India one of the least racially tolerant countries?

[CindyBindy]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Cindy: you're doing a good job here, and I'm in agreement with most of your comments/observations -- but that doesn't change the fact India is one of the least racially tolerant countries, which is what the thread is about.

This is what all my essays in this thread are about too. I haven't been talking about flowers this whole time, I've been talking about why India is not the least racially tolerant country in the world. So what about all this still has you persistently believing that India is the most racist place ever?

Cindy, I was born in India but have lived in the US for most of my life. Have visited India often for varying periods.

I would have to say that India (and for that matter Indians who spent their formative years in India) are not only conscious of race but of color and religion. It is endemic to every aspect of life there. The color of the skin is especially important which is why skin lightening products are huge sellers in India. A fair skinned person - especially a woman - is considered much more attractive than someone who is darker skinned which is why the matrimonial ads in India emphasize skin color. A woman who is light skinned but does not have particularly attractive features is more desirable than a darker skinned woman who may have better features.

Even in the US, immigrant parents are much more receptive to their children marrying a white American than an African American. Then there is an almost universal hostility among both Hindus and Indian Christians to marriage with a Muslim. Hindus and Christians prefer that their children marry within the same religion and the same community but are mildly tolerant when they choose to inter-marry but marrying a Muslim is considered taboo and the parents would generally not tolerate it.

There is open negative stereotyping of other races among many Indians who live in the US.

I think to suggest that race, color and religion are not major prejudices among Indians especially in India is just misleading. What is encouraging is that Indian children born and brought up in the US have managed to shed many of these prejudices their parents have brought with them.

I could cite many positives when it comes to Indians whether in India or the US but racial and religious tolerance is not among them.

+1 (from another Indian-American)

Whether India is "one of the least racially tolerant countries' or not is neither here nor there because I don't know an objective yardstick to measure this.

Did you even bother reading my rebuttal to his post, or was that too much to read? And FYI, the question of whether India is the least racially tolerant is central to this thread, not "neither here nor there". It is the topic of this thread. It is the reason that poster cited for writing that entire post to me in the first place - because he was arguing that Indians are institutionally racist to a greater extent than anyone else.

But I wholly agree that bigotry in various forms is rife in India and among Indian immigrants who live here. Yes, there is the same prejudice among other racial groups and within other countries but it is delusional to somehow rationalize the attitudes of Indians or pretend that it does not exist or split hairs as to nuances when what one is dealing with is outright bigotry.

This is how I know you didn't bother reading my rebuttal. Not only did I acknowledge Indian prejudices, I also put them into context and explained them. If you don't understand that, then you have problems that I cannot solve for you.

By the way, "splitting hairs as to nuances" is actually more accurately called, "being informed about the subject you're talking about". You don't understand that prejudice in India is not as widespread as you want to believe? Fine. You believe that there is no point in learning about the cultural and historical reasons behind people's behavior even though that context will explain how not-bigoted they are? Fine. But if you just want to persist in your misinformed, racist stereotypes about your own country, don't pretend that you're also educated about that country or its society.

[Anonymous]

Just watched the Best Exotic marigold Hotel. Just wonderful. Recommended I wonder if Jaipur is really like that?
I thought Mississippi Masala was pretty funny too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not PP but Brazil and India are not even comparable. The fact that person or others jokes about a type of hair is no more akin to racism than a red head joking about their hair color or a white person saying they are pale. The fact of the matter is Brazilians are infinitely more accepting of phenotypic and cultural differences than most countries on the planet including the US.

If a white person made a joke about nappy hair in America, do you think African Americans would just laugh it off? There has always been so much racial identity politics surrounding phenotypic differences that during the civil rights era, the Afro was an expression of celebrating pride in "nappy hair". I can guarantee you if someone who was not black made a joke about nappy hair in America today, the black community would blow up at him.

The point I was trying to make about the hair comment in Brazil - and I think I explained this above - was that in developing countries the sense of political correctness is different. Maybe people are misunderstanding that because I immediately talked about the Chinese cab driver next, and that was racism. In much of the developing world, people don't really have any sense of political correctness, or at least not the way Americans do. In India for example, you can't say the phrase "lower caste" or "untouchable" - the term is "scheduled caste" or "scheduled tribe". But I have also heard an Indian lady say to her tanned, sporty, outdoorsy child, "You look like a n*gro". Is she racist or just unaware that you can't say that? (and let's not discuss her color prejudice - that is different from racial prejudice) Well, I've seen how she treats Africans so I don't think she's racist, anymore than a white Brazilian who makes fun of "nappy hair". That was my point. Apologies if I didn't make this clear the first time.

PP you responded to... It has no bearing whether AA's get sensitive when someone talks about their hair. It only proves that they are sensitive and insecure. The point when they are not sensitive and comments about differences are not a big deal will be a huge step forward in the US. Brazil and several other countries are beyond that. The US is not the standard here... And this has little to do with developing vs developed country. This has to do with in Brazil whites and blacks are more intertwined, have a shared culture and history. In the US they are completely separate so they feel they need to walk on egg shells around eachother.

NP here and I am HIGHLY offended by your comment. How dare you insinuate that black people are sensitive and insecure about issues that stem from hundreds of years of oppression, racism and discrimination? Please get your head out of your ass.

PP you responded to here..

Just to start Brazilian slavery goes back further than US slavery.

Yet, I agree with you that there is a reason for the sensitivity and insecurity. Pointing out this fact is reality and I don't mean it to be offensive. When these comments cease to reflect/produce pain it will be an indication of progress in my eyes.

My issue is with your choice of words: sensitivity and insecurity. It stinks of the "chip on your shoulder" tag that folks like to hand out to black people whenever we say/do something that is disagreeable. Instead of worrying about the person who feels pain at an insult, how about focusing on changing the behaviors and mindsets of folks who make the comments?

Hilarious, what choice of words should I use... Are you claiming that AA culture is not insecure. It is! Stop caring what another person thinks about you, your hair or otherwise... This is one of the major ills that AA cannot get over.

Another PP here. Thanks for telling me what the ills of MY race are and how I should deal with them. LOL I will stop caring what another person thinks of me when I am 100% sure that what they think of me will not adversely impact me. But IMO, THAT is the reason that AA get so "sensitive" as you put it and that nothing gets resolved. Instead of understanding why people think what you said was offensive, you would rather defend your position and then get "sensitive" yourself when called on it.

So you are now admitting you are sensitive but the problem is that I brought it up and you assume that I'm not one of your kind... backwards thinking...

[CindyBindy]

Anonymous wrote:Just watched the Best Exotic marigold Hotel. Just wonderful. Recommended I wonder if Jaipur is really like that?
I thought Mississippi Masala was pretty funny too.

Best Exotic Marigold is an awesome movie! I just loved it - one of the best feel-good movies that year. And yes, Jaipur does look like that, except for the hotel itself - that was a little odd. Usually there are insanely luxurious palace-hotels and horrible budget motels, and some respectable mid-range hotels. The hotel from the movie is just sooo weird.

I haven't watched Mississippi Masala but really want to. Denzel Washington in passionate embrace with a girl who I can pretend is me because she's Indian? That sounds perfect.

[Anonymous]

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ummm. Actually I lived in Brazil as part of the priveleged class (which is FYI - based on money not color) and live here in the US as an African American. The mere fact you dismiss the intrinsic connection of colonialism and race in these countries causes me to question your "real world first hand experience". But keep telling the crew on here that will listen to you. Who knows they might believeyou but be clear only the most liberal ones will be "kinda ok" with their daughters dating one of your sons. I'm just sayin'

I'm starting to wonder if English is your first language, because you clearly are having some kind reading comprehension problem here.

Color does matter in Brazil. It's not going to get you lynched or destroy your employment prospects, and I've never experienced racism and am not implying that everyone is a hooded tree-lynching KKK member there. But the politics of color, hair type and other such indicators exist in social relations even when people don't realize it's technically "racist". That. Was. My. Whole. Point. About. Political. Correctness.

I never "dismissed" colonialism. There is a difference between "not talking about colonialism because it's not part of an argument in which you are pointing out that racism is not exclusive to India and not worse in India than it is anywhere else in the developing world", and "not talking about colonialism because its effect on racism in developing countries is non-existent." Get your story straight.

By the way? I've interned in Brazil and two of my best friends are extremely wealthy Brazilians. One of them is going to be my host for the World Cup and they absolutely move in "privileged" circles, so I'm not sure you're out-snobbing anyone here. I also never introduced a debate about whether money is more important than color - unless you count that part in my original post where I said that poorer Indians like white people because they think they're rich? Oh shit wait, did I just imply that social status in India is based on money, not color? Oops!

CindyBindy, I know you have good intentions when reviving these racially charged threads, but honestly if the thread is dead please just let it be. I guarantee you within a couple of weeks there will be another new Indian bashing thread, they're pretty regular on this forum and your posts would be great at that time.

~ Fellow Indian American female

I know, I know. But I have a troll-magnet problem.

Cindy I lived in Brazil. I don't have to rely on reading your perverted interpretation of your "experiences".
Like I said keep talking you will show us all how great Indial and Indians are but most of us still will not be happy if our daughter brings your racist/ sexist son home... Yes now I'm moving on to ALL the attacks on women in your country.

Don't bother answering you've demonstrated you are a know it all about all cultures. Which btw is another stereotype you should probably address at another time.

[Anonymous]

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Hilarious, what choice of words should I use... Are you claiming that AA culture is not insecure. It is! Stop caring what another person thinks about you, your hair or otherwise... This is one of the major ills that AA cannot get over.

I began writing out a furious response to this racist, ignorant, profoundly moronic post.

Then I realized that you just don't get it and likely never will, because your level of intelligence is as weak as your stubborn desire to enforce institutionalized racist ideas is strong, because that's the society you grew up in and it gives you comfort to reinforce those notions, while dismissing anyone who confronts your prejudice with rational, intelligent words.

Good luck to you.

This is not racist.. This is a cultural issue. How exactly is wishing AA stop caring what white society thinks about them racist? Furthermore what society did I grow up in? The US is bizarro land right now because anytime race come up everyone is supposed to clam and bow down to being PC. This is very hurtful to AA's and reinforces races as whites get to feel sorry for hem and feel superior.

You seem to believe that African Americans are behaving like that pimply dorky kid in school who so desperately wanted to be accepted by the popular kids and cared what they thought about him. This attitude is an example of why another poster complained that (mistakenly, in his context) "we can't talk about race" - because attitudes like the one you are displaying show such ignorance.

You are trivializing racial ignorance because you don't understand why it is wrong. You made an idiotic blanket statement of an entire ethnic community and ought to expect people to call you out on it. Standing up when someone brings up a racial issue that has for centuries been part of the oppression and destruction of cultural pride of a certain group, has nothing to do with being "insecure" and "insensitive". It has everything to do with self-respect and empowerment. If you are white, male, Protestant, and heterosexual in America, it might be more difficult for you to understand that. But plenty of white, male Protestant heterosexuals have managed to understand that "being PC" is not about treading on eggshells around people's fragile egos, but about understanding that stereotypes are both stupid and inaccurate. If they can do it, I'm sure you can manage it too.

I don't think the pimply nerd is a good analogy... Its more like a insecure bully who you have to watch what you say or you'll get effed up.

I can't be ignorant because I'm fully aware of AA culture, grew up surrounded by it. Know it in and out. Now again, its not exactly the fault of the AA community that as a culture there's insecurity. I'm not attacking here, I'm saying if it never goes away, progress will not be made. And I think racist want AA to be secure and encourage it.

Now, I never claimed that people should throw around stereotypes, I claimed that a society where one group can never be offended will never be an equal society. One group will always be the offended and the other will have the power to always be able to manipulate and push their buttons.

[CindyBindy]

Anonymous wrote:


Cindy I lived in Brazil. I don't have to rely on reading your perverted interpretation of your "experiences".

You're right. You don't have to. Instead, you can continue to misinterpret what I'm saying because you have a chip on your shoulder and would rather believe that I'm saying that Brazil is some kind socially diseased society instead of what I'm really talking about, which is American misinterpretation of societies that don't conform to American standards of political correctness. But no! Feel free to believe I'm pervertedly interpreting Brazil.

Like I said keep talking you will show us all how great Indial and Indians are but most of us still will not be happy if our daughter brings your racist/ sexist son home... Yes now I'm moving on to ALL the attacks on women in your country.

It's like I'm talking to a wall. I'm literally talking to a wall. I did not know people this stubbornly, moronically racist existed on the Internet outside of sites like Stormfront and the odd deranged Youtube troll.

Don't bother answering you've demonstrated you are a know it all about all cultures. Which btw is another stereotype you should probably address at another time.

In other words, you're saying: "Don't bother taking my racist garbage seriously and taking the trouble to thoughtfully rebut all my hole-filled racist notions, because I've read your previous posts and don't want to actually defend my accusations. I'd rather just spew out bullshit and not be called on it. I hate the fact that you're not allowing me to do that, so I'm warning you in advance not to argue about my racism."

Fine pussy, I won't. Enjoy comforting yourself with your delusions.

[Anonymous]

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just watched the Best Exotic marigold Hotel. Just wonderful. Recommended I wonder if Jaipur is really like that?
I thought Mississippi Masala was pretty funny too.

Best Exotic Marigold is an awesome movie! I just loved it - one of the best feel-good movies that year. And yes, Jaipur does look like that, except for the hotel itself - that was a little odd. Usually there are insanely luxurious palace-hotels and horrible budget motels, and some respectable mid-range hotels. The hotel from the movie is just sooo weird.

I haven't watched Mississippi Masala but really want to. Denzel Washington in passionate embrace with a girl who I can pretend is me because she's Indian? That sounds perfect.

Oh... your so embracing of other cultures.. how sweet. Thank you for liking a black man

[Anonymous]

"Cindy I lived in Brazil. I don't have to rely on reading your perverted interpretation of your "experiences".
Like I said keep talking you will show us all how great Indian and Indians are but most of us still will not be happy if our daughter brings your racist/ sexist son home... Yes now I'm moving on to ALL the attacks on women in your country.

Don't bother answering you've demonstrated you are a know it all about all cultures. Which btw is another stereotype you should probably address at another time. "

Tee hee.

[CindyBindy]

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think the pimply nerd is a good analogy... Its more like a insecure bully who you have to watch what you say or you'll get effed up.

I can't be ignorant because I'm fully aware of AA culture, grew up surrounded by it. Know it in and out. Now again, its not exactly the fault of the AA community that as a culture there's insecurity. I'm not attacking here, I'm saying if it never goes away, progress will not be made. And I think racist want AA to be secure and encourage it.

Now, I never claimed that people should throw around stereotypes, I claimed that a society where one group can never be offended will never be an equal society. One group will always be the offended and the other will have the power to always be able to manipulate and push their buttons.

Okay, thanks for explaining. I think the first thing we need to do is understand that African-American culture is extremely diverse in and of itself. You may have grown up in a predominantly African-American neighborhood so you've drawn some experiences from that. Fine. But let's also realize that maybe your neighborhood only represented a slice of the wider black culture in America. The African-Americans of Sag Harbor, for example, are a world apart from the African-Americans of inner city Chicago, and even within those groups there are distinctions.

If you are talking about a segment of the African-American community which is historically poor and disadvantaged, like say inner city neighborhoods and the like, then they also have complex and horribly fascinating reasons for as to why generations of so-called "hang-ups" and, in your words, "insecurities" have built up. For example - and this is just one example, not to drag this out - I was reading about a book which examines why poor, urban African-Americans thinking that studying hard and trying to excel academically is "selling out" and "acting white". Apparently this insecurity stems directly from the era of desegregation. It's horribly fascinating because this was an unintentional negative side effect of a good outcome of the civil rights movement.

Apparently when black children were integrated into white schools for the first time, they left a protective and nurturing environment in which black schools and black teachers were banded together and encouraging them to excel. In that environment, they had positive role models who gave them to confidence to try and study hard. In white schools, many of them faced subtle indications that they weren't going to be held to the same exacting standards as white kids, or that their teachers just didn't expect much from them - whether that was because the teachers were well-meaning white liberals or because they were racist is unknown and it was probably a mix of both. But it led to a lack of academic confidence among kids who were already poor or lower-middle-class, and their children have inherited that today.

I'm not trying to cast African-Americans as perpetual victims, and I also don't believe all African-Americans see themselves as victims either. But for those that do, we should understand that it is hard to break out of that attitude when you come from a place where your cultural confidence in yourself and your identity has always been low due to poverty, lack of education, and seeing negative stereotypes about your community constantly being reinforced.

[CindyBindy]

Anonymous wrote:

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just watched the Best Exotic marigold Hotel. Just wonderful. Recommended I wonder if Jaipur is really like that?
I thought Mississippi Masala was pretty funny too.

Best Exotic Marigold is an awesome movie! I just loved it - one of the best feel-good movies that year. And yes, Jaipur does look like that, except for the hotel itself - that was a little odd. Usually there are insanely luxurious palace-hotels and horrible budget motels, and some respectable mid-range hotels. The hotel from the movie is just sooo weird.

I haven't watched Mississippi Masala but really want to. Denzel Washington in passionate embrace with a girl who I can pretend is me because she's Indian? That sounds perfect.

Oh... your so embracing of other cultures.. how sweet. Thank you for liking a black man

Hello there. Would you like to explain your passive-aggressive bullshit?

[Anonymous]

Cindy, your attempts to come across as a model of erudition are only exceeded by your appalling ignorance of Indian and other cultures. But you do take the cake for sheer pretentiousness.

[CindyBindy]

Anonymous wrote:Cindy, your attempts to come across as a model of erudition are only exceeded by your appalling ignorance of Indian and other cultures.

Explain, specifically, where I am ignorant and exactly why. Be specific. If you can't be specific, I'm not going to bother listening to what you have to say. If I gave these idiotic racist rants the respect of responding seriously to them, you can try and do the same for me. And if by other cultures you mean that Brazil nonsense again, I'm going to assume you're yet another person who has persisted in not understanding my point.

But you do take the cake for sheer pretentiousness.

If you think that my style of speaking is pretentiously erudite, I don't know what to say. This is how I have always spoken since I was a kid, and how every single other person I know speaks. If you think being thoughtful and educated about a subject you're arguing about is "pretentious", then I really don't know what to say.

[Anonymous]

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't think the pimply nerd is a good analogy... Its more like a insecure bully who you have to watch what you say or you'll get effed up.

I can't be ignorant because I'm fully aware of AA culture, grew up surrounded by it. Know it in and out. Now again, its not exactly the fault of the AA community that as a culture there's insecurity. I'm not attacking here, I'm saying if it never goes away, progress will not be made. And I think racist want AA to be secure and encourage it.

Now, I never claimed that people should throw around stereotypes, I claimed that a society where one group can never be offended will never be an equal society. One group will always be the offended and the other will have the power to always be able to manipulate and push their buttons.

Okay, thanks for explaining. I think the first thing we need to do is understand that African-American culture is extremely diverse in and of itself. You may have grown up in a predominantly African-American neighborhood so you've drawn some experiences from that. Fine. But let's also realize that maybe your neighborhood only represented a slice of the wider black culture in America. The African-Americans of Sag Harbor, for example, are a world apart from the African-Americans of inner city Chicago, and even within those groups there are distinctions.

If you are talking about a segment of the African-American community which is historically poor and disadvantaged, like say inner city neighborhoods and the like, then they also have complex and horribly fascinating reasons for as to why generations of so-called "hang-ups" and, in your words, "insecurities" have built up. For example - and this is just one example, not to drag this out - I was reading about a book which examines why poor, urban African-Americans thinking that studying hard and trying to excel academically is "selling out" and "acting white". Apparently this insecurity stems directly from the era of desegregation. It's horribly fascinating because this was an unintentional negative side effect of a good outcome of the civil rights movement.

Apparently when black children were integrated into white schools for the first time, they left a protective and nurturing environment in which black schools and black teachers were banded together and encouraging them to excel. In that environment, they had positive role models who gave them to confidence to try and study hard. In white schools, many of them faced subtle indications that they weren't going to be held to the same exacting standards as white kids, or that their teachers just didn't expect much from them - whether that was because the teachers were well-meaning white liberals or because they were racist is unknown and it was probably a mix of both. But it led to a lack of academic confidence among kids who were already poor or lower-middle-class, and their children have inherited that today.

I'm not trying to cast African-Americans as perpetual victims, and I also don't believe all African-Americans see themselves as victims either. But for those that do, we should understand that it is hard to break out of that attitude when you come from a place where your cultural confidence in yourself and your identity has always been low due to poverty, lack of education, and seeing negative stereotypes about your community constantly being reinforced.

Cindy you are not African American . Stop talking about our culture. Focus on your own damn racist rapey culture. Fix YOUR house first.

[Anonymous]

CindyBindy wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cindy, your attempts to come across as a model of erudition are only exceeded by your appalling ignorance of Indian and other cultures.

Explain, specifically, where I am ignorant and exactly why. Be specific. If you can't be specific, I'm not going to bother listening to what you have to say. If I gave these idiotic racist rants the respect of responding seriously to them, you can try and do the same for me. And if by other cultures you mean that Brazil nonsense again, I'm going to assume you're yet another person who has persisted in not understanding my point.

But you do take the cake for sheer pretentiousness.

If you think that my style of speaking is pretentiously erudite, I don't know what to say. This is how I have always spoken since I was a kid, and how every single other person I know speaks. If you think being thoughtful and educated about a subject you're arguing about is "pretentious", then I really don't know what to say.

Jesus get a life lady.