Warning: take the warnings about SSRI with teens seriously

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, peoples are really desperate defenders of SSRI's despite documented risk of suicide. Not all people with depression get suicidal symptoms. It takes a LOT to get the FDA to put this kind of warning on a medication.

I really wish people would look at the actual studies on SSRIs and see that they are only marginally effective for most people, and not effective at all for a lot of others. I thought Prozac was a miracle cecause it made me feel substantially better pretty quickly. Like an amazing honeymoon of non-depressed. But then it didn't feel as effective and doubling, quadrupling, and adding another led to the dose did nothing except cause me to gain 80 pounds in 2 years. But because the SSRI's blunted all my feelings, I didn't really even care. I barely remember my SSRI years. I wasn't depressed. I wasn't anything.

After finally getting of SSRI's, I did a lot more research on them and I'm so angry that something with such marginal effectiveness but with so many catastrophic side effects is so commonplace.

My depression is in complete remission now for the first time in 30 years (I'm in my mid 40's) thanks to monthly IV infusions of ketamine. I'm not on meds other than that, though I've recently adopted a ketogenic diet and that has improved my baseline mood as well. Ketamine is dramatically more effective for most people than SSRI's and the event is felt the next day, not weeks after starting. And aside from feeling dissociation during the infusion, there are no systemic side effects beyond the day of the infusion itself. It's has been used in much higher doses as an anesthetic for kids for decades, so it has a great safety profile. But most p-docs don't even know about it. Why? No big pharma involvement. No sales reps giving them trips for
Prescribing it. No big ad campaigns. And essentially no big profit to be had, since its generic.

Big pharma is catching up now and developing 3 for profit meds that are derivatives of ketamine. The FDA has given fast track approval for 1 because it is so promising. But the original is more effective and has less side effects.

Plenty of risks with ketamine - funny, you didn't mention any of them:
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(15)00392-2/fulltext

The article describes almost no side effects for non-recreational use of ketamine. One that it does, a slight dissociative state while receiving the infusion, is thought by many to be important to its effectiveness.

[Anonymous]

Ling story short.. my brother has really bad anxiety. Was put on paxil. Worked well and then he started to get manic, then the mania was off the charts. We ended up having to hospitalized him, as he had a full blown psychotic break. He got off the Paxil in the hospital, but it took him a long time to get back to normal. For him, his experience with SSRIs was life threatening and possibly devastating. He now manages anxiety with good sleep hygiene and exercise. The anxiety is there, but no way will he ever take An SSRI again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ling story short.. my brother has really bad anxiety. Was put on paxil. Worked well and then he started to get manic, then the mania was off the charts. We ended up having to hospitalized him, as he had a full blown psychotic break. He got off the Paxil in the hospital, but it took him a long time to get back to normal. For him, his experience with SSRIs was life threatening and possibly devastating. He now manages anxiety with good sleep hygiene and exercise. The anxiety is there, but no way will he ever take An SSRI again.

Thanks to one pp on DCUM, I found out about GABA supplement for anxiety. My DS takes it and it has worked better than any prescription medication. Maybe suggest it to your brother? It is also good for sleep and building muscles, so if he is into fitness it might be something he wouldn't mind trying?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ling story short.. my brother has really bad anxiety. Was put on paxil. Worked well and then he started to get manic, then the mania was off the charts. We ended up having to hospitalized him, as he had a full blown psychotic break. He got off the Paxil in the hospital, but it took him a long time to get back to normal. For him, his experience with SSRIs was life threatening and possibly devastating. He now manages anxiety with good sleep hygiene and exercise. The anxiety is there, but no way will he ever take An SSRI again.

Thanks to one pp on DCUM, I found out about GABA supplement for anxiety. My DS takes it and it has worked better than any prescription medication. Maybe suggest it to your brother? It is also good for sleep and building muscles, so if he is into fitness it might be something he wouldn't mind trying?

You mean the GABA for which there is insufficient research on its efficacy and side effects? And, in a number of studies that have been done, at least one of the authors in 3 out of 4 studies was affiliated with the company producing GABA and did not disclose that affliation?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594160/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ling story short.. my brother has really bad anxiety. Was put on paxil. Worked well and then he started to get manic, then the mania was off the charts. We ended up having to hospitalized him, as he had a full blown psychotic break. He got off the Paxil in the hospital, but it took him a long time to get back to normal. For him, his experience with SSRIs was life threatening and possibly devastating. He now manages anxiety with good sleep hygiene and exercise. The anxiety is there, but no way will he ever take An SSRI again.

Thanks to one pp on DCUM, I found out about GABA supplement for anxiety. My DS takes it and it has worked better than any prescription medication. Maybe suggest it to your brother? It is also good for sleep and building muscles, so if he is into fitness it might be something he wouldn't mind trying?

You mean the GABA for which there is insufficient research on its efficacy and side effects? And, in a number of studies that have been done, at least one of the authors in 3 out of 4 studies was affiliated with the company producing GABA and did not disclose that affliation?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594160/

I only know what DS and even I experienced. It makes falling asleep easier, and it calms him and me down. I asked pediatrician and even psychiatrist about it before and both said that as a supplement it doesn't hurt to try. I was more surprised than anyone that it actually worked. That is all I am saying, relating what helped.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ling story short.. my brother has really bad anxiety. Was put on paxil. Worked well and then he started to get manic, then the mania was off the charts. We ended up having to hospitalized him, as he had a full blown psychotic break. He got off the Paxil in the hospital, but it took him a long time to get back to normal. For him, his experience with SSRIs was life threatening and possibly devastating. He now manages anxiety with good sleep hygiene and exercise. The anxiety is there, but no way will he ever take An SSRI again.

Thanks to one pp on DCUM, I found out about GABA supplement for anxiety. My DS takes it and it has worked better than any prescription medication. Maybe suggest it to your brother? It is also good for sleep and building muscles, so if he is into fitness it might be something he wouldn't mind trying?

You mean the GABA for which there is insufficient research on its efficacy and side effects? And, in a number of studies that have been done, at least one of the authors in 3 out of 4 studies was affiliated with the company producing GABA and did not disclose that affliation?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594160/

+1
I would never take a supplement that hadn't been closely studied and monitored. Especially one that was being hawked by a company.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, peoples are really desperate defenders of SSRI's despite documented risk of suicide. Not all people with depression get suicidal symptoms. It takes a LOT to get the FDA to put this kind of warning on a medication.

I really wish people would look at the actual studies on SSRIs and see that they are only marginally effective for most people, and not effective at all for a lot of others. I thought Prozac was a miracle cecause it made me feel substantially better pretty quickly. Like an amazing honeymoon of non-depressed. But then it didn't feel as effective and doubling, quadrupling, and adding another led to the dose did nothing except cause me to gain 80 pounds in 2 years. But because the SSRI's blunted all my feelings, I didn't really even care. I barely remember my SSRI years. I wasn't depressed. I wasn't anything.

After finally getting of SSRI's, I did a lot more research on them and I'm so angry that something with such marginal effectiveness but with so many catastrophic side effects is so commonplace.

My depression is in complete remission now for the first time in 30 years (I'm in my mid 40's) thanks to monthly IV infusions of ketamine. I'm not on meds other than that, though I've recently adopted a ketogenic diet and that has improved my baseline mood as well. Ketamine is dramatically more effective for most people than SSRI's and the event is felt the next day, not weeks after starting. And aside from feeling dissociation during the infusion, there are no systemic side effects beyond the day of the infusion itself. It's has been used in much higher doses as an anesthetic for kids for decades, so it has a great safety profile. But most p-docs don't even know about it. Why? No big pharma involvement. No sales reps giving them trips for
Prescribing it. No big ad campaigns. And essentially no big profit to be had, since its generic.

Big pharma is catching up now and developing 3 for profit meds that are derivatives of ketamine. The FDA has given fast track approval for 1 because it is so promising. But the original is more effective and has less side effects.

Plenty of risks with ketamine - funny, you didn't mention any of them:
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(15)00392-2/fulltext

The article describes almost no side effects for non-recreational use of ketamine. One that it does, a slight dissociative state while receiving the infusion, is thought by many to be important to its effectiveness.

No thanks.
http://time.com/4687244/ketamine-club-drug-depression/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4014022/
https://americanaddictioncenters.org/ketamine-abuse/overdose-dangers/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Let me clarify a few things. First and foremost, I have been on an SSRI for 20 years. I am not against them. I am saying the warning is there for a reason.

My understanding is depression / anxiety is complex. In DD's case, I am betting that what we saw with the higher dose was a reduction of anxiety. She was much calmer. But, apparently, it did not help the depression. She was not fearful of the results, but she felt bad. And she hit a very short term deeper depression -- she wanted the pain to stop. So, she tried to stop it.

I thought the zoloft was working, because we were not seeing the anxiety outbursts. But it just took care of the anxiety, and not the depression.

She is down to a minor dose of zoloft, and will probably be off it within a week. Something will replace it. She is also on Ability (very low dose) to help those really short term deep depressions.

And she is in an IOP multiple days a week, to try do get her better coping strategies.

I could have lost my daughter because of a documented side effect. I wish I knew how it was manifesting in her before it got critical.

What "side effect" are you claiming lead to this?

Side effect may not be the right word. But SSRI increases the risk of suicide.

The FDA advises that doctors prescribe the smallest quantity of pills possible to help reduce the risk of deliberate or accidental overdose. Careful monitoring by parents, caregivers and health care professionals is important for any child or teenager taking an antidepressant for depression or any other condition.

The highest risk of suicidal thinking and behavior occurs:

During the first few months of treatment with an antidepressant
When the dosage is increased or decreased

From: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/teen-depression/in-depth/antidepressants/art-20047502?pg=2

SSRIs do not increase the risk of actual suicide. There is likely a small increase in the likelihood of talking and/or thinking about suicide in some children and adolescents, but not in attempts or completions.

It's actually an important difference.

[Anonymous]

Here is a good summary of what the research actually says:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3353604/#__ffn_sectitle

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, peoples are really desperate defenders of SSRI's despite documented risk of suicide. Not all people with depression get suicidal symptoms. It takes a LOT to get the FDA to put this kind of warning on a medication.

I really wish people would look at the actual studies on SSRIs and see that they are only marginally effective for most people, and not effective at all for a lot of others. I thought Prozac was a miracle cecause it made me feel substantially better pretty quickly. Like an amazing honeymoon of non-depressed. But then it didn't feel as effective and doubling, quadrupling, and adding another led to the dose did nothing except cause me to gain 80 pounds in 2 years. But because the SSRI's blunted all my feelings, I didn't really even care. I barely remember my SSRI years. I wasn't depressed. I wasn't anything.

After finally getting of SSRI's, I did a lot more research on them and I'm so angry that something with such marginal effectiveness but with so many catastrophic side effects is so commonplace.

My depression is in complete remission now for the first time in 30 years (I'm in my mid 40's) thanks to monthly IV infusions of ketamine. I'm not on meds other than that, though I've recently adopted a ketogenic diet and that has improved my baseline mood as well. Ketamine is dramatically more effective for most people than SSRI's and the event is felt the next day, not weeks after starting. And aside from feeling dissociation during the infusion, there are no systemic side effects beyond the day of the infusion itself. It's has been used in much higher doses as an anesthetic for kids for decades, so it has a great safety profile. But most p-docs don't even know about it. Why? No big pharma involvement. No sales reps giving them trips for
Prescribing it. No big ad campaigns. And essentially no big profit to be had, since its generic.

Big pharma is catching up now and developing 3 for profit meds that are derivatives of ketamine. The FDA has given fast track approval for 1 because it is so promising. But the original is more effective and has less side effects.

Plenty of risks with ketamine - funny, you didn't mention any of them:
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(15)00392-2/fulltext

The article describes almost no side effects for non-recreational use of ketamine. One that it does, a slight dissociative state while receiving the infusion, is thought by many to be important to its effectiveness.

No thanks.
http://time.com/4687244/ketamine-club-drug-depression/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4014022/
https://americanaddictioncenters.org/ketamine-abuse/overdose-dangers/

The original post on ketamine concerned administration at a clinic with medical personnel. It was not about randomly taking a a street drug in the hopes it would help depression. The bottom line of all these articles is, per the ncbi paper:

"In clinical practice, ketamine is considered safe, and in general, side effects are well tolerated."

Clinical practice covers use as an anesthetic using amounts ten times what is used for clinically given ketamine for depression. The levels given for anesthesia may cause a rise in liver tests per the article. This is not noted for the lower levels used to treat depression.

In the latter case there are three side effects noted: 1) a feeling of dissociation, which some think may be necessary for it to work for depression, 2) a possible increase in blood pressure, and 3) a possible increase in heart rate. Since ketamine for depression is given in a clinical setting where vitals are monitored, the last two issues can be monitored and the ketamine infusion can be discontinued if problematic levels are reached.

When one speaks of using ketamine as a party drug--yes, there are more possible side effects, some of them dangerous.

[Anonymous]

You realize, I am sure, that the issue of increased suicidal ideation in teenagers and children treated for depression with SSRIs didn't arise as a concern for many years into the use of those SSRIs.

Prozac/Fluoxetine was approved for medical use in 1986. The black box warning was first issued in 2007 -- that's over 20 years later.

Certainly, take concerns about Fluoxetine seriously. Also, take seriously that Ketamine is just at the beginning of its use for depression, and the fact we haven't identified many long term side effects yet does not mean that we won't. Researchers always issue cautions about this in the research on Ketamine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ling story short.. my brother has really bad anxiety. Was put on paxil. Worked well and then he started to get manic, then the mania was off the charts. We ended up having to hospitalized him, as he had a full blown psychotic break. He got off the Paxil in the hospital, but it took him a long time to get back to normal. For him, his experience with SSRIs was life threatening and possibly devastating. He now manages anxiety with good sleep hygiene and exercise. The anxiety is there, but no way will he ever take An SSRI again.

Thanks to one pp on DCUM, I found out about GABA supplement for anxiety. My DS takes it and it has worked better than any prescription medication. Maybe suggest it to your brother? It is also good for sleep and building muscles, so if he is into fitness it might be something he wouldn't mind trying?

You mean the GABA for which there is insufficient research on its efficacy and side effects? And, in a number of studies that have been done, at least one of the authors in 3 out of 4 studies was affiliated with the company producing GABA and did not disclose that affliation?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594160/

That may have been me who recommended GABA. GABA can work if you’re low in the amino acid it’s supplementing. If your problem is something else, like low serotonin, then it won’t help and you might be better off with an SSRI.

FWIW I own a parrot and GABA is used in parrots who feather pluck, which is a symptom of anxiety. Before the scientists here jump on me, let me say that I realize humans and parrots are different.

I only know what DS and even I experienced. It makes falling asleep easier, and it calms him and me down. I asked pediatrician and even psychiatrist about it before and both said that as a supplement it doesn't hurt to try. I was more surprised than anyone that it actually worked. That is all I am saying, relating what helped.

[Anonymous]

Reposting for formatting and a little editing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ling story short.. my brother has really bad anxiety. Was put on paxil. Worked well and then he started to get manic, then the mania was off the charts. We ended up having to hospitalized him, as he had a full blown psychotic break. He got off the Paxil in the hospital, but it took him a long time to get back to normal. For him, his experience with SSRIs was life threatening and possibly devastating. He now manages anxiety with good sleep hygiene and exercise. The anxiety is there, but no way will he ever take An SSRI again.

Thanks to one pp on DCUM, I found out about GABA supplement for anxiety. My DS takes it and it has worked better than any prescription medication. Maybe suggest it to your brother? It is also good for sleep and building muscles, so if he is into fitness it might be something he wouldn't mind trying?

You mean the GABA for which there is insufficient research on its efficacy and side effects? And, in a number of studies that have been done, at least one of the authors in 3 out of 4 studies was affiliated with the company producing GABA and did not disclose that affliation?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594160/

I only know what DS and even I experienced. It makes falling asleep easier, and it calms him and me down. I asked pediatrician and even psychiatrist about it before and both said that as a supplement it doesn't hurt to try. I was more surprised than anyone that it actually worked. That is all I am saying, relating what helped.

That may have been me who suggested GABA. GABA can work if you’re low in the amino acid it’s supplementing. If your problem is something else, like low serotonin, then it won’t help and you might be better off with an SSRI.

FWIW I own a parrot and GABA is used in parrots who feather pluck, which is a symptom of anxiety. Before the scientists here jump on me, let me say that I realize humans and parrots are different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ling story short.. my brother has really bad anxiety. Was put on paxil. Worked well and then he started to get manic, then the mania was off the charts. We ended up having to hospitalized him, as he had a full blown psychotic break. He got off the Paxil in the hospital, but it took him a long time to get back to normal. For him, his experience with SSRIs was life threatening and possibly devastating. He now manages anxiety with good sleep hygiene and exercise. The anxiety is there, but no way will he ever take An SSRI again.

Thanks to one pp on DCUM, I found out about GABA supplement for anxiety. My DS takes it and it has worked better than any prescription medication. Maybe suggest it to your brother? It is also good for sleep and building muscles, so if he is into fitness it might be something he wouldn't mind trying?

You mean the GABA for which there is insufficient research on its efficacy and side effects? And, in a number of studies that have been done, at least one of the authors in 3 out of 4 studies was affiliated with the company producing GABA and did not disclose that affliation?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594160/

+1
I would never take a supplement that hadn't been closely studied and monitored. Especially one that was being hawked by a company.

Then you probably shouldn’t take SSRIs either. The research is really ambiguous on some of the effects, and in fact one study out of Duke found that exercise is as, if not more, effective. And yet SSRIs and probably GABA provide needed relief to many....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reposting for formatting and a little editing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ling story short.. my brother has really bad anxiety. Was put on paxil. Worked well and then he started to get manic, then the mania was off the charts. We ended up having to hospitalized him, as he had a full blown psychotic break. He got off the Paxil in the hospital, but it took him a long time to get back to normal. For him, his experience with SSRIs was life threatening and possibly devastating. He now manages anxiety with good sleep hygiene and exercise. The anxiety is there, but no way will he ever take An SSRI again.

Thanks to one pp on DCUM, I found out about GABA supplement for anxiety. My DS takes it and it has worked better than any prescription medication. Maybe suggest it to your brother? It is also good for sleep and building muscles, so if he is into fitness it might be something he wouldn't mind trying?

You mean the GABA for which there is insufficient research on its efficacy and side effects? And, in a number of studies that have been done, at least one of the authors in 3 out of 4 studies was affiliated with the company producing GABA and did not disclose that affliation?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594160/

I only know what DS and even I experienced. It makes falling asleep easier, and it calms him and me down. I asked pediatrician and even psychiatrist about it before and both said that as a supplement it doesn't hurt to try. I was more surprised than anyone that it actually worked. That is all I am saying, relating what helped.

That may have been me who suggested GABA. GABA can work if you’re low in the amino acid it’s supplementing. If your problem is something else, like low serotonin, then it won’t help and you might be better off with an SSRI.

FWIW I own a parrot and GABA is used in parrots who feather pluck, which is a symptom of anxiety. Before the scientists here jump on me, let me say that I realize humans and parrots are different.

If it was you who recommended(it was in a Health forum, I think) thank you so much!