What are the odds OOB feeder rights will end?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Not the PP you're slamming. I like posts that present the unvarnished truth about schools that have become heavily UMC quickly, however inconvenient and non PC the sentiments expressed might be.

There's no denying that poor kids are doing a lot better collectively in KIPP type charters than in traditional public schools. This issue isn't race, it's class in a city with vast income disparities.

Unless DCPS is willing to get more adults in the buildings and to pay for extended day and year options for poor kids in traditional public schools with support from the teachers union (not happening) these problems, and solutions, are real. You can pretend they aren't real to suit your politics, PP, without anybody benefiting.

You seem confused and to be presenting a false dichotomy.

Kids don't do better in heavily segregated schools where everyone is poor. Research is clear on that. What the PP that I was responding to was arguing against however, was not that.

PP was concern trolling that poor kids will be overwhelmed and socially outcast going to good schools with wealthy students ("...at-risk kids pretty clearly belong in schools set up to serve needy kids, vs. schools serving hundreds of UMC students". This is an explicit call for segregation, and presents as undisputed fact a fringe assertion that's 100% disproved by all evidence over the past 60 years.

This exact argument was made in the 50s as a reason not to de-segregate schools, and it was widely recognized as what it is: paternalistic and racist (in that it assumes poor kids can't handle going to wealthy, high achieving schools). Since that time, mountains of evidence have shown that going to integrated, well functioning schools is the single best thing for poor kids from segregated schools. Integrating local schools and also busing -- which racists succeeded in branding as a failure -- worked, absolutely and indisputably in terms of improving outcomes for black kids and communities.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/10/23/forced-busing-didnt-fail-desegregation-is-the-best-way-to-improve-our-schools
https://chalkbeat.org/posts/us/2019/07/01/busing-for-school-integration-succeed-work-research/
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kamala-harris-joe-biden-busing-louisville_n_5d2ceff0e4b0bca60364197f

Get a life. In this City, KIPP scores for at-risk kids are higher than scores in traditional public schools.

Comparing aggregate test scores for a cohort of kids who are attending their default public school to aggregate test scores for a cohort of kids whose parents have gone through the lottery and then undertake the effort to get them to a charter school every day is not an apples to apples comparison given that parental achievement/involvement is the #1 predictor of academic success. Ever heard of selection bias? Based on the level of familiarity with data demonstrated so far in this thread, I'm guessing not.

+1. Families who elect to apply to a charter are not the same as those in the general populace. This means the extent to which KIPP is doing something specific to raise test scores--vs. the contribution of particularly motivated & stable families--is unclear.

So, I don't think that's true, because KIPP has a proven track record of doing -- in many different sites, with many different teachers, subject only to random lottery luck -- what almost no other charter schools in DC do: consistently get good tests scores from poor children. Of course there is selection bias in charter v IB/default and there may even be selection bias in KIPP v other charter v better IB, but I doubt the selection bias that exists in that latter case is 100% responsible for the rings KIPP runs around other charters/most IBs. That said, I completely agree w/ the first sentence of your post and that, long-term, integration is the single most successful way to close the achievement gap... I just don't think that in a school system that still has a massive achievement gap, the KIPP success story for the left behinds is purely illusory.

PP here, fair points re: KIPP's performance vs. other charters.

Would you (or anyone) happen to know of any studies that compares the KIPP model to what I'll call an "integration" model (i.e., sending poor kids to middle/upper middle class schools)? For example, a KIPP school vs. a JKLM.
I'd imagine the latter would get comparable outcomes out of these kids, but I don't know if any studies have specifically compared these models.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The data also shows that high SES students/whites aren't hurt by integrated classrooms. Not buying it. Two or three of the half dozen public housing project denizens in my kid's 3rd grade classroom EotP were a real problem this past school year, sucking up a great deal of the classroom teacher's time, focus and energy.

You will appreciate how I am arguing using facts in the real world when I state that she was hurt by having these kids in her class, particularly on the day when one of them slugged her in the mouth and cussed her out. The kid wasn't punished or even removed from the class on that day - he was simply made to apologize.

My child was bored in her reading group, and not particularly challenged in math, even as the poor teacher battled to get, and keep the several disruptive and academically disastrous SES kids on track emotionally and academically. We're planning to give DCPS one more year. If things don't improve, we're gone.

This story is what's technically known as an "anecdote." While I'm sure it's deeply meaningful to you, it's not useful for making policy.

Here's another anecdote -- my grandpa smoke like a chimney and drank like a fish his whole life. He lived to 95, at which point he died peacefully in his sleep. What policy choices shall we make based on Granpa's experience?

The data shows that high SES whites don't have lower test scores or worse outcomes through graduate school by going to integrated schools. You can "not buy it", but that's what's happening in the actual real world.

It's interesting to see that you're not pretending that you're not pro-segregation. I don't think I've interacted with an actual avowed segregationist since my kindergarten class was integrated in 1970 in the south.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a parent at an EotP elementary school (rising 4th grader). I hate OOB discussions on DCUM. Posters frame OOB kids with the nastiest stereotypes. Many of my kid’s friends are OOB and they are wonderful kids with great parents. These are actual people you are maligning.

I’m replying to my post. I believe most of you posting nasty comments have no actual first hand experience and are trolls, especially those using SJW. The OoB kids at my child’s school are great and their parents are too. I’m happy they’re at our school!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The data also shows that high SES students/whites aren't hurt by integrated classrooms. Not buying it. Two or three of the half dozen public housing project denizens in my kid's 3rd grade classroom EotP were a real problem this past school year, sucking up a great deal of the classroom teacher's time, focus and energy.

You will appreciate how I am arguing using facts in the real world when I state that she was hurt by having these kids in her class, particularly on the day when one of them slugged her in the mouth and cussed her out. The kid wasn't punished or even removed from the class on that day - he was simply made to apologize.

My child was bored in her reading group, and not particularly challenged in math, even as the poor teacher battled to get, and keep the several disruptive and academically disastrous SES kids on track emotionally and academically. We're planning to give DCPS one more year. If things don't improve, we're gone.

This story is what's technically known as an "anecdote." While I'm sure it's deeply meaningful to you, it's not useful for making policy.

Here's another anecdote -- my grandpa smoke like a chimney and drank like a fish his whole life. He lived to 95, at which point he died peacefully in his sleep. What policy choices shall we make based on Granpa's experience?

The data shows that high SES whites don't have lower test scores or worse outcomes through graduate school by going to integrated schools. You can "not buy it", but that's what's happening in the actual real world.

It's interesting to see that you're not pretending that you're not pro-segregation. I don't think I've interacted with an actual avowed segregationist since my kindergarten class was integrated in 1970 in the south.

The data also shows that ALL kids have lower test scores or worse outcomes when classes are overcrowded. That’s the problem WOTP. Class sizes are either way overcrowded or artificially lowered by turning coat closets into classrooms. There just isn’t room for OOB students in Ward 3, especially since most EOTP schools are under enrolled. If it makes you feel any better, maybe DCPS could just start reassigning the white OOB kids? That would be a start.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The data also shows that high SES students/whites aren't hurt by integrated classrooms. Not buying it. Two or three of the half dozen public housing project denizens in my kid's 3rd grade classroom EotP were a real problem this past school year, sucking up a great deal of the classroom teacher's time, focus and energy.

You will appreciate how I am arguing using facts in the real world when I state that she was hurt by having these kids in her class, particularly on the day when one of them slugged her in the mouth and cussed her out. The kid wasn't punished or even removed from the class on that day - he was simply made to apologize.

My child was bored in her reading group, and not particularly challenged in math, even as the poor teacher battled to get, and keep the several disruptive and academically disastrous SES kids on track emotionally and academically. We're planning to give DCPS one more year. If things don't improve, we're gone.

This story is what's technically known as an "anecdote." While I'm sure it's deeply meaningful to you, it's not useful for making policy.

Here's another anecdote -- my grandpa smoke like a chimney and drank like a fish his whole life. He lived to 95, at which point he died peacefully in his sleep. What policy choices shall we make based on Granpa's experience?

The data shows that high SES whites don't have lower test scores or worse outcomes through graduate school by going to integrated schools. You can "not buy it", but that's what's happening in the actual real world.

It's interesting to see that you're not pretending that you're not pro-segregation. I don't think I've interacted with an actual avowed segregationist since my kindergarten class was integrated in 1970 in the south.

Don't have worse outcomes, BS. When your kid's teacher is knocking himself or herself out to help a cohort of classmates working one, two, even three grade levels behind most of the class what happens is that you, the professional parent, picks up the slack at home. Outcomes aren't worse through grad school because you work hard, and pay plenty, to ensure that they aren't. The process is tiring and expensive and we've almost had enough of all the supplementing needed to ensure that our kids are happy and challenged in public school.

Call me an avowed skeptic. At this stage, I've had more than enough of being dictated to by those without children in one of the nation's lowest-performing urban school districts for many years like I have. We aren't even white, we're Asian.

[Anonymous]

You know the truth is that we’d rather be with mixed peer groups and have our kids get a backstop at home than put our kids in a segregated school with some acceleration. To date our two are doing quite well and are still with their friends since PK3. (Since we’re doing this, white/Hispanic family.)

[Anonymous]

I hear you, within reason. But too many needy low SES classmates in large classes and all the supplementing can become oppressive. I didn't mind it in the lower grades, but we're not planning to stay at our EotP DCPS for 5th grade. I'll leave it to the avowedly pro-integrationist to supplement like mad open-endedly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I hear you, within reason. But too many needy low SES classmates in large classes and all the supplementing can become oppressive. I didn't mind it in the lower grades, but we're not planning to stay at our EotP DCPS for 5th grade. I'll leave it to the avowedly pro-integrationist to supplement like mad open-endedly.

The research that shows that high SES students don't have worse outcomes from being in integrated classes indicates that there is a tipping point at around, if I recall correctly, 20% of the class. Beyond that point, if I understand the research right, outcomes for low SES kids suffer, although outcomes for high SES kids don't suffer as one might expect, likely due to parents supplementing outside of the classroom.

Also, some of that research may have been done before the current inclusion model for special ed, which puts an added burden on classroom teachers and could shift that tipping point.

The existence of this tipping point suggests to me that just integrating DC schools -- spreading high SES kids evenly throughout DC schools won't do much to improve outcomes for low SES DC kids. To do get a benefit, you'd need to include VA and MD schools. It does, however, suggest that OOB access for a limited number of kids to high SES schools (mostly WOTP) is helpful to the low SES OOB kids and probably one of the best realistic interventions available, although the same selection bias issue will be there as for charter kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hear you, within reason. But too many needy low SES classmates in large classes and all the supplementing can become oppressive. I didn't mind it in the lower grades, but we're not planning to stay at our EotP DCPS for 5th grade. I'll leave it to the avowedly pro-integrationist to supplement like mad open-endedly.

The research that shows that high SES students don't have worse outcomes from being in integrated classes indicates that there is a tipping point at around, if I recall correctly, 20% of the class. Beyond that point, if I understand the research right, outcomes for low SES kids suffer, although outcomes for high SES kids don't suffer as one might expect, likely due to parents supplementing outside of the classroom.

Also, some of that research may have been done before the current inclusion model for special ed, which puts an added burden on classroom teachers and could shift that tipping point.

The existence of this tipping point suggests to me that just integrating DC schools -- spreading high SES kids evenly throughout DC schools won't do much to improve outcomes for low SES DC kids. To do get a benefit, you'd need to include VA and MD schools. It does, however, suggest that OOB access for a limited number of kids to high SES schools (mostly WOTP) is helpful to the low SES OOB kids and probably one of the best realistic interventions available, although the same selection bias issue will be there as for charter kids.

And this is really the crux of the issue. There is only two middle schools and one high school that are able to pull this off. What is the city doing to re-create another area like this in the city? The answer is nothing due to the politics involved, which is why I know the city isn't serious about tackling this issue. If the city could create one more strong feeder pattern K-12, then maybe in 10 years, they could create a third one.

[Anonymous]

eyond that point, if I understand the research right, outcomes for low SES kids suffer, although outcomes for high SES kids don't suffer as one might expect, likely due to parents supplementing outside of the classroom.

I think you missed that it was a tipping point in outcomes for low socioeconomic status WHITE kids. Thing is, DC has essentially none.

[Anonymous]

Overcrowding leads to lower outcomes for all students, more so for lower SES due to the lack of supplementation/enrichment outside of school.

Can DC achieve integrated schools that are not overcrowded?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Overcrowding leads to lower outcomes for all students, more so for lower SES due to the lack of supplementation/enrichment outside of school.

Can DC achieve integrated schools that are not overcrowded?

The city can't have all their schools become economically integrated unless a lot more high-income kids move into DC and more of the ones who are already here choose public vs. private school, and/or a lot more low-income kids move out of DC.

However, they could have a lot more schools that are no more than, say, 25% at risk if they changed their boundary and enrollment policies. The problem is that the families who would be moved from schools with 8% at risk to schools with 25% at risk FREAK OUT at losing what they think they have a right to, and elected officials often don't have the courage to tell those families to suck it up.

[Anonymous]

I'd gladly "suck it up" if the needy low SES kids in my children's school and their families were getting the services they need, including remedial classes, to keep me from having to half home school my child to provide appropriate challenge and rigor.

Good luck trying to force UMC parents who can and will vote with their feet for good schools to suck much of anything up.

[Anonymous]

I see the boundary review is gonna be the same as it was last time. Property values and self centered arguments masquerading as concern for poor kids. If you’d put others at the center of your life you wouldn’t argue this way. I guess that was never really a popular perspective on moral issues, in the end.

[Anonymous]

Just piping in to say that while yes, many of the struggling students in the city are at-risk, others are not. There is no reason you should assume that an at-risk student who attends your school is going to need remedial classes.

They may, however, need more counseling and support because they have almost certainly been through more trauma and less secure childhoods than some of us can imagine.