Historical records of Jesus?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is a groundhog?

A groundhog is a (I actually think "the" but , who knows, there may be more than one of her) poster who seizes on stray comments on Religion Forum threads to promote her pet theories about the origin and nature of Christianity.

Specifically, she believes that Jesus is a mythological figure whose followers made him up using a pastiche of other ancient gods, especially Horus and Mithras. Christmas topics are meat to Groundhog because she can then say how it was not the birthday of Christ but a bastardization of pagan winter solistice holidays, thus underscoring her point that Christianity is really a pagan cult.

Groundhog never provides cites for her sources but some dedicated posters have located the sketchy atheist websites from which she often cuts and pastes.

Her postings re-iterating the same themses show up over and over again in Religion threads, often disrupting and derailing them. Hence the name some have fondly given her--Groundhog as in the movie, "Groundhog Day."

Doesn't seem to apply to this thread, whose topic is specifically about historical records of Jesus. Also, several posts include citations.

Those defending the proposition Jesus existed have posted references to Josephus etc. I didn't see any citations posted by the Jesus deniers. Perhaps I missed them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What other ancient god w as also crucified?

Zoroastrianism

ATTIS : Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savior.

Mithraism : Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God." With twelve disciples he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men. He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing. His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.

Sound familiar? Hundreds of years before Jesus.

That doesn't mean that Jesus was not true. Some people think that the devil planted those ancient stories to confuse people later on about the real Messiah. Like the dinosaur bones that were placed by the devil to confuse people about evolution. But plenty of christians believe in Jesus AND evolution with no problem whatsoever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why should there be a written reference to Jesus during this lifetime? He was just a fairly insignificant Jewish peasant preacher while he was alive. Once his movement grew after his death, written references began to appear.

If a person is changing water into wine and resurrecting the dead, one would THINK those stories would be capture by literate folks.

No National Inquirer back in those days.

lots of gossip though, and stone carvings -- but none of Jesus until much later -- and quess what -- they looked amazingly like other ancient gods, complete with death on a cross, virgin birth and resurrection.

Can always count on you Groundhog!

Gossip abounded I am sure, but by nature it is evanescent and seldom leaves historical traces.

So . . . you're saying to one of the many groundhogs that you DON'T belief in scientific fact? that stone carvings mean nothing to you? (primary artifacts) that cultural crossover never existed? that more powerful groups did NOT steal from weaker groups?

I'm glad you think homeschooling worked for you, PP. must be a nice little fantasy world you live in

Sorry, Groundhog, my comment did not go to the part of your remark on carvings.

Yes ancient inscriptions are very informative when they exist. But many did not survive over time or have not been uncovered. And given Jesus's background and that of his followers the inscriptions likely would have been more in the form of graffiti, a type of carving that is perhaps least likely to survive. You cannot conclude with certainty that something did not happen simply because there are no inscriptions.

But I knew you were Groundhog because of this part of your response: "they looked amazingly like other ancient gods, complete with death on a cross, virgin birth and resurrection." You didn't specifically mention Horus or Mithras because we have outed you so many times on those, but we knew what you were thinking....

Are there people here who post as part of a group, or is this the "royal we" ?

No, there a couple of independent posters, who have engaged in Groundhog hunting here. At one point Groundhog complained to Jeff about sock puppeting and Jeff was able to identify three or four different posters who were responding to her unusual takes on the origin of Christianity, all strictly on the grounds of faulty history. Groundhog appears to think they are all homeschooled fundamentalist Christians, but not one of the Groundhog hunters has ever used the Bible to refute her theories.

How can you tell they are independent?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What other ancient god w as also crucified?

Zoroastrianism

ATTIS : Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savior.

Mithraism : Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God." With twelve disciples he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men. He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing. His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.

Sound familiar? Hundreds of years before Jesus.

That doesn't mean that Jesus was not true. Some people think that the devil planted those ancient stories to confuse people later on about the real Messiah. Like the dinosaur bones that were placed by the devil to confuse people about evolution. But plenty of christians believe in Jesus AND evolution with no problem whatsoever.

None of the stories the pp before you quotes actually bear any resemblance to the story of Jesus. Mithras was born from a rock. Attis was born from a woman who ate genitalia in the form of fruit and then cut off his own genitalia and died. I don't even know what pp is referring to regarding zoroasterianism. Ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What other ancient god w as also crucified?

Zoroastrianism

ATTIS : Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savior.

Mithraism : Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God." With twelve disciples he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men. He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing. His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.

Sound familiar? Hundreds of years before Jesus.

Sounds very much like this sketchy atheist website. In fact the passages have been directly cut and pasted from it:

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html

So surprising that someone who claims to fastidiously avoid Wikipedia finds this site so compelling in its accuracy.

Also, you forgot the crucifixions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why should there be a written reference to Jesus during this lifetime? He was just a fairly insignificant Jewish peasant preacher while he was alive. Once his movement grew after his death, written references began to appear.

If a person is changing water into wine and resurrecting the dead, one would THINK those stories would be capture by literate folks.

No National Inquirer back in those days.

lots of gossip though, and stone carvings -- but none of Jesus until much later -- and quess what -- they looked amazingly like other ancient gods, complete with death on a cross, virgin birth and resurrection.

Can always count on you Groundhog!

Gossip abounded I am sure, but by nature it is evanescent and seldom leaves historical traces.

So . . . you're saying to one of the many groundhogs that you DON'T belief in scientific fact? that stone carvings mean nothing to you? (primary artifacts) that cultural crossover never existed? that more powerful groups did NOT steal from weaker groups?

I'm glad you think homeschooling worked for you, PP. must be a nice little fantasy world you live in

Sorry, Groundhog, my comment did not go to the part of your remark on carvings.

Yes ancient inscriptions are very informative when they exist. But many did not survive over time or have not been uncovered. And given Jesus's background and that of his followers the inscriptions likely would have been more in the form of graffiti, a type of carving that is perhaps least likely to survive. You cannot conclude with certainty that something did not happen simply because there are no inscriptions.

But I knew you were Groundhog because of this part of your response: "they looked amazingly like other ancient gods, complete with death on a cross, virgin birth and resurrection." You didn't specifically mention Horus or Mithras because we have outed you so many times on those, but we knew what you were thinking....

Are there people here who post as part of a group, or is this the "royal we" ?

No, there a couple of independent posters, who have engaged in Groundhog hunting here. At one point Groundhog complained to Jeff about sock puppeting and Jeff was able to identify three or four different posters who were responding to her unusual takes on the origin of Christianity, all strictly on the grounds of faulty history. Groundhog appears to think they are all homeschooled fundamentalist Christians, but not one of the Groundhog hunters has ever used the Bible to refute her theories.

How can you tell they are independent?

I know they are independent because I am one of them and there are other posts not from me going after Groundhog. But more convincingly Groundhog asked Jeff to investigate and Jeff found there were multiple Groundhog hunters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What other ancient god w as also crucified?

Zoroastrianism

ATTIS : Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savior.

Mithraism : Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God." With twelve disciples he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men. He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing. His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.

Sound familiar? Hundreds of years before Jesus.

Sounds very much like this sketchy atheist website. In fact the passages have been directly cut and pasted from it:

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html

So surprising that someone who claims to fastidiously avoid Wikipedia finds this site so compelling in its accuracy.

Also, you forgot the crucifixions.

^^Ooops, read the Attis cut and paste too hastily. Now see the crucified on a tree bit Mr. Stone, the limitant atheist author of this description, wrote.

[Anonymous]

^^militant

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What other ancient god w as also crucified?

Groundhog likely got this "fact" from this book of dubious historicity written in 1875 or a later book inspired by it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World's_Sixteen_Crucified_Saviors

This groundhog doesn't rely on Wiki. Wiki is not a credible source.

This Wiki is simply a listing of a book and a bare bones description of what is says.

Could just have well have linked to this. Objective enough for you?

http://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Sixteen-Crucified-Saviours-Christianity/dp/093281395X

enough?

no - bc you pulled this out of your ass w/o reading it or examining whether or not it was peer-reviewed recently, as this is a recent reprint

not saying it's not credible - But it takes time to examine credible sources. A good groundhog knows the research.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What other ancient god w as also crucified?

Zoroastrianism

ATTIS : Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savior.

Mithraism : Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God." With twelve disciples he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men. He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing. His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.

Sound familiar? Hundreds of years before Jesus.

Sounds very much like this sketchy atheist website. In fact the passages have been directly cut and pasted from it:

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html

So surprising that someone who claims to fastidiously avoid Wikipedia finds this site so compelling in its accuracy.

Also, you forgot the crucifixions.

^^Ooops, read the Attis cut and paste too hastily. Now see the crucified on a tree bit Mr. Stone, the limitant atheist author of this description, wrote.

Quoting from an atheist's blog, for example, is no different from quoting from the bible. Those are two ends of the spectrum. True research comes from examining primary documents, and the research is peer-reviewed. But when you use the bible as an historical document, you don't "get" how to research.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What other ancient god w as also crucified?

Zoroastrianism

ATTIS : Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savior.

Mithraism : Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God." With twelve disciples he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men. He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing. His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.

Sound familiar? Hundreds of years before Jesus.

Sounds very much like this sketchy atheist website. In fact the passages have been directly cut and pasted from it:

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html

So surprising that someone who claims to fastidiously avoid Wikipedia finds this site so compelling in its accuracy.

Also, you forgot the crucifixions.

fascinating reading on Zoroastrianism
interesting connections to Christianity, which is a religion it predates

For a more detailed, reliable look, below is a link to a journal article that Wiki cited.

Boyd, James W.; et al. (1979), "Is Zoroastrianism Dualistic of Monotheistic?", Journal of the American Academy of Religion, Vol. XLVII, No. 4, pp. 557–588,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What other ancient god w as also crucified?

Zoroastrianism

ATTIS : Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savior.

Mithraism : Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God." With twelve disciples he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men. He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing. His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.

Sound familiar? Hundreds of years before Jesus.

That doesn't mean that Jesus was not true. Some people think that the devil planted those ancient stories to confuse people later on about the real Messiah. Like the dinosaur bones that were placed by the devil to confuse people about evolution. But plenty of christians believe in Jesus AND evolution with no problem whatsoever.

Why are you prattling on about the devil and his scheme in an effort to support that Jesus existed? Was the irony intentional on your part?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What other ancient god w as also crucified?

Zoroastrianism

ATTIS : Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savior.

Mithraism : Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God." With twelve disciples he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men. He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing. His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.

Sound familiar? Hundreds of years before Jesus.

That doesn't mean that Jesus was not true. Some people think that the devil planted those ancient stories to confuse people later on about the real Messiah. Like the dinosaur bones that were placed by the devil to confuse people about evolution. But plenty of christians believe in Jesus AND evolution with no problem whatsoever.

None of the stories the pp before you quotes actually bear any resemblance to the story of Jesus. Mithras was born from a rock. Attis was born from a woman who ate genitalia in the form of fruit and then cut off his own genitalia and died. I don't even know what pp is referring to regarding zoroasterianism. Ridiculous.

Did you even bother to read about Zoroasterianism? It's an ancient belief system that predates Christianity. The similarities are interesting.

Fear is causing you to blow off religions older than Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Groundhog, I clearly have underestimated you. That is in your ability to be unembarrassed. No sooner do I explain how your "evidence" is cut and pasted from dubious websites than you put up a post with a cut and paste from a sketchy atheist website. And then you have the chutzpah to blast others posters for their lack of use of scientific resources and not digging down into primary references.

Wow!

[Anonymous]

Groundhog, groundhog hunters - really? I didn't realize the Religion board was so nutso.

I can see why the "Groundhog" would say that Jesus is a mythical person, a legend passed down orally. I'm sure you can understand how non-Christians would see this.

And I can also see why (s)he would say that Christianity has adopted some pagan rituals. Is that even debated?