MCPS schools are segregated

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s bring in some charter schools (non-profit) to the east side of the county and see how they can help, both with overcrowding and achievement gap.

Aren't charter schools used as an end-run around desgregation?

No. And they’ve proven, in DC, to improve the test scores of FARMS students in both the Charters and the public schools. I assume this is because it alleviates overcrowding. We need to fix things for these kids now. Not wait the many years it takes for mcps to build new schools etc.

No. DC resident here. They're essentially a way for white/educated families to avoid their majority minority inboundary school. Charters siphon off the well-resourced families and perpetuate segregated schools.

And I'd love to see some statistics on charters and test scores, because I thought only KIPP had a winning formula. Other charters don't show better performance when broken down by demographics--for example, Creative Minds has a large proportion of UMC white families, and their test scores are still poor across groups.

PP again. I do think that charters had a useful role 10-15 years ago, in keeping families in DC that would otherwise have fled to the suburbs. But in most cases, I think they've outlived their usefulness. They directly compete with DCPS, as in the case of a STEM-focused charter opening across the street from a STEM-focused DCPS.

Isn’t competition a good thing? I think DCPS has improved in large part because of that. Aren’t we almost in the same place as DC was 15 years ago? Except people are fleeing back to DC (it sounds good to me too).


Some poorly performing charters have been shut down. I think there's a role for certain niche charters--like those that focus on language immersion, the arts, etc.--but think that most others are no longer needed. They contribute to traffic problems and a lack of community, as families can avoid their neighborhood school in favor of the shiny object across town.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Four pages of people explicitly defending segregated schools.

But MCPS is not responsible for housing policies. They are trying to de-segregate as much as they can by busing, much to the disgust of many parents. What exactly is the school district supposed to do about the fact there are very few low income housing in certain parts of the county? How can the school district force wealthier parents to live in the poorer parts of the county?

Heading on to five pages of people explicitly defending segregated schools...

? How am I defending it? I'm saying school districts can't do much about housing policies. And you didn't answer the questions. If you can answer that $64K question of how the school district can change housing policies, then you should run for the school board since you seem to think you have the answers.

And I don't live in a W cluster.

School districts can do a lot about school policies, though.

It seems to me that people are making assumptions that the school board can control certain things which they cannot. In MoCo, housing values are based on schools. The better the schools, the higher the housing costs. Redistribute an ES with a lot of minorities to a W school and over time the neighborhoods that feed into that ES will trend wealthier and the poorer current residents will be forced out due to increasing rents. If they want more diversity in the W schools then the county should buy large tracts of land and build low income high rise apartment blocks in places like Potomac and Bethesda. I’m all for that, get low income people into the higher performing schools. I’m not for that. I’m not for creating future islands of wealth in a misguided attempt at social engineering that’s doomed to failure. It feels a little bit like the school board wants to play a game of housing lottery. I would wager some of their houses will magically appreciate from the final decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find this to be very true. My dd's elementary school, 73% white. Her middle school 63% white. Her high school was 52% white. Both middle and elementary schools are still 9 on great schools, high school has dropped to 6 this year. DD just started college. And this is one of "less" segregated areas in MCPS. New town-homes and houses built in the last 2 years were sold for 500K and 800K respectively. I can't imagine that socioeconomic distribution is equal, not even close. DD had white and black friends, but very few Hispanic friends in HS. They are predominantly poor, according to dd and do not do well in school. I think this tells us that school groups are segregated within the school too. I am in favor of busing and desegregation in MoCo. Only good things will come out of it. Rich parents will still pay for their kids tutors and enrichment even if their kids are attending Einstein, rich white parents should have nothing to fear when it comes to desegregating schools and even busing. The backlash here is pure racism, nothing else. Even the most enlightened limousine liberals still get scared when they see a person of color near them. If you don't want your kids to end up racist, you need to expose them to diversity. Only hearing real life stories from kids "unlike" them, who are really just like them, like all of us,be it black, Hispanic, poor or rich, will make your kids open minded and realize the very real racial and economic divide in the country. If your kids stay in your lily white neighborhood they will end up racist, there is no doubt of that at all.

FYI, from talking to kids in even more diverse high schools, the groups are still self-segregating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Four pages of people explicitly defending segregated schools.

But MCPS is not responsible for housing policies. They are trying to de-segregate as much as they can by busing, much to the disgust of many parents. What exactly is the school district supposed to do about the fact there are very few low income housing in certain parts of the county? How can the school district force wealthier parents to live in the poorer parts of the county?

Heading on to five pages of people explicitly defending segregated schools...

? How am I defending it? I'm saying school districts can't do much about housing policies. And you didn't answer the questions. If you can answer that $64K question of how the school district can change housing policies, then you should run for the school board since you seem to think you have the answers.

And I don't live in a W cluster.

School districts can do a lot about school policies, though.

It seems to me that people are making assumptions that the school board can control certain things which they cannot. In MoCo, housing values are based on schools. The better the schools, the higher the housing costs. Redistribute an ES with a lot of minorities to a W school and over time the neighborhoods that feed into that ES will trend wealthier and the poorer current residents will be forced out due to increasing rents. If they want more diversity in the W schools then the county should buy large tracts of land and build low income high rise apartment blocks in places like Potomac and Bethesda. I’m all for that, get low income people into the higher performing schools. I’m not for that. I’m not for creating future islands of wealth in a misguided attempt at social engineering that’s doomed to failure. It feels a little bit like the school board wants to play a game of housing lottery. I would wager some of their houses will magically appreciate from the final decision.

"The better the schools" = the fewer poor/black/Latino kids at the school = the more segregated the schools.

People who say that the school board can't do anything about segregated schools because it's all about housing are defending segregated schools.

[Anonymous]

So stay with me for a minute ... let’s bring in (diverse) charters like KIPP and keep them as long as we need them. Like they did in DC. Diversify neighborhoods over time and that will lead to desegregated public schools. But more importantly, let’s educate the kids in these areas now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find this to be very true. My dd's elementary school, 73% white. Her middle school 63% white. Her high school was 52% white. Both middle and elementary schools are still 9 on great schools, high school has dropped to 6 this year. DD just started college. And this is one of "less" segregated areas in MCPS. New town-homes and houses built in the last 2 years were sold for 500K and 800K respectively. I can't imagine that socioeconomic distribution is equal, not even close. DD had white and black friends, but very few Hispanic friends in HS. They are predominantly poor, according to dd and do not do well in school. I think this tells us that school groups are segregated within the school too. I am in favor of busing and desegregation in MoCo. Only good things will come out of it. Rich parents will still pay for their kids tutors and enrichment even if their kids are attending Einstein, rich white parents should have nothing to fear when it comes to desegregating schools and even busing. The backlash here is pure racism, nothing else. Even the most enlightened limousine liberals still get scared when they see a person of color near them. If you don't want your kids to end up racist, you need to expose them to diversity. Only hearing real life stories from kids "unlike" them, who are really just like them, like all of us,be it black, Hispanic, poor or rich, will make your kids open minded and realize the very real racial and economic divide in the country. If your kids stay in your lily white neighborhood they will end up racist, there is no doubt of that at all.

FYI, from talking to kids in even more diverse high schools, the groups are still self-segregating.

Yes, that's always the defense on DCUM. There's no point to desegregated schools, because the kids will just self-segregate anyway, so why bother?!

[Anonymous]

This isn’t a problem that developed over night and it’s not going to be solved over night either. We need to look more long term at this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So stay with me for a minute ... let’s bring in (diverse) charters like KIPP and keep them as long as we need them. Like they did in DC. Diversify neighborhoods over time and that will lead to desegregated public schools. But more importantly, let’s educate the kids in these areas now.

There is nothing diverse about KIPP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So stay with me for a minute ... let’s bring in (diverse) charters like KIPP and keep them as long as we need them. Like they did in DC. Diversify neighborhoods over time and that will lead to desegregated public schools. But more importantly, let’s educate the kids in these areas now.

There is nothing diverse about KIPP.

+1 KIPP and Success Academy models also have enormous problems, including multiple instances of corporal discipline in the classroom, and outrageous violations of student rights (such as being so rigid with bathroom breaks that teenaged girls bleed through their uniforms).

No thank you.

[Anonymous]

Bethesda Elementary is a good case example for why forced integration will most likely not change the achievement gap. For those who don't know, BES is in downtown Bethesda, in the middle of "affluenza," with a 7.6% FARMS rate. In the most recent report card, 70.3% of the overall student body was proficient in mathematics. The African-American percent proficient was 23.1% and the Latino was 55.3%. Asian was 89.7%. Look at any similar down-county school and you'll see these cross-tabs repeated. These are kids surrounded by children of high achievers, and yet, it doesn't seem to be helping. What else can a school do to close the "achievement gap"? Blindfold the asian kids? Send social workers home with the Hispanic and Af-Am kids to change the learning environment? These are structural, systemic problems that probably won't go away by remixing school populations. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find this to be very true. My dd's elementary school, 73% white. Her middle school 63% white. Her high school was 52% white. Both middle and elementary schools are still 9 on great schools, high school has dropped to 6 this year. DD just started college. And this is one of "less" segregated areas in MCPS. New town-homes and houses built in the last 2 years were sold for 500K and 800K respectively. I can't imagine that socioeconomic distribution is equal, not even close. DD had white and black friends, but very few Hispanic friends in HS. They are predominantly poor, according to dd and do not do well in school. I think this tells us that school groups are segregated within the school too. I am in favor of busing and desegregation in MoCo. Only good things will come out of it. Rich parents will still pay for their kids tutors and enrichment even if their kids are attending Einstein, rich white parents should have nothing to fear when it comes to desegregating schools and even busing. The backlash here is pure racism, nothing else. Even the most enlightened limousine liberals still get scared when they see a person of color near them. If you don't want your kids to end up racist, you need to expose them to diversity. Only hearing real life stories from kids "unlike" them, who are really just like them, like all of us,be it black, Hispanic, poor or rich, will make your kids open minded and realize the very real racial and economic divide in the country. If your kids stay in your lily white neighborhood they will end up racist, there is no doubt of that at all.

FYI, from talking to kids in even more diverse high schools, the groups are still self-segregating.

Yes, that's always the defense on DCUM. There's no point to desegregated schools, because the kids will just self-segregate anyway, so why bother?!

I’ve recently been made aware of a school in NoVa that has a very low white/Asian population yet they’re the only ones that perform well. They take all the harder classes and “desegregation” has not seemed to help at all. Scroll on down to the race/ethnicity section and see for yourself. That is basically 2 schools: 1 with all the white kids in white classes and another with Hispanics and blacks in the other (regular) classes. Tell me, how is it working out there?

https://www.greatschools.org/virginia/manassas/1049-Osbourn-High-School/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find this to be very true. My dd's elementary school, 73% white. Her middle school 63% white. Her high school was 52% white. Both middle and elementary schools are still 9 on great schools, high school has dropped to 6 this year. DD just started college. And this is one of "less" segregated areas in MCPS. New town-homes and houses built in the last 2 years were sold for 500K and 800K respectively. I can't imagine that socioeconomic distribution is equal, not even close. DD had white and black friends, but very few Hispanic friends in HS. They are predominantly poor, according to dd and do not do well in school. I think this tells us that school groups are segregated within the school too. I am in favor of busing and desegregation in MoCo. Only good things will come out of it. Rich parents will still pay for their kids tutors and enrichment even if their kids are attending Einstein, rich white parents should have nothing to fear when it comes to desegregating schools and even busing. The backlash here is pure racism, nothing else. Even the most enlightened limousine liberals still get scared when they see a person of color near them. If you don't want your kids to end up racist, you need to expose them to diversity. Only hearing real life stories from kids "unlike" them, who are really just like them, like all of us,be it black, Hispanic, poor or rich, will make your kids open minded and realize the very real racial and economic divide in the country. If your kids stay in your lily white neighborhood they will end up racist, there is no doubt of that at all.

FYI, from talking to kids in even more diverse high schools, the groups are still self-segregating.

To some extent, sure. But these groups are nonetheless likely doing better than they would in schools that are 100% black/Latino.

Desegregation efforts do move the needle on academic outcomes--it doesn't work as well as we'd all like, but it doesn't mean it should be done away with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So stay with me for a minute ... let’s bring in (diverse) charters like KIPP and keep them as long as we need them. Like they did in DC. Diversify neighborhoods over time and that will lead to desegregated public schools. But more importantly, let’s educate the kids in these areas now.

There is nothing diverse about KIPP.

+1 KIPP and Success Academy models also have enormous problems, including multiple instances of corporal discipline in the classroom, and outrageous violations of student rights (such as being so rigid with bathroom breaks that teenaged girls bleed through their uniforms).

No thank you.

Just don’t understand why we aren’t looking at what has clearly been successful in DC. They’ve made neighborhoods more diverse (adding UMC kids) and increased property values because of those charters. Just sayin’ ... you can bring more affordable housing to Potomac but also need a way to bring UMC kids to more parts of the county. It needs to go both ways folks.

[Anonymous]

Pretend there’s some amazing charter that goes in somewhere (non-W School cluster) in the county. Then some developer decides to build new houses on some blighted commercial property next to the charter school. Are people going to buy those? Yes. Will property values of other homes close to that charter also improve? Yes.

Little by little, diversity of income comes to that part of the county. Once charter has served its purpose there, move it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So stay with me for a minute ... let’s bring in (diverse) charters like KIPP and keep them as long as we need them. Like they did in DC. Diversify neighborhoods over time and that will lead to desegregated public schools. But more importantly, let’s educate the kids in these areas now.

There is nothing diverse about KIPP.

+1 KIPP and Success Academy models also have enormous problems, including multiple instances of corporal discipline in the classroom, and outrageous violations of student rights (such as being so rigid with bathroom breaks that teenaged girls bleed through their uniforms).

No thank you.

Just don’t understand why we aren’t looking at what has clearly been successful in DC. They’ve made neighborhoods more diverse (adding UMC kids) and increased property values because of those charters. Just sayin’ ... you can bring more affordable housing to Potomac but also need a way to bring UMC kids to more parts of the county. It needs to go both ways folks.

The charters that do a good job raising test scores in poor kids do not attract UMC families in DC. They have a reputation for being pretty authoritarian and rigid, and I don't think many UMC folks find that appealing.