Are this year's CogAT scores age-adjusted or not?

[Anonymous]

I have been thinking of the birthday issue with regard to AAP. A little background.

DS#1: March Birthday, so, middle of the pack for age. ADHD. Currently in 5th grade AAP. He was my earliest reader, and seemed to have a mind for nonverbal/engineering type things early too. Did not make AAP 1st round, though his CogAt Score was 139 composite, and some sections had perfect scores. His teacher said that his maturity may have kept his GBRS at 9. (though I did not see maturity as a category). We waited one year, as we could not afford WISC. His 3rd grade teacher asked very early on why he was not in AAP, and so we referred in 3rd, and he breezed in first round (no new test scores). Started AAP in 4th. It is absolutely the right place for him academically.

DS#2: December Birthday, so started K at almost 6 last year. Also has Aspergers and ADHD. Was not an early reader, but now is in 1st grade, progressed very quickly and gets AAP weekly pull outs through the Young Scholars program at his school. No test scores yet. Suspect he may perform well on tests, at least enough for pool. Not sure I would pull him to send to center though, as his Title 1 school offers amazingly small class sizes, which with his needs, are very important.

DD: September Birthday, started K this year. She is the youngest in her class. Since our school is Title 1, there is not much redshirting, but certainly, she will encounter the age difference if she ends up at a center someday. That said, she was not identified in K for Young Scholars as her brother was. But, the thing is, he had almost a full extra year before starting K due to his December Birthday. I agree, she is not where he was last year at this time, and does not need the pull outs at this time. I do think, had she had another year, she might. That said, we felt she was ready for K. I wonder if our decision to send her on time will prevent her from needing AAP.

We shall see I guess, but I have seen a big difference between my own children, which may or may not be attributed to the age at which they started K.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, are you out of your mind? In what IQ based test do younger kids score equally to older ones? Those raising issues with the test here have every right to, it was bungled by those supposedly making it more fair and equitable to the process. Also, I am sick and tired of hearing those lecturing that it doesn't matter, just refer in, its a package deal, a percent here or there doesn't matter, etc. For many borderline kids, and there will be many, it does matter. Those who do not reach pool level scores will most likely have to take the WISC and appeal. This is an added burden and to many a cost that may not be affordable. Also, less informed parents may not even know the best way to mount an appeal.

On the other side, there are an equal number of red shirted kids who are benefiting at the cost of those who were not age adjusted up, and into the pool. An equal number of them would have to drop out for those younger ones who deserve to be in.

You are assuming that the kids who started school a year late are more advanced than everyone else.

Most of the people I know who choose to do this, do so because their kids are a bit behind, either socially or academically, or both.

Just because they are older does not necessarily mean that they scored better.

Then why is the NNAT and national CogAT tests age normalized within the grade level tests? Why is the WISC age adjusted? Why are IQ tests age adjusted?

+1000. FCPS bungled the FFX CogAT. They ought to age norm it. I would say pure incompetence and may try to cover up by *sacrificing* younger kids. Please call the AART and ask them to pass on the age norming issue to the Central Screening committee.

Does anybody really know if the test was age normed or not? Perhaps it can't be since there's no national sample to compare against.

The test can definitely be age-normed, even with only this year's data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ITA with pp. If a child needs the AAP class, it will be obvious to the teachers and the test scores will not be on the cusp regardless of age.

Then, why bother with tests? Let the teachers decide who needs AAP and who doesn't... Why put the kids through batteries of tests if they are not to be administered or used properly?

Why even allow parents to refer their kids, since according to you "if a child needs the AAP class it will be obvious to the teachers"! What nonsense!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Since making the pool based on test scores does not guarantee anything to begin with in regard to aap acceptance, age adjusting is irrelevant.
In the past 40% of non pool kids have made it in AAP. Its laughable to think a couple of percentile points would make any difference in the evaluation process.

So, according to your logic, if someone told you that you would be making $50 less a year because of your age, it would be OK because it wouldn't make much difference in your total income anyway, right?

Any way you see this, if the CogAT scores this year are not age-normed, it constitutes age discrimination, which last I checked was still illegal in this country - even if it only affects one kid out of 10,000. Period. How difficult is it for you people to understand it?

FYI, age-based normalization doesn't affect my kid, because he has a Jan. birthday and is already in the pool. But I can clearly see how FCPS screwed up big time this year, if the scores are not age-normed. I also understand completely how parents, even if their kids are not directly (or significantly) affected, are upset by such an arbitrary decision by FCPS, that has lead to a scientifically incorrect implementation of this test with illegal consequences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, are you out of your mind? In what IQ based test do younger kids score equally to older ones? Those raising issues with the test here have every right to, it was bungled by those supposedly making it more fair and equitable to the process. Also, I am sick and tired of hearing those lecturing that it doesn't matter, just refer in, its a package deal, a percent here or there doesn't matter, etc. For many borderline kids, and there will be many, it does matter. Those who do not reach pool level scores will most likely have to take the WISC and appeal. This is an added burden and to many a cost that may not be affordable. Also, less informed parents may not even know the best way to mount an appeal.

On the other side, there are an equal number of red shirted kids who are benefiting at the cost of those who were not age adjusted up, and into the pool. An equal number of them would have to drop out for those younger ones who deserve to be in.

You are assuming that the kids who started school a year late are more advanced than everyone else.

Most of the people I know who choose to do this, do so because their kids are a bit behind, either socially or academically, or both.

Just because they are older does not necessarily mean that they scored better.

Then why is the NNAT and national CogAT tests age normalized within the grade level tests? Why is the WISC age adjusted? Why are IQ tests age adjusted?

+1000. FCPS bungled the FFX CogAT. They ought to age norm it. I would say pure incompetence and may try to cover up by *sacrificing* younger kids. Please call the AART and ask them to pass on the age norming issue to the Central Screening committee.

I would say, call or e-mail Dr. Carol V. Horn (571-423-4740, [e-mail]) directly. She is the AAP coordinator for FCPS, so she should be aware of this issue and provide advice to parents and the screening committee.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since making the pool based on test scores does not guarantee anything to begin with in regard to aap acceptance, age adjusting is irrelevant.
In the past 40% of non pool kids have made it in AAP. Its laughable to think a couple of percentile points would make any difference in the evaluation process.

So, according to your logic, if someone told you that you would be making $50 less a year because of your age, it would be OK because it wouldn't make much difference in your total income anyway, right?

Any way you see this, if the CogAT scores this year are not age-normed, it constitutes age discrimination, which last I checked was still illegal in this country - even if it only affects one kid out of 10,000. Period. How difficult is it for you people to understand it?

FYI, age-based normalization doesn't affect my kid, because he has a Jan. birthday and is already in the pool. But I can clearly see how FCPS screwed up big time this year, if the scores are not age-normed. I also understand completely how parents, even if their kids are not directly (or significantly) affected, are upset by such an arbitrary decision by FCPS, that has lead to a scientifically incorrect implementation of this test with illegal consequences.

+1000. I am astounded at how many here can rationalize this situation by saying, "just refer in, it does not matter", "the teachers will pick the right kids who should be in", "there would not be that much adjustment anyway", etc. The test is tainted. The results for summer/fall kids are low and red shirt kids have scored into the pool unfairly. It is one of two primary tests used to set the pool, and arguably the heavier weighted given its three sections and 3 days of testing (versus the 38 question NNAT).

There are plenty of scores to normalize this test. This makes me question the intelligence of the committee and those who oversaw the design of this test for Fairfax County. Maybe in the future they should just let professionals make the tests, score them, and mail the scores out on a timely basis instead of collating them at the last minute on a hokey PowerPoint printout.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since making the pool based on test scores does not guarantee anything to begin with in regard to aap acceptance, age adjusting is irrelevant.
In the past 40% of non pool kids have made it in AAP. Its laughable to think a couple of percentile points would make any difference in the evaluation process.

So, according to your logic, if someone told you that you would be making $50 less a year because of your age, it would be OK because it wouldn't make much difference in your total income anyway, right?

Any way you see this, if the CogAT scores this year are not age-normed, it constitutes [b]age discrimination, which last I checked was still illegal in this country - even if it only affects one kid out of 10,000[/b]. Period. How difficult is it for you people to understand it?

FYI, age-based normalization doesn't affect my kid, because he has a Jan. birthday and is already in the pool. But I can clearly see how FCPS screwed up big time this year, if the scores are not age-normed. I also understand completely how parents, even if their kids are not directly (or significantly) affected, are upset by such an arbitrary decision by FCPS, that has lead to a scientifically incorrect implementation of this test with illegal consequences.

You can't really be serious? Really???

[Anonymous]

How do you know that the committee is not seeing the raw scores, or the ages?

You don't.

So calm down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do you know that the committee is not seeing the raw scores, or the ages?

You don't.

So calm down.

Direct conversations with the Fairfax testing dept. have confirmed it is not age normed. There is no evidence that "secret" raw scores are normed and made available to the committee. If such scores did exist, then by law they would be available to parents, at worst by request.

Before telling others to "calm down", try and present some real facts as to why they should.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you know that the committee is not seeing the raw scores, or the ages?

You don't.

So calm down.

Direct conversations with the Fairfax testing dept. have confirmed it is not age normed. There is no evidence that "secret" raw scores are normed and made available to the committee. If such scores did exist, then by law they would be available to parents, at worst by request.

Before telling others to "calm down", try and present some real facts as to why they should.[/quote]

Screaming lawsuits and civil rights violations for age discrimination over something like this is completely out of control and ineffective. It makes you look like a crazy person throwing a temper tantrum, not someone who has a valid argument. Blaming other parents and calling them nasty names and cheaters because they work with their kids, or send them to Kumon, or just happen to be Asian makes you look like a bitter idiot who is having a tantrum because you didn't get your way.

That is why that particular poster(s) need to calm down. They are completely irrational, and aren't helping their cause one iota. FWIW, I think the tests should have been age normed, but acting like some of the parents here is simply immature and irrational.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you know that the committee is not seeing the raw scores, or the ages?

You don't.

So calm down.

Direct conversations with the Fairfax testing dept. have confirmed it is not age normed. There is no evidence that "secret" raw scores are normed and made available to the committee. If such scores did exist, then by law they would be available to parents, at worst by request.

Before telling others to "calm down", try and present some real facts as to why they should.[/quote]

Screaming lawsuits and civil rights violations for age discrimination over something like this is completely out of control and ineffective. It makes you look like a crazy person throwing a temper tantrum, not someone who has a valid argument. Blaming other parents and calling them nasty names and cheaters because they work with their kids, or send them to Kumon, or just happen to be Asian makes you look like a bitter idiot who is having a tantrum because you didn't get your way.

Who exactly are you referring to? I was the PP who asked for facts, and you provided none. I have not commented in any of the ways you listed. I simply pointed out in a very calm way how asinine your statement was regarding secret scores that only the committee can see.

That is why that particular poster(s) need to calm down. They are completely irrational, and aren't helping their cause one iota. FWIW, I think the tests should have been age normed, but acting like some of the parents here is simply immature and irrational.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you know that the committee is not seeing the raw scores, or the ages?

You don't.

So calm down.

Direct conversations with the Fairfax testing dept. have confirmed it is not age normed. There is no evidence that "secret" raw scores are normed and made available to the committee. If such scores did exist, then by law they would be available to parents, at worst by request.

Before telling others to "calm down", try and present some real facts as to why they should.[/quote]

Screaming lawsuits and civil rights violations for age discrimination over something like this is completely out of control and ineffective. It makes you look like a crazy person throwing a temper tantrum, not someone who has a valid argument. Blaming other parents and calling them nasty names and cheaters because they work with their kids, or send them to Kumon, or just happen to be Asian makes you look like a bitter idiot who is having a tantrum because you didn't get your way.

That is why that particular poster(s) need to calm down. They are completely irrational, and aren't helping their cause one iota. FWIW, I think the tests should have been age normed, but acting like some of the parents here is simply immature and irrational.

Who exactly are you referring to? I was the PP who asked for facts to support your assertion, and you provided none. I have not commented in any of the ways you listed. I simply pointed out in a very calm way how asinine your statement was regarding secret scores that only the committee can see.

Before flaming the wrong person, please try and "calm down" and think your thoughts through before posting.