhaps as many as 15–20% of the population as a whole—have some of the symptoms of dyslexia, including slow or inaccurate reading, poor spelling, poor writing, or mixing up similar words. Not all of these will qualify for special education, but they are likely to struggle with many aspects of academic learning and are likely to benefit from systematic, explicit, instruction in reading, writing, and language.”

Note that ALL children will learn to read using an explicit, systemic curriculum. MCPS is still struggling to do this in non-immersion programs and is even further behind in immersion programs. Any resources for reading lie mostly in K-2. It’s a huge disadvantage to ignore these issues during those years just because it’s an immersion program. But I guess if you have the privilege to navigate the MCPS school choice process you must have the resources to supplement academic instruction outside of school.

You may not be able to hear this from your very high horse, but my immersion kid actually got explicit phonics instruction in the target language, as did all of their peers. It turns out that phonics instruction is actually easier in languages where letters and phenomes tend to follow predictable rules.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My child did not do immersion and is fine now. She spoke to a friend who did and they admitted that when they switched to a normal middle school, they had to do a lot of work catching up in terms of the english vocabulary everyone else had picked up naturally. I don't see there being a point, given that we live in an English speaking country and it will just put your kid behind later in life.

I realize this is anecdata, but for what it is worth, my kids attended the MS magnets (one at Eastern, one at TPMS) and both had good friends who had done language immersion in ES and who seemed to do just fine in terms of "English vocabulary." Those kids are all in HS now, and still thriving.

[Anonymous]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So then how die they screen for those early elementary kids that have dyslexia or another reading disability? Seems like a big waste of resources if the plan for several years is just to ignore low test scores.

I’m sure they still have ways to screen and are tracking and know what is typical and what is not. I just meant that as a parent I didn’t pay close attention to the scores early on.

DP, who has two kids, including one with dyslexia, in a TWI program: they don't do any special screening for learning disabilities. Most kids are identified in second or possibly first grade and they go from there. I know families who have moved their kid with dyslexia to non-TWI schools and families who have stayed with TWI.

Most kids don't have dyslexia. I do think it's on parents to be particularly vigilant if you have a kid in a TWI program, especially if they're at increased risk for dyslexia.

From the International Dyslexia Association:

https://dyslexiaida.org/dyslexia-basics-2/

“perhaps as many as 15–20% of the population as a whole—have some of the symptoms of dyslexia, including slow or inaccurate reading, poor spelling, poor writing, or mixing up similar words. Not all of these will qualify for special education, but they are likely to struggle with many aspects of academic learning and are likely to benefit from systematic, explicit, instruction in reading, writing, and language.”

Note that ALL children will learn to read using an explicit, systemic curriculum. MCPS is still struggling to do this in non-immersion programs and is even further behind in immersion programs. Any resources for reading lie mostly in K-2. It’s a huge disadvantage to ignore these issues during those years just because it’s an immersion program. But I guess if you have the privilege to navigate the MCPS school choice process you must have the resources to supplement academic instruction outside of school.

You may not be able to hear this from your very high horse, but my immersion kid actually got explicit phonics instruction in the target language, as did all of their peers. It turns out that phonics instruction is actually easier in languages where letters and phenomes tend to follow predictable rules.

+1

My dyslexic DC did very well in the immersion program long ago, and in fact is in graduate school abroad, where all of the work is in the second language.