What's up with Piney Branch?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Race is only useful as it is a proxy for SES. Standardized test averages mainly tell us about an area's affluence. School's like Wooton or Churchill have very low FARMs rates. There's no reason to believe that low-income students would do better there than any other school.

Actually low income students do do better at schools like Churchill and Wootton. There are fewer students who struggle to reach grade level and more resources to help them. Many of the FARMS students do reach grade level on their own. I used to work at a school that had only 9% FARMS students but the # of kids performing below grade level was under 6%. Within the 6% below grade level, they were not all FARMS kids but a combination of FARMS and kids with learning disabilities that needed extra help which they all received.

From a race standpoint while the number of black students was not high at the school, many were as wealthy or wealthier as the white students and performed just as well. For a black student, there was no expectation that they would not do as well because the majority of the other students who looked like them didn't do well. Because the school was very international, the black students mixed with whites and other races. In school that have a large population of black students who are also poor it can create stereotypes that pull everyone down.

All 3 of them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Not sure that's great advice. This problem exists throughout the county especially on this particular statistic, 5th-grade math on PARCC. Here are a few scores off GS for schools that otherwise do well. This problem isn't limited to your school just more pronounced because it's more diverse.

Rock Creek Forest
Black 11%

Chevy Chase Elementary
Black 20%

Garret Park Elementary
Black 21%

Wish the county could do more to close the achivement gap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: think people were looking at 5th grade math because that's the metric OP used, based on her concerns about her Black child entering Piney Branch. But, let's look at something else. I guess the opposite of 5th grade math is 3rd grade English, right? So here are the scores for that group.

Piney Branch - met and exceeded

Black - 19%

Hispanic - 25%

Rolling Terrace - met and exceeded

Black - 19%

Hispanic - 11%

East Silver Spring - met and exceeded

Black - 43%

Hispanic - 40%

Flora Singer - met and exceeded

Black - 47%

Hispanic - 17%

None of this is meant to get into a pissing match over which ES is "best" but OP has a very legitimate concern as the parent to a kid of color. The resistance on this thread to acknowledging her concern as legitimate is troubling.

To me, and I am not highly trained in statistics, it looks like ESS is doing something "right" - I don't know if you can compare the demographics of PB and Flora Singer as particularly equivalent. That's part of why I wonder if it's the small school size that makes a difference at ESS. Flora Singer had 19 African American 3rd graders tested. PB had 80. That's pretty different demographics.

If you're highly trained in statistics, you're aware there are a couple of problems with these statistics. They are allegedly based on a test that's been discredited and specifically for results for 5th-grade math only. The OP picked them specifically to make their case. This is often referred to as cherry-picking and is now way representative of anything.

OP here again. I looked at other grades and scores and they all looked bad. For purposes of my post I tried to pick one stat as an example that I thought was "fair" to the schools. To me, 5th grade math seemed like a fair data point because I assumed a 3rd-grader's test results could be more a function of where they went to school previously or what they learned at home than the scores of a 5th grader. Maybe that's wrong, but as the PP showed, that data point is also bad for Piney Branch! And I picked math because I thought language access issues might not be as acute on a math test (i.e., a person with limited English skills could do well on a math test, but it might be more difficult to do well on a test based on your English language skills). If someone could show me the "non-cherry-picked" statistics that shows Piney Branch is not doing much much worse at educating black children than ESS I'd be happy to see that! Really though, I'd love to know what's behind the difference in scores, because from my (untrained) perspective I am concerned and I can't explain these scores just from SES. Maybe folks are right that it's just ESS doing an exceptionally good job, or that the lower student count makes it easier to teach. If that is the case though, it does make me question my belief that the larger school size will not negatively affect my child's learning. I want to know if I'm making a mistake thinking my child will get a good education at Piney Branch. Maybe I need to be thinking more seriously about private school.

Anyway, I appreciate the people who recognize that I'm just trying to understand what's going on because I have a black son that would go to Piney Branch rather than thinking I have some nefarious purpose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Not sure that's great advice. This problem exists throughout the county especially on this particular statistic, 5th-grade math on PARCC. Here are a few scores off GS for schools that otherwise do well. This problem isn't limited to your school just more pronounced because it's more diverse.

Rock Creek Forest
Black 11%

Chevy Chase Elementary
Black 20%

Garret Park Elementary
Black 21%

Wish the county could do more to close the achivement gap.

OP again. I think you're right that this is a problem at many schools. I guess I was just surprised when I saw the ESS stats that there was such a difference. Maybe if I had looked at other schools I wouldn't have been as worried that there was something Piney Branch specifically wasn't doing right. On the one hand I think we do a good job at educating our son and he's very bright, but I wonder about whether he will not get the education he needs/deserves at schools where such a high percentage of black students are failing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Not sure that's great advice. This problem exists throughout the county especially on this particular statistic, 5th-grade math on PARCC. Here are a few scores off GS for schools that otherwise do well. This problem isn't limited to your school just more pronounced because it's more diverse.

Rock Creek Forest
Black 11%

Chevy Chase Elementary
Black 20%

Garret Park Elementary
Black 21%

Wish the county could do more to close the achivement gap.

OP again. I think you're right that this is a problem at many schools. I guess I was just surprised when I saw the ESS stats that there was such a difference. Maybe if I had looked at other schools I wouldn't have been as worried that there was something Piney Branch specifically wasn't doing right. On the one hand I think we do a good job at educating our son and he's very bright, but I wonder about whether he will not get the education he needs/deserves at schools where such a high percentage of black students are failing.

Hi OP - I'm the PP who has a son currently at PBES but not in CES. FWIW - there are many children of color who come from middle-upper class families (parents are teachers, NGO staff, doctors, attorneys, other feds, etc) and those kids are doing just as well, if not better than lots of white kids. I don't know your SES but I think family income level is much more a factor than race alone.

[Anonymous]

I was too leery of ESS to send my own AA DC there. I wasn’t alone in our pre-school cohort. Now that the kids are at TPMS together, I’m seeing some great achievement out of DC’s peers who were at ESS. That said, nearly all are African or Caribbean immigrants, not African American. The parents are often well-educated in their home countries and have a great network of support that they call on to help the kids. One of DC’s best friends has Skype tutoring with an uncle in Paris!

I would like to see the county disagregate the data to distinguish between black students who are first or second gen AA and those who had grandparents that grew up under Jim Crow. I think there’s likely a disparity in outcomes there. If so, tailored responses should be put in place.

There are also a lot of kids hidden in the MU category (for two or more races) that have the same ancestry as other kids registered as AA. My own child has been categorized in both by MCPS at two different times. I think that impacts the data as well, taking out high flyers who might self-identify as AA, regardless of what their parents put on the form when they entered MCPS at 5 years old.

[Anonymous]

Hi OP - I'm the PP who has a son currently at PBES but not in CES. FWIW - there are many children of color who come from middle-upper class families (parents are teachers, NGO staff, doctors, attorneys, other feds, etc) and those kids are doing just as well, if not better than lots of white kids. I don't know your SES but I think family income level is much more a factor than race alone.

Except the data the OP found doesn't support your anecdote that those kids are doing just fine. How exactly would you know the individual scores of all the black kids in your school anyway? Do you ask for scores and grades at school events and keep a notebook?

Too many people dismiss bad scores as just those pesky poor kids. Lots of UMC and MC kids are failing in MCPS too. From the data Piney Branch is particularly bad in this respect especially for black kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was too leery of ESS to send my own AA DC there. I wasn’t alone in our pre-school cohort. Now that the kids are at TPMS together, I’m seeing some great achievement out of DC’s peers who were at ESS. That said, nearly all are African or Caribbean immigrants, not African American. The parents are often well-educated in their home countries and have a great network of support that they call on to help the kids. One of DC’s best friends has Skype tutoring with an uncle in Paris!

I would like to see the county disagregate the data to distinguish between black students who are first or second gen AA and those who had grandparents that grew up under Jim Crow. I think there’s likely a disparity in outcomes there. If so, tailored responses should be put in place.

There are also a lot of kids hidden in the MU category (for two or more races) that have the same ancestry as other kids registered as AA. My own child has been categorized in both by MCPS at two different times. I think that impacts the data as well, taking out high flyers who might self-identify as AA, regardless of what their parents put on the form when they entered MCPS at 5 years old.

I mean, that's actually the bulk of Black kids at ESS. I have put two kids through that school, and most years the class was maybe 20-25% white, 25% Hispanic, 40-45% first or second generation Black American (mostly East African), and 10% multi-generational Black American.

It's just hard to talk about because we lack good language in the US for differentiating between Black Americans who are descended from slaves and Black Americans who are recent immigrants. These groups have some similarities and some differences, and too often discussions of those differences descend into tacit racism against the "wrong" kind of Black folks.

My own kids fell into the 40%, but adopted, which makes us particularly aware of the ways in which our kids experience privilege, but their privilege won't protect them in a traffic stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was too leery of ESS to send my own AA DC there. I wasn’t alone in our pre-school cohort. Now that the kids are at TPMS together, I’m seeing some great achievement out of DC’s peers who were at ESS. That said, nearly all are African or Caribbean immigrants, not African American. The parents are often well-educated in their home countries and have a great network of support that they call on to help the kids. One of DC’s best friends has Skype tutoring with an uncle in Paris!

I would like to see the county disagregate the data to distinguish between black students who are first or second gen AA and those who had grandparents that grew up under Jim Crow. I think there’s likely a disparity in outcomes there. If so, tailored responses should be put in place.

There are also a lot of kids hidden in the MU category (for two or more races) that have the same ancestry as other kids registered as AA. My own child has been categorized in both by MCPS at two different times. I think that impacts the data as well, taking out high flyers who might self-identify as AA, regardless of what their parents put on the form when they entered MCPS at 5 years old.

I mean, that's actually the bulk of Black kids at ESS. I have put two kids through that school, and most years the class was maybe 20-25% white, 25% Hispanic, 40-45% first or second generation Black American (mostly East African), and 10% multi-generational Black American.

It's just hard to talk about because we lack good language in the US for differentiating between Black Americans who are descended from slaves and Black Americans who are recent immigrants. These groups have some similarities and some differences, and too often discussions of those differences descend into tacit racism against the "wrong" kind of Black folks.

My own kids fell into the 40%, but adopted, which makes us particularly aware of the ways in which our kids experience privilege, but their privilege won't protect them in a traffic stop.

This is interesting. If first or second generation black kids are scoring so differently, it would be helpful to be able to see the distinction. There are categories for LEP and migrant students, but based on this conversation those aren't quite right for this group of students. It's concerning that the needs of black people who have lived in the U.S. for many generations can be hidden by recent immigrants who may not need the same types of attention. I guess the same could be said for the various Asian populations who don't fit the "model minority" stereotypes.

[Anonymous]

people ask why these large pockets of kids are doing so poorly and I am sure there are some deep and systematic reasons why. But I can't help help but see it as simply this school has a large pocket of kids who will never catch up and are divesting from education. Then that school will consolidate it's large pocket of kids with the other incredibly high FARMS schools in that cluster into a even higher concentration at middle school level which will only get worse at the high school level as those kids start to get into real trouble.

who cares why they are doing so bad, why not just pay a little bit more for one's house and find a school without huge pockets of bad students? Honest question

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:people ask why these large pockets of kids are doing so poorly and I am sure there are some deep and systematic reasons why. But I can't help help but see it as simply this school has a large pocket of kids who will never catch up and are divesting from education. Then that school will consolidate it's large pocket of kids with the other incredibly high FARMS schools in that cluster into a even higher concentration at middle school level which will only get worse at the high school level as those kids start to get into real trouble.

who cares why they are doing so bad, why not just pay a little bit more for one's house and find a school without huge pockets of bad students? Honest question

Personally I am looking for what may be a black unicorn, so to speak--a school with a diverse population in addition to good test scores. I don't want my kid to be an "only" who feels like an outsider in their school community. I also don't want to have to live miles and miles away from downtown DC where I work. I have to say, if I were white, maybe this wouldn't be an issue for me at all. I'm a little envious of people who can plop their kid into a "rich" school in a "good" neighborhood and not have to worry about them being different from the rest of the student population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:people ask why these large pockets of kids are doing so poorly and I am sure there are some deep and systematic reasons why. But I can't help help but see it as simply this school has a large pocket of kids who will never catch up and are divesting from education. Then that school will consolidate it's large pocket of kids with the other incredibly high FARMS schools in that cluster into a even higher concentration at middle school level which will only get worse at the high school level as those kids start to get into real trouble.

who cares why they are doing so bad, why not just pay a little bit more for one's house and find a school without huge pockets of bad students? Honest question

Personally I am looking for what may be a black unicorn, so to speak--a school with a diverse population in addition to good test scores. I don't want my kid to be an "only" who feels like an outsider in their school community. I also don't want to have to live miles and miles away from downtown DC where I work. I have to say, if I were white, maybe this wouldn't be an issue for me at all. I'm a little envious of people who can plop their kid into a "rich" school in a "good" neighborhood and not have to worry about them being different from the rest of the student population.

I'm in MD, but I think Shepherd Park is the unicorn in this respect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:people ask why these large pockets of kids are doing so poorly and I am sure there are some deep and systematic reasons why. But I can't help help but see it as simply this school has a large pocket of kids who will never catch up and are divesting from education. Then that school will consolidate it's large pocket of kids with the other incredibly high FARMS schools in that cluster into a even higher concentration at middle school level which will only get worse at the high school level as those kids start to get into real trouble.

who cares why they are doing so bad, why not just pay a little bit more for one's house and find a school without huge pockets of bad students? Honest question

Personally I am looking for what may be a black unicorn, so to speak--a school with a diverse population in addition to good test scores. I don't want my kid to be an "only" who feels like an outsider in their school community. I also don't want to have to live miles and miles away from downtown DC where I work. I have to say, if I were white, maybe this wouldn't be an issue for me at all. I'm a little envious of people who can plop their kid into a "rich" school in a "good" neighborhood and not have to worry about them being different from the rest of the student population.

I'm in MD, but I think Shepherd Park is the unicorn in this respect.

You may be right. Deal/Wilson kind of change the setting for middle and high school, but at least there's something in elementary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:people ask why these large pockets of kids are doing so poorly and I am sure there are some deep and systematic reasons why. But I can't help help but see it as simply this school has a large pocket of kids who will never catch up and are divesting from education. Then that school will consolidate it's large pocket of kids with the other incredibly high FARMS schools in that cluster into a even higher concentration at middle school level which will only get worse at the high school level as those kids start to get into real trouble.

who cares why they are doing so bad, why not just pay a little bit more for one's house and find a school without huge pockets of bad students? Honest question

Personally I am looking for what may be a black unicorn, so to speak--a school with a diverse population in addition to good test scores. I don't want my kid to be an "only" who feels like an outsider in their school community. I also don't want to have to live miles and miles away from downtown DC where I work. I have to say, if I were white, maybe this wouldn't be an issue for me at all. I'm a little envious of people who can plop their kid into a "rich" school in a "good" neighborhood and not have to worry about them being different from the rest of the student population.

So much of this comes down to administrators and the culture they create in a school. Do they affirmatively recruit and retain teachers of color? Do they affirmatively recruit and retain MALE teachers of color? Do they create a culture in which excellence is expected of all kids? Do they create a culture in which cultural differences are respected, and where parents coming from various cultures feel the school is open to them (linguistically, logistically, culturally)? Do they push back firmly on (middle class white) parents who advocate for policies that will disproportionately advantage their own kids?

This is hard stuff and I think a lot of administrators fail at it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:people ask why these large pockets of kids are doing so poorly and I am sure there are some deep and systematic reasons why. But I can't help help but see it as simply this school has a large pocket of kids who will never catch up and are divesting from education. Then that school will consolidate it's large pocket of kids with the other incredibly high FARMS schools in that cluster into a even higher concentration at middle school level which will only get worse at the high school level as those kids start to get into real trouble.

who cares why they are doing so bad, why not just pay a little bit more for one's house and find a school without huge pockets of bad students? Honest question

Personally I am looking for what may be a black unicorn, so to speak--a school with a diverse population in addition to good test scores. I don't want my kid to be an "only" who feels like an outsider in their school community. I also don't want to have to live miles and miles away from downtown DC where I work. I have to say, if I were white, maybe this wouldn't be an issue for me at all. I'm a little envious of people who can plop their kid into a "rich" school in a "good" neighborhood and not have to worry about them being different from the rest of the student population.

I'm in MD, but I think Shepherd Park is the unicorn in this respect.

That’s a low bar considering it is the weakest elementary school in the cluster with a high school most people who can, still avoid.