Are the City of Alexandria public schools really that bad?

[Anonymous]

I have a daughter who recently graduated from TC and another daughter in high school at Maret. I think I can answer anyone's questions about the quality of the TC education vis-a-vis a well-regarded private. If you ask me a specific question, I'll try to answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a daughter who recently graduated from TC and another daughter in high school at Maret. I think I can answer anyone's questions about the quality of the TC education vis-a-vis a well-regarded private. If you ask me a specific question, I'll try to answer.

Why did you send them to different schools? Were you happier with one school over the other? Any regrets?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, 10:39. I really appreciate the details. I'm certainly interested in hearing the negative from other people too, but if it's "I drove by Mount Vernon Community School and the kids I saw are not the same kids I saw playing there on the weekend" or something like that, then yes, I'll think you're a racist.

I read these boards all the time. So far, the specific negatives I've heard on here have been; problems with the administration; for ES, they don't tell you about transfers soon enough; good kids have been seated between the troublemakers; kids don't have iPads like Arlington; and there was something about "boob day" on a middle school tour (this one was awhile ago, but it really sticks in a person's brain).

I've also seen the comment that parents don't know how shitty the schools are until they leave. But what is it, specifically, that is happening once you leave? Kid is learning more quickly, kid is happier, school is more responsive?

I think there's so much attacking on here sometimes that the important facts are getting buried in the vitriol.

As a person with younger kids, I eagerly look forward to the TC + Maret parent responding. In the meantime, I'll try to answer some of these:

Problems with the administration. I think there is definitely a certain amount of dysfunction at the administration. I also think that as a small school system (compared to Fairfax, one of the country's largest) you can get to know very specific personalities, so one individual's faults might show up more distinctly then if you are dealing with a cast of thousands. Like any organization, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate staff that are frustrating or less-than-stellar. I've come to see ACPS's relatively small size as a positive. You have far more access to School Board members, and they are able to develop closer relationships with each school because they have fewer schools under their responsibility. If you do have a problem/issue, the small size means there are fewer levels of bureaucracy you have to wade through to get your grievance addressed. At this current time, there is only one person in the central office I truly despise, but as someone who has befriended a number of teachers and staff, I also know I'm not the only person that dislikes this person, and I think the prevailing attitude is to work around this person in order to get stuff done. This kind of thing might be less apparent to someone outside ACPS, but again, I don't think it's much different from what goes on in any organization, and I'm sure there are parallels in the neighboring jurisdictions.

Don't tell you about transfers soon enough. Arlington and Fairfax parents are DCUM have complained plenty about the overcrowding at their schools. The big increase in school population is happening all across the region. The transfer situation in ACPS is our version of it. Like the other jurisdictions, we have placed "learning cottages" at some of the schools to address the problem. Transfers become part of the mix in Alexandria because of the property lines of some of the schools involved. Tucker elementary on the West End was the first school to run out of space. It also happens to be built on a lot that can not have any additional structures placed on it. (If you are familiar with school, this might seems strange as there is a big park next to it, but that park is actually federal land, so ACPS has no jurisdiction over it. The only option for Tucker zone was the transfers. Now obviously, the ultimate solutions is that they are going to need to redistrict. If I have one complaint about the School Board, both current and former, it's that they are dragging their feet on the redistricting issue. However, reading these boards and listening to the woes of parents in Arlington and Fairfax, its seems we are not the only jurisdiction with this problem. The notification of the transfers most definitely was too late, and they have tried to improve that. I believe Tucker families knew by June of last year if they were going to be attending Tucker, or assigned elsewhere. The people that are really screwed under this current system are folks that are moving into the area in mid summer. Again, I'd love for this to be resolved in a more permanent way by redistricting, and hope that enough folks will put enough pressure on the School Board to make this happen.

Good kids have been seated between troublemakers. Based on the conversations on the boards, their are teachers doing this all over the country, so this is hardly an ACPS question. If you have a problem with your child's seating in the classroom, contact the teacher, and say that current seating arrangement is making it difficult for your child to concentrate. If teacher doesn't respond, move on up to the principal. Done. I made a request like this once, and it was honored without any difficulty whatsoever.

Kids don't have iPads like in Arlington. [Shrug] Plenty of privates don't have iPads either. They do have tons of technology. My kids used computers every day in 4th and 5th grade, and frequently in grades K-3. At the middle school, there is an almost 1:1 ratio of computers to students. Starting in 9th grade, every student is issued a laptop. Not really seeing a technology deficit in ACPS schools.

Boob day. One and only place I've ever heard about this is on DCUM. Not from the multiple parents I know with kids currently enrolled at GW. During every period change, teachers are in hallways, and throughout the day, there are hall monitors stationed throughout the school. I just don't think this is a real thing now, or if it ever was.

Parents don't know how bad it is until they leave. Many folks post here to say they've transferred into ACPS, and that they are happy. These voices tend to be drowned out. Hopefully we will hear more from the parent with one at TC and one at Maret. I have no doubt that there are some folks that for whatever reason do end up happier in another jurisdiction, but again, I don't think that opinion/experience should completely invalidate the views of ACPS families. For myself, I grew up in the military, attending schools in multiple jurisdictions across the country, and some overseas. I attending Fairfax county schools, and also Title I schools in a tiny town on the Texas/Mexico border. Some of the most amazing teachers and resources I had were in the "bad" school districts.

Let me know if you have more questions!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, 10:39. I really appreciate the details. I'm certainly interested in hearing the negative from other people too, but if it's "I drove by Mount Vernon Community School and the kids I saw are not the same kids I saw playing there on the weekend" or something like that, then yes, I'll think you're a racist.

I read these boards all the time. So far, the specific negatives I've heard on here have been; problems with the administration; for ES, they don't tell you about transfers soon enough; good kids have been seated between the troublemakers; kids don't have iPads like Arlington; and there was something about "boob day" on a middle school tour (this one was awhile ago, but it really sticks in a person's brain).

I've also seen the comment that parents don't know how shitty the schools are until they leave. But what is it, specifically, that is happening once you leave? Kid is learning more quickly, kid is happier, school is more responsive?

I think there's so much attacking on here sometimes that the important facts are getting buried in the vitriol.

As a person with younger kids, I eagerly look forward to the TC + Maret parent responding. In the meantime, I'll try to answer some of these:

Problems with the administration. I think there is definitely a certain amount of dysfunction at the administration. I also think that as a small school system (compared to Fairfax, one of the country's largest) you can get to know very specific personalities, so one individual's faults might show up more distinctly then if you are dealing with a cast of thousands. Like any organization, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate staff that are frustrating or less-than-stellar. I've come to see ACPS's relatively small size as a positive. You have far more access to School Board members, and they are able to develop closer relationships with each school because they have fewer schools under their responsibility. If you do have a problem/issue, the small size means there are fewer levels of bureaucracy you have to wade through to get your grievance addressed. At this current time, there is only one person in the central office I truly despise, but as someone who has befriended a number of teachers and staff, I also know I'm not the only person that dislikes this person, and I think the prevailing attitude is to work around this person in order to get stuff done. This kind of thing might be less apparent to someone outside ACPS, but again, I don't think it's much different from what goes on in any organization, and I'm sure there are parallels in the neighboring jurisdictions.

Don't tell you about transfers soon enough. Arlington and Fairfax parents are DCUM have complained plenty about the overcrowding at their schools. The big increase in school population is happening all across the region. The transfer situation in ACPS is our version of it. Like the other jurisdictions, we have placed "learning cottages" at some of the schools to address the problem. Transfers become part of the mix in Alexandria because of the property lines of some of the schools involved. Tucker elementary on the West End was the first school to run out of space. It also happens to be built on a lot that can not have any additional structures placed on it. (If you are familiar with school, this might seems strange as there is a big park next to it, but that park is actually federal land, so ACPS has no jurisdiction over it. The only option for Tucker zone was the transfers. Now obviously, the ultimate solutions is that they are going to need to redistrict. If I have one complaint about the School Board, both current and former, it's that they are dragging their feet on the redistricting issue. However, reading these boards and listening to the woes of parents in Arlington and Fairfax, its seems we are not the only jurisdiction with this problem. The notification of the transfers most definitely was too late, and they have tried to improve that. I believe Tucker families knew by June of last year if they were going to be attending Tucker, or assigned elsewhere. The people that are really screwed under this current system are folks that are moving into the area in mid summer. Again, I'd love for this to be resolved in a more permanent way by redistricting, and hope that enough folks will put enough pressure on the School Board to make this happen.

Good kids have been seated between troublemakers. Based on the conversations on the boards, their are teachers doing this all over the country, so this is hardly an ACPS question. If you have a problem with your child's seating in the classroom, contact the teacher, and say that current seating arrangement is making it difficult for your child to concentrate. If teacher doesn't respond, move on up to the principal. Done. I made a request like this once, and it was honored without any difficulty whatsoever.

Kids don't have iPads like in Arlington. [Shrug] Plenty of privates don't have iPads either. They do have tons of technology. My kids used computers every day in 4th and 5th grade, and frequently in grades K-3. At the middle school, there is an almost 1:1 ratio of computers to students. Starting in 9th grade, every student is issued a laptop. Not really seeing a technology deficit in ACPS schools.

Boob day. One and only place I've ever heard about this is on DCUM. Not from the multiple parents I know with kids currently enrolled at GW. During every period change, teachers are in hallways, and throughout the day, there are hall monitors stationed throughout the school. I just don't think this is a real thing now, or if it ever was.

Parents don't know how bad it is until they leave. Many folks post here to say they've transferred into ACPS, and that they are happy. These voices tend to be drowned out. Hopefully we will hear more from the parent with one at TC and one at Maret. I have no doubt that there are some folks that for whatever reason do end up happier in another jurisdiction, but again, I don't think that opinion/experience should completely invalidate the views of ACPS families. For myself, I grew up in the military, attending schools in multiple jurisdictions across the country, and some overseas. I attending Fairfax county schools, and also Title I schools in a tiny town on the Texas/Mexico border. Some of the most amazing teachers and resources I had were in the "bad" school districts.

Let me know if you have more questions!

More simply:

Problems with Administration - too many people who have done the same job the same way for too many years and can't adapt. Add in the fact the school system grew in that same time frame but didn't grow the people or talent to control it and all of a sudden they realize they are in a mess. They are only now trying to climb out. It's been about 5 years.

Don't tell you about transfers soon enough. - see "Problems with Administration". The guy who handles the actual transfer request is super nice and helpful but he can only do so much.

Parents don't know how bad it is until they leave. - (this is a whole explanation by itself)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Problems with Administration - too many people who have done the same job the same way for too many years and can't adapt. Add in the fact the school system grew in that same time frame but didn't grow the people or talent to control it and all of a sudden they realize they are in a mess. They are only now trying to climb out. It's been about 5 years.

Don't tell you about transfers soon enough. - see "Problems with Administration". The guy who handles the actual transfer request is super nice and helpful but he can only do so much.

Parents don't know how bad it is until they leave. - (this is a whole explanation by itself)

Regarding #3, no, I don't think that is a whole explanation by itself. It's not substantive and I can't evaluate it. My son was in a crappy daycare before we found childcare we loved. It would be very easy for me to state why we're happier with his current daycare. I would not simply say "We didn't know how bad it was until we left" to a concerned parent who was considering it without adding some explanation.

[Anonymous]

TC/Maret parent here. Our TC student got into GDS, which was her first choice for private school. However, we decided to send her to TC, for a number of reasons. First, she is very outgoing, eager to make friends, and we knew that she would thrive in a large school environment. Although she thoroughly enjoyed her small K-8 private school, she was ready to move into a "bigger pond." Second, she is a strong self-advocate. She enjoys dealing with adults, and has no problem approaching teachers to express her views. Third, she was able to get very involved in the Alexandria community, and served on several boards, etc. in Alexandria. She is interested in politics and probably would not have been able to do this as easily if she'd gone to a private school. She really felt like she became an integral part of the larger Alexandria community. Our second child, now at Maret, is more introspective. She wanted to go to a smaller school. She is not as quick to speak up in class, and therefore benefits from small class size.
With regard to teachers, we have found fabulous teachers at both schools. Our TC daughter was in primarily accelerated classes, and the subject matter taught is similar to that at Maret. I would say that there seems to be a lot more homework at Maret, and it is harder for our second daughter to get together with friends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We heard every horror story in the book about ACPS. We went straight to private; we didn't even bother looking at ACPS. After four years at two privates, we had it, and we decided to simply try ACPS. Our experiences to date (it's been five years) has been astounding, and essentially without material complaint, and we know literally dozens of parents in the same place as we are. In fact, I don't know a solid ten ACPS families who really can't stand the system. The first thing we learned about ACPS is that the academic program is more challenging than what most (not some -- most) of the private schools in this area offer. The second was that the impression that we had of urban chaos was simply false. The third is that the ACPS admins and central office are somehow low-performing. If anything, Alexandria's problem is its deeply underqualified, inexpert school board. The only caveat is that the ACPS elementaries are uneven. Most parents love Barrett, Mason, MacArthur, Maury, and Lyles-Crouch. Mount Vernon, Adams, Cora Kelly and Polk have very strong fan clubs. Jefferson Houston, Ramsey, and Henry are not well regarded. But internal transfers are available. We also learned that the vocal full-time critics of ACPS typically are disgruntled annoyances who have lost suits against the city or are affiliated with the city teachers union. You should make an appointment and tour the ACPS school where you would expect to enroll before you make any decisions. But the knee-jerk "ACPS rots" reaction isn't accurate. Good luck whatever you pick.

I see you've met our resident ACPS booster, OP. Her happy talk is really inconsistent with reality.

With the exception of the observation about the inept School Board, in general the Alexandria elementaries are better than they used to be. But middle schools is atrocious. And TC is just a bastion of problems, including a dropout rate of around 40% for Hispanics and a daycare center for the children of students, although it does offer a lot of classes, has some excellent faculty, and some upper middle class white kids do very well (and their parents cynically believe that this gives them a leg up on college admissions by virtue of "surviving" a poor school). SATs just came out and I think TC's was around 1,435 or something like that, nearly 300 points lower than the better Arlington and FFX high schools.

This is what I do know: The anxiety about ACPS is palpable in the parent community in Alexandria. It's a nearly nightly conversation for kids entering elementaries or families trying to decide about middle school. This type of anxiety simply doesn't exist in other school systems. They're not perfect, but no one frets about whether to send their children to their assigned school in the first place. That should tell you a lot.

The other thing is our pp booster notwithstanding, a lot of ACPS boosters have, in fact, never experienced anything else. So while they've rationalized their own situation, they don't know how much better things are elsewhere. More FLES in schools. More tech. Better teacher-administration relations. A college prep environment at the HS level rather than a "Yale or jail" atmosphere. More county-wide options (in ACPS there's only two mediocre middle schools and a single HS -- if it's a bad fit, you're kind of stuck).

So, I wouldn't dismiss it until you check it out. But as you talk to ACPS families, you also should reach out to those who've left ACPS and find out what they discovered they were missing.

"And TC is just a bastion of problems, including a dropout rate of around 40% for Hispanics and a daycare center for the children of students.."

I don't even begin to understand this quote. What is so atricous about keeping young girls in school? Are we still sitgmatizing preganant female students, while the fathers get to stay in school and roam free of responsiblity. What alternate universe is allowing this to go on? Holy Crap - go back to your 1950s version of morality and ship these women off and send these kids for adoption - seriously?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We heard every horror story in the book about ACPS. We went straight to private; we didn't even bother looking at ACPS. After four years at two privates, we had it, and we decided to simply try ACPS. Our experiences to date (it's been five years) has been astounding, and essentially without material complaint, and we know literally dozens of parents in the same place as we are. In fact, I don't know a solid ten ACPS families who really can't stand the system. The first thing we learned about ACPS is that the academic program is more challenging than what most (not some -- most) of the private schools in this area offer. The second was that the impression that we had of urban chaos was simply false. The third is that the ACPS admins and central office are somehow low-performing. If anything, Alexandria's problem is its deeply underqualified, inexpert school board. The only caveat is that the ACPS elementaries are uneven. Most parents love Barrett, Mason, MacArthur, Maury, and Lyles-Crouch. Mount Vernon, Adams, Cora Kelly and Polk have very strong fan clubs. Jefferson Houston, Ramsey, and Henry are not well regarded. But internal transfers are available. We also learned that the vocal full-time critics of ACPS typically are disgruntled annoyances who have lost suits against the city or are affiliated with the city teachers union. You should make an appointment and tour the ACPS school where you would expect to enroll before you make any decisions. But the knee-jerk "ACPS rots" reaction isn't accurate. Good luck whatever you pick.

I see you've met our resident ACPS booster, OP. Her happy talk is really inconsistent with reality.

With the exception of the observation about the inept School Board, in general the Alexandria elementaries are better than they used to be. But middle schools is atrocious. And TC is just a bastion of problems, including a dropout rate of around 40% for Hispanics and a daycare center for the children of students, although it does offer a lot of classes, has some excellent faculty, and some upper middle class white kids do very well (and their parents cynically believe that this gives them a leg up on college admissions by virtue of "surviving" a poor school). SATs just came out and I think TC's was around 1,435 or something like that, nearly 300 points lower than the better Arlington and FFX high schools.

This is what I do know: The anxiety about ACPS is palpable in the parent community in Alexandria. It's a nearly nightly conversation for kids entering elementaries or families trying to decide about middle school. This type of anxiety simply doesn't exist in other school systems. They're not perfect, but no one frets about whether to send their children to their assigned school in the first place. That should tell you a lot.

The other thing is our pp booster notwithstanding, a lot of ACPS boosters have, in fact, never experienced anything else. So while they've rationalized their own situation, they don't know how much better things are elsewhere. More FLES in schools. More tech. Better teacher-administration relations. A college prep environment at the HS level rather than a "Yale or jail" atmosphere. More county-wide options (in ACPS there's only two mediocre middle schools and a single HS -- if it's a bad fit, you're kind of stuck).

So, I wouldn't dismiss it until you check it out. But as you talk to ACPS families, you also should reach out to those who've left ACPS and find out what they discovered they were missing.

"And TC is just a bastion of problems, including a dropout rate of around 40% for Hispanics and a daycare center for the children of students.."

I don't even begin to understand this quote. What is so atricous about keeping young girls in school? Are we still sitgmatizing preganant female students, while the fathers get to stay in school and roam free of responsiblity. What alternate universe is allowing this to go on? Holy Crap - go back to your 1950s version of morality and ship these women off and send these kids for adoption - seriously?

Majority of the student pregnancies are among the Hispanic population and I believe that the fathers are often adults in the Hispanic community and not students. That being said, I support having a daycare in the school. The dropout rate for Hispanics is atrocious enough.

[Anonymous]

I think there are some good elementary schools in ACPS and some students (gifted) can really excel at the high school BUT I think the middle school is really the downfall.

And, there is only one middle and one high school. We bailed on Alexandria City for Fairfax County.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think there are some good elementary schools in ACPS and some students (gifted) can really excel at the high school BUT I think the middle school is really the downfall.

And, there is only one middle and one high school. We bailed on Alexandria City for Fairfax County.

Actually there are 2 middle schools and have been since 1993. GW and Hammond.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think there are some good elementary schools in ACPS and some students (gifted) can really excel at the high school BUT I think the middle school is really the downfall.

And, there is only one middle and one high school. We bailed on Alexandria City for Fairfax County.

There's only one middle school? Seriously? That's simply incorrect; two buildings with five school assignments and front-offices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there are some good elementary schools in ACPS and some students (gifted) can really excel at the high school BUT I think the middle school is really the downfall.

And, there is only one middle and one high school. We bailed on Alexandria City for Fairfax County.

There's only one middle school? Seriously? That's simply incorrect; two buildings with five school assignments and front-offices.

They are thinking of collapsing those structures though. It's under review now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there are some good elementary schools in ACPS and some students (gifted) can really excel at the high school BUT I think the middle school is really the downfall.

And, there is only one middle and one high school. We bailed on Alexandria City for Fairfax County.

There's only one middle school? Seriously? That's simply incorrect; two buildings with five school assignments and front-offices.

They are thinking of collapsing those structures though. It's under review now.

Even if you ignore the multiple schools under one building model, you have three middle schools - Hammond, GW, and Jefferson-Houston (this one is tiny). When the new Patrick Henry building is built in a few years, it will also have middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there are some good elementary schools in ACPS and some students (gifted) can really excel at the high school BUT I think the middle school is really the downfall.

And, there is only one middle and one high school. We bailed on Alexandria City for Fairfax County.

There's only one middle school? Seriously? That's simply incorrect; two buildings with five school assignments and front-offices.

They are thinking of collapsing those structures though. It's under review now.

Even if you ignore the multiple schools under one building model, you have three middle schools - Hammond, GW, and Jefferson-Houston (this one is tiny). When the new Patrick Henry building is built in a few years, it will also have middle school.

Realistically, DCUM types wouldn't be caught dead near Hammond (West End poors) or J-H (projects), so there might as well just be one middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there are some good elementary schools in ACPS and some students (gifted) can really excel at the high school BUT I think the middle school is really the downfall.

And, there is only one middle and one high school. We bailed on Alexandria City for Fairfax County.

There's only one middle school? Seriously? That's simply incorrect; two buildings with five school assignments and front-offices.

They are thinking of collapsing those structures though. It's under review now.

This is correct, although the "under review" status is largely the product of one single member of the School Board who carries little weight. Both the Hammond and GW PTAs have appeared before the School Board at a formal session and asked that the consolidation of the campus sub-schools be stopped and the existing structure be preserved.