Overriding local zoning to allow multi-family units in suburban neighborhoods in VA

[Anonymous]

When your constituents located in an area in order to live a suburban lifestyle--whether in single family homes or in townhouses located with lots of land, it seems odd that a delegate would be pushing to change that simply because he prefers an urban lifestyle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am in favor of property owners being allowed to build duplexes, and I find it difficult to think of any policy argument against it.

The following are not policy arguments:

-I don't want to live near a duplex.
-A duplex would be bad for my property value.
-Ew, duplexes.

That's because you're not thinking hard enough.

What happens if you're a homeowner in Virginia, and you know a developer sniffing around your place can now put a duplex on your lot? Answer: Your asking price just went way, way up. Why should the developer capture all the additional profits from suddenly being allowed to build duplexes on single-family home lots? If I'm a homeowner, I want some of that windfall money too.

But if the developer has to now pay a lot more for my place, he's going to make that up somewhere. Where do you think that might be? Ding, ding! That's right, he makes it up by charging way more for the units in the duplex he builds, which means housing prices go way up, which defeats the whole purpose of allowing duplexes in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am in favor of property owners being allowed to build duplexes, and I find it difficult to think of any policy argument against it.

The following are not policy arguments:

-I don't want to live near a duplex.
-A duplex would be bad for my property value.
-Ew, duplexes.

That's because you're not thinking hard enough.

What happens if you're a homeowner in Virginia, and you know a developer sniffing around your place can now put a duplex on your lot? Answer: Your asking price just went way, way up. Why should the developer capture all the additional profits from suddenly being allowed to build duplexes on single-family home lots? If I'm a homeowner, I want some of that windfall money too.

But if the developer has to now pay a lot more for my place, he's going to make that up somewhere. Where do you think that might be? Ding, ding! That's right, he makes it up by charging way more for the units in the duplex he builds, which means housing prices go way up, which defeats the whole purpose of allowing duplexes in the first place.

Wut? yes, the price of landPER ACRE goes up with upzoning - but its shared over more (in this case two) units so the land cost PER UNIT goes down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When your constituents located in an area in order to live a suburban lifestyle--whether in single family homes or in townhouses located with lots of land, it seems odd that a delegate would be pushing to change that simply because he prefers an urban lifestyle.

He's doing it because we have a housing cost crisis, not because he prefers an "urban style"

And again, a couple of townhomes is NOT an "urban style". Note, this would change zoning specifically in places where a pair of THs, or a SFH with an accessory unit, are not currently allowed.

[Anonymous]

Copying this question from another thread (it refers specifically to DC but you can swap in Arlington, for example, if you prefer):


Is there a coherent argument that loosening zoning laws will lead to affordable housing in DC?

I hear this constantly asserted, as if it were self-evidently true, but cannot figure out how it could possibly be correct.

There's 700,000 people in the District. There's 5 million in the suburbs. If you add 30,000 housing units in DC, they will instantly be soaked up by people in the suburbs looking for shorter commutes.

As people move into DC from Falls Church and Rockville and Fairfax, their old places will open up for other people. Other people will move into those places from suburbs even further out, which will open up slots in places like Chantilly or Columbia or wherever else those people are coming from and that would put downward pressure on housing prices in the suburbs they've left.

But how does any of that lead to affordable housing in DC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Copying this question from another thread (it refers specifically to DC but you can swap in Arlington, for example, if you prefer):


Is there a coherent argument that loosening zoning laws will lead to affordable housing in DC?

I hear this constantly asserted, as if it were self-evidently true, but cannot figure out how it could possibly be correct.

There's 700,000 people in the District. There's 5 million in the suburbs. If you add 30,000 housing units in DC, they will instantly be soaked up by people in the suburbs looking for shorter commutes.

As people move into DC from Falls Church and Rockville and Fairfax, their old places will open up for other people. Other people will move into those places from suburbs even further out, which will open up slots in places like Chantilly or Columbia or wherever else those people are coming from and that would put downward pressure on housing prices in the suburbs they've left.

But how does any of that lead to affordable housing in DC?

1. It was answered on that thread, but you seem to think spamming us with the same debunked arguments is persuasive

2. Its particularly stupid on this thread which is about a proposal that, as written, would impact state wide, not just Arlington

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Copying this question from another thread (it refers specifically to DC but you can swap in Arlington, for example, if you prefer):


Is there a coherent argument that loosening zoning laws will lead to affordable housing in DC?

I hear this constantly asserted, as if it were self-evidently true, but cannot figure out how it could possibly be correct.

There's 700,000 people in the District. There's 5 million in the suburbs. If you add 30,000 housing units in DC, they will instantly be soaked up by people in the suburbs looking for shorter commutes.

As people move into DC from Falls Church and Rockville and Fairfax, their old places will open up for other people. Other people will move into those places from suburbs even further out, which will open up slots in places like Chantilly or Columbia or wherever else those people are coming from and that would put downward pressure on housing prices in the suburbs they've left.

But how does any of that lead to affordable housing in DC?

1. It was answered on that thread, but you seem to think spamming us with the same debunked arguments is persuasive

2. Its particularly stupid on this thread which is about a proposal that, as written, would impact state wide, not just Arlington

what was the answer? no one ever answered it.

[Anonymous]

This thread is kind of moot since there's no chance this bill moves forward -- at least not now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Copying this question from another thread (it refers specifically to DC but you can swap in Arlington, for example, if you prefer):


Is there a coherent argument that loosening zoning laws will lead to affordable housing in DC?

I hear this constantly asserted, as if it were self-evidently true, but cannot figure out how it could possibly be correct.

There's 700,000 people in the District. There's 5 million in the suburbs. If you add 30,000 housing units in DC, they will instantly be soaked up by people in the suburbs looking for shorter commutes.

As people move into DC from Falls Church and Rockville and Fairfax, their old places will open up for other people. Other people will move into those places from suburbs even further out, which will open up slots in places like Chantilly or Columbia or wherever else those people are coming from and that would put downward pressure on housing prices in the suburbs they've left.

But how does any of that lead to affordable housing in DC?

1. It was answered on that thread, but you seem to think spamming us with the same debunked arguments is persuasive

2. Its particularly stupid on this thread which is about a proposal that, as written, would impact state wide, not just Arlington

They can say it's statewide but seeing how the DC metro area is the only place in Virginia where housing is expensive, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this "statewide" proposal is really just about the Va suburbs of DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Copying this question from another thread (it refers specifically to DC but you can swap in Arlington, for example, if you prefer):


Is there a coherent argument that loosening zoning laws will lead to affordable housing in DC?

I hear this constantly asserted, as if it were self-evidently true, but cannot figure out how it could possibly be correct.

There's 700,000 people in the District. There's 5 million in the suburbs. If you add 30,000 housing units in DC, they will instantly be soaked up by people in the suburbs looking for shorter commutes.

As people move into DC from Falls Church and Rockville and Fairfax, their old places will open up for other people. Other people will move into those places from suburbs even further out, which will open up slots in places like Chantilly or Columbia or wherever else those people are coming from and that would put downward pressure on housing prices in the suburbs they've left.

But how does any of that lead to affordable housing in DC?

1. It was answered on that thread, but you seem to think spamming us with the same debunked arguments is persuasive

2. Its particularly stupid on this thread which is about a proposal that, as written, would impact state wide, not just Arlington

what was the answer? no one ever answered it.

The answers I saw fell into three categories:

1. It won't do anything for affordability and this whole thing is a lie designed to make developers richer.

2. It won't do anything for affordability but that's okay because there are other reasons to support more density.

3. I don't like this question and I'm going to change the subject.

[Anonymous]

Great read: https://www.sightline.org/2019/06/30/oregon-just-voted-to-legalize-duplexes-on-almost-every-city-lot/

I'm not necessarily opposed to duplex homes...but the state should allow each county to create their own zoning laws regarding duplex homes - for example, duplex homes should be required to have driveways on both sides or large enough driveway for both homes on one side. If done right with proper zoning regulations....but another issues....

....aside from building "new" duplex homes on lots...what happens if you want to renovate your existing large home into a duplex structure where rather than side by side, it's upstairs/downstairs? Would that be a duplex or a multi-family home? What's the difference? Would this new zoning include multi-family homes?

This is where affordable housing comes in....someone who owns a McMansion could renovate and turn it into a duplex/multi-family home...they would rent the 2nd living space to a family with rent lower than what it would be for the entire house, thus making it more affordable.

[Anonymous]

PP here...when I say...as long as a duplex is "done right"...I site below plans as examples of duplex homes done right:

https://drummondhouseplans.com/plan/withman-traditional-1001591
https://www.dfdhouseplans.com/blog/duplex-house-plans-multi-family-living-at-its-best/

I see now issue with this so long as the lot is large enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Copying this question from another thread (it refers specifically to DC but you can swap in Arlington, for example, if you prefer):


Is there a coherent argument that loosening zoning laws will lead to affordable housing in DC?

I hear this constantly asserted, as if it were self-evidently true, but cannot figure out how it could possibly be correct.

There's 700,000 people in the District. There's 5 million in the suburbs. If you add 30,000 housing units in DC, they will instantly be soaked up by people in the suburbs looking for shorter commutes.

As people move into DC from Falls Church and Rockville and Fairfax, their old places will open up for other people. Other people will move into those places from suburbs even further out, which will open up slots in places like Chantilly or Columbia or wherever else those people are coming from and that would put downward pressure on housing prices in the suburbs they've left.

But how does any of that lead to affordable housing in DC?

1. It was answered on that thread, but you seem to think spamming us with the same debunked arguments is persuasive

2. Its particularly stupid on this thread which is about a proposal that, as written, would impact state wide, not just Arlington

They can say it's statewide but seeing how the DC metro area is the only place in Virginia where housing is expensive, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this "statewide" proposal is really just about the Va suburbs of DC.

Even if thats true (I am not sure it is) its certainly about more than Arlington. In fact it very clearly would impact the very places (like Chantilly) that the PP thinks people would come from.

NIMBYs don't seem able or willing to develop specific arguments for specific policies - they just have to throw the same rehashed memes at everything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Copying this question from another thread (it refers specifically to DC but you can swap in Arlington, for example, if you prefer):


Is there a coherent argument that loosening zoning laws will lead to affordable housing in DC?

I hear this constantly asserted, as if it were self-evidently true, but cannot figure out how it could possibly be correct.

There's 700,000 people in the District. There's 5 million in the suburbs. If you add 30,000 housing units in DC, they will instantly be soaked up by people in the suburbs looking for shorter commutes.

As people move into DC from Falls Church and Rockville and Fairfax, their old places will open up for other people. Other people will move into those places from suburbs even further out, which will open up slots in places like Chantilly or Columbia or wherever else those people are coming from and that would put downward pressure on housing prices in the suburbs they've left.

But how does any of that lead to affordable housing in DC?

1. It was answered on that thread, but you seem to think spamming us with the same debunked arguments is persuasive

2. Its particularly stupid on this thread which is about a proposal that, as written, would impact state wide, not just Arlington

what was the answer? no one ever answered it.

The answers I saw fell into three categories:

1. It won't do anything for affordability and this whole thing is a lie designed to make developers richer.

2. It won't do anything for affordability but that's okay because there are other reasons to support more density.

3. I don't like this question and I'm going to change the subject.

Obviously there are arguments that responded to it (whether you agree with those or not) The claim its a lie was obviously not a response but rhetoric, for which your question was a set up.

If you want a serious answer, go study "elasticity of demand"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Great read: https://www.sightline.org/2019/06/30/oregon-just-voted-to-legalize-duplexes-on-almost-every-city-lot/

I'm not necessarily opposed to duplex homes...but the state should allow each county to create their own zoning laws regarding duplex homes - for example, duplex homes should be required to have driveways on both sides or large enough driveway for both homes on one side. If done right with proper zoning regulations....but another issues....

....aside from building "new" duplex homes on lots...what happens if you want to renovate your existing large home into a duplex structure where rather than side by side, it's upstairs/downstairs? Would that be a duplex or a multi-family home? What's the difference? Would this new zoning include multi-family homes?

This is where affordable housing comes in....someone who owns a McMansion could renovate and turn it into a duplex/multi-family home...they would rent the 2nd living space to a family with rent lower than what it would be for the entire house, thus making it more affordable.

I just don't think it's likely anyone would renovate a McMansion into a duplex. You at least need to add a kitchen. If you were struggling to make the payments on your McMansion, you aren't going to be able to afford the renovation. And that's the problem with any of the arguments that this will benefit anyone but developers. And if a developer does the renovation, they aren't going to create affordable housing.