WHY does the Catholic Church make things so damn difficult?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yikes, I am sad when a Lutheran doesn't understand the difference between communion in a Catholic Church and a Lutheran church. That is a pretty big point to miss.

Actually, the above statements regarding the difference are accurate. The RCC teaches that Protestants believe that communion is "symbolic," but this is because that is the RCC view of Protestant communion - it is not the teaching of the Lutheran church.

“Consubstantiation” is a term commonly applied to the Lutheran concept of the communion supper, though some modern Lutheran theologians reject the use of this term because of its ambiguity. The expression, however, is generally associated with Luther. The idea is that in the communion, the body and blood of Christ, and the bread and wine, coexist in union with each other. “Luther illustrated it by the analogy of the iron put into the fire whereby both fire and iron are united in the red-hot iron and yet each continues unchanged” (The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, F.L. Cross, Ed., London: Oxford, 1958, p. 337).

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/477-what-are-transubstantiation-and-consubstantiation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharistic_theologies_contrasted

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_Transubstantiation_in_the_Catholic_Church_differ_from_Consubstantiation_in_the_Lutheran_Church

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's the actual tithing requirement? I was raised Catholic and never heard Catholics refer to "tithing" -- I thought that was more of a Protestant term. We had a collection of course, and there were envelopes, but I never heard of "tithing".

Anyhow -- is there a certain amount you are expected to tithe, weekly, for 3 months, that qualifies you to be a godparent? Because for someone who isn't much of an observant Catholic, but who nevertheless wants to be considered as a Godparent, seems it would be easy enough in those big impersonal churches (and there are many now with the priest shortage) to use make sure someone drops in the correct sized donation every week into the collection basket.

The best thing about ridiculous rules is that there are so many ways to circumvent them.

There is absolutely no tithing requirement. There is a requirement that you are a practicing catholic, which is shown by a letter from your parish. Some parishes require that they know you have been attending mass in order to sign such a letter. One way of show mass attendance is putting an envelope in the collection. It can be an empty envelope and it counts.

Not IME. There was a requirement for our Godparents. Besides who would put an 'empty' envelope in the collection? I'll add that I knew someone who quit the church because after her husband died unexpectedly the church came asking for more money. There are some 'bad apples' in the church for sure.

What parish did this? Requiring Godparents to give money is completely at odds with the teaching of the church. And I know plenty of people who have put in empty envelopes for a variety of reasons.

Suburbs of Pittsburgh, PA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why would anyone put in an empty envelope?

It could be a way of showing attendance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I make sense.

Those who just keep the peace w/o ignoring any of the problems are enablers.

If you don't question the church, you're basically excusing all the sexual predators hidden by those high up. I am probably more religious than many of you, as my culture cannot be separated from Catholicism. In fact, we "corner" the Catholic market!

However, when I encounter such "devout" Catholics - like you, PP - who question those of us who want the church to change for the better, I do indeed think I'm surrounded by religious zealots.

So b/c I want to help change the church for the better - b/c we should all move forward/evolve, right, PP? - I should leave instead?

Soon you'll be one of a 100 Catholics left b/c of your blind faith.

Anonymous wrote:I am really, really puzzled as to why you want to be Catholic, or why you want your children to have sacraments in the Catholic church.

It doesn't make an iota of sense based on your post.

Is it because of family? You are a grown up; find a religion that you actually believe in.

Ritual? Why not Anglican (if you are liberal) or Lutheran (if you are moderate). You can still get the ceremony of the Mass, but in adherance to your belief structure.

If you don't believe and in fact mock the main tenets of this faith, and have such distain for those who practice it, then why be Catholic?

You do not make any sense.

Anonymous wrote:I think it's unreasonable to think that godparents HAVE to be bible-thumping Catholics! Quite frankly, I don't have that many "good" Catholics in my life. My childrens' godparents aren't at mass every Sunday, and some don't even belong to a church. Our church wasn't that picky. I want people in my childrens' lives who love them as much as we do and who WILL treat them as their own should anything happen to us. I don't give a rat's ass if they're not in church every Sunday either.

Furthermore, transubstantiation is ridiculous. Basically, it's cannibalism if you truly believe the host and wine turn into body and blood. When my daughter had her Communion, she thought the whole transformation was bizarre. And I'm glad she had that reaction. So I told her that there are other religions that don't believe in that process, believing it to be symbolic instead.

OP, keep questioning, and ignore people who can't see beyond these "rules." Maybe one day, if enough people start to complain, the Catholic church will indeed change. As it stands now, the whole pedophilia scandal (with creeps still coming out of the woodwork) isn't exactly making the church attractive to many.

Anonymous wrote:Cradle Catholic here and I've never heard of godparents having to prove that they've given money to their parish. They have to be registered parishoners and have a form filled out by the priest at their parish. Not terribly unreasonable, again, considering they are standing up saying they are Catholics in good standing and are supporting you in raising your child as a Catholic.

With regard to the Lutheran poster, unless you were attending a very liberal church at which the priests looked the other way the Catholic church has never been open to non-Catholics receiving communion. Join us in prayer, yes, but only those who have been baptized and received the Sacrament of the Eucharist are to receive holy communion. It's not an insult, it's part of the faith.

OP, if indeed your priest is heaping tons of requirements on you, I can see where you would be frustrated. We had challenges with the parish where we received our pre-Cana marriage counseling. However, with all due respect, you haven't articulated what the requirements are that you are deeming so outrageous.

Going back to your original post...transubstantiation really has nothing to do with sexual predators. I don't think transubstantiation is ridiculous however I do believe that sexual predators should be punished and that the church should deal with that reality. The Eucharist is the heart of the Catholic faith so if you don't believe in it you don't really believe in the Catholic faith. Really that what Catholic is -- a faith not a culture.

So you'll separate the Hasidic Jew from his Jewish "culture?" It's one and the same for many.

As an Italian Catholic, it's one and the same.

So don't tell me that faith is not a culture.

However, as I mentioned earlier, there's a lot that needs to be reformed. And those who blindly follow doctrine only make it worse for the church, as it's losing many followers.

And why are YOU comparing transubstantiation with sexual predators? I never said they were the same or related. I am claiming that this blind faith will ultimately blind you to what's really going on in the church. Do you seriously think that the church is free of predators? As we move forward, we STILL hear horror stories of pedophiles who have been protected by the church.

Sadly, I am beginning to realize that so many Catholics have NO critical thinking skills - choosing instead to believe some of the tales in the bible are true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's the actual tithing requirement? I was raised Catholic and never heard Catholics refer to "tithing" -- I thought that was more of a Protestant term. We had a collection of course, and there were envelopes, but I never heard of "tithing".

Anyhow -- is there a certain amount you are expected to tithe, weekly, for 3 months, that qualifies you to be a godparent? Because for someone who isn't much of an observant Catholic, but who nevertheless wants to be considered as a Godparent, seems it would be easy enough in those big impersonal churches (and there are many now with the priest shortage) to use make sure someone drops in the correct sized donation every week into the collection basket.

The best thing about ridiculous rules is that there are so many ways to circumvent them.

There is absolutely no tithing requirement. There is a requirement that you are a practicing catholic, which is shown by a letter from your parish. Some parishes require that they know you have been attending mass in order to sign such a letter. One way of show mass attendance is putting an envelope in the collection. It can be an empty envelope and it counts.

Not IME. There was a requirement for our Godparents. Besides who would put an 'empty' envelope in the collection? I'll add that I knew someone who quit the church because after her husband died unexpectedly the church came asking for more money. There are some 'bad apples' in the church for sure.

What parish did this? Requiring Godparents to give money is completely at odds with the teaching of the church. And I know plenty of people who have put in empty envelopes for a variety of reasons.

Suburbs of Pittsburgh, PA

Here are the diocese of pittsburgh's requirements for godparents. Giving money is not on the list.
http://www.diopitt.org/department-worship/frequently-asked-questions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I make sense.

Those who just keep the peace w/o ignoring any of the problems are enablers.

If you don't question the church, you're basically excusing all the sexual predators hidden by those high up. I am probably more religious than many of you, as my culture cannot be separated from Catholicism. In fact, we "corner" the Catholic market!

However, when I encounter such "devout" Catholics - like you, PP - who question those of us who want the church to change for the better, I do indeed think I'm surrounded by religious zealots.

So b/c I want to help change the church for the better - b/c we should all move forward/evolve, right, PP? - I should leave instead?

Soon you'll be one of a 100 Catholics left b/c of your blind faith.

Anonymous wrote:I am really, really puzzled as to why you want to be Catholic, or why you want your children to have sacraments in the Catholic church.

It doesn't make an iota of sense based on your post.

Is it because of family? You are a grown up; find a religion that you actually believe in.

Ritual? Why not Anglican (if you are liberal) or Lutheran (if you are moderate). You can still get the ceremony of the Mass, but in adherance to your belief structure.

If you don't believe and in fact mock the main tenets of this faith, and have such distain for those who practice it, then why be Catholic?

You do not make any sense.

Anonymous wrote:I think it's unreasonable to think that godparents HAVE to be bible-thumping Catholics! Quite frankly, I don't have that many "good" Catholics in my life. My childrens' godparents aren't at mass every Sunday, and some don't even belong to a church. Our church wasn't that picky. I want people in my childrens' lives who love them as much as we do and who WILL treat them as their own should anything happen to us. I don't give a rat's ass if they're not in church every Sunday either.

Furthermore, transubstantiation is ridiculous. Basically, it's cannibalism if you truly believe the host and wine turn into body and blood. When my daughter had her Communion, she thought the whole transformation was bizarre. And I'm glad she had that reaction. So I told her that there are other religions that don't believe in that process, believing it to be symbolic instead.

OP, keep questioning, and ignore people who can't see beyond these "rules." Maybe one day, if enough people start to complain, the Catholic church will indeed change. As it stands now, the whole pedophilia scandal (with creeps still coming out of the woodwork) isn't exactly making the church attractive to many.

Anonymous wrote:Cradle Catholic here and I've never heard of godparents having to prove that they've given money to their parish. They have to be registered parishoners and have a form filled out by the priest at their parish. Not terribly unreasonable, again, considering they are standing up saying they are Catholics in good standing and are supporting you in raising your child as a Catholic.

With regard to the Lutheran poster, unless you were attending a very liberal church at which the priests looked the other way the Catholic church has never been open to non-Catholics receiving communion. Join us in prayer, yes, but only those who have been baptized and received the Sacrament of the Eucharist are to receive holy communion. It's not an insult, it's part of the faith.

OP, if indeed your priest is heaping tons of requirements on you, I can see where you would be frustrated. We had challenges with the parish where we received our pre-Cana marriage counseling. However, with all due respect, you haven't articulated what the requirements are that you are deeming so outrageous.

Going back to your original post...transubstantiation really has nothing to do with sexual predators. I don't think transubstantiation is ridiculous however I do believe that sexual predators should be punished and that the church should deal with that reality. The Eucharist is the heart of the Catholic faith so if you don't believe in it you don't really believe in the Catholic faith. Really that what Catholic is -- a faith not a culture.

So you'll separate the Hasidic Jew from his Jewish "culture?" It's one and the same for many.

As an Italian Catholic, it's one and the same.

So don't tell me that faith is not a culture.
However, as I mentioned earlier, there's a lot that needs to be reformed. And those who blindly follow doctrine only make it worse for the church, as it's losing many followers.

And why are YOU comparing transubstantiation with sexual predators? I never said they were the same or related. I am claiming that this blind faith will ultimately blind you to what's really going on in the church. Do you seriously think that the church is free of predators? As we move forward, we STILL hear horror stories of pedophiles who have been protected by the church.

Sadly, I am beginning to realize that so many Catholics have NO critical thinking skills - choosing instead to believe some of the tales in the bible are true.

I agree - as a cultural Irish Catholic, I'm puzzled by anyone who would say that Catholicism is not a culture. It may not be a culture for everyone, but for this Boston Irish-Catholic, it sure is.

[Anonymous]

Requiring Godparents to give money is completely at odds with the teaching of the church.

I don't think the problem is giving money per se, but rather, using tithing as a way to demonstrate regular attendance in large parishes where priests don't necessarily know the parishoners that well.

[Anonymous]

Actually you brought it up...

If you don't question the church, you're basically excusing all the sexual predators hidden by those high up.

Questioning the behaviors of the men running the Church, e.g. hiding the pedophiles, is absolutely appropriate and necessary. Questioning silliness at a parochial level that is at the heart of any bureaucracy is well and good. You seem to be espousing questioning matters of faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree - as a cultural Irish Catholic, I'm puzzled by anyone who would say that Catholicism is not a culture. It may not be a culture for everyone, but for this Boston Irish-Catholic, it sure is.

I'm not the one who said it's not a culture, because I think it can be, in much the same way that some people self-identify culturally as Jews. The Italian-Catholic PP is saying that she is Catholic in culture, but I guess I wonder based on her statements what that means. She says she thinks godparents don't need to be good Catholics. Transubstantiation is baloney. She seems to be encouraging questioning of matters of faith (which differ from those rules set forth by the human-led bureacracy that is the Vatican). Saying "I'm Catholic" and not eating fish on Fridays does not a Catholic make.

I suppose that could be a separate, and interesting (if it didn't get hijacked by Catholic bashers), thread with regard to how a practicing Catholic might define Catholicism as a culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wait - so not only do they have to prove they go to church every week, they have to prove that they give money to their church every week? Is there a minimum? This is blackmail!

It can be an empty envelop.

It is a way to take roll.

I supposed if you don't want to do that, you can always make sure you stay until the end of Mass and chat with the priest every week on the way out of church each Sunday.

If you do this for a month or two the priest will recognize you as a regular, practicing Catholic and you won't need to worry about the envelop issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Actually you brought it up...

If you don't question the church, you're basically excusing all the sexual predators hidden by those high up.

Questioning the behaviors of the men running the Church, e.g. hiding the pedophiles, is absolutely appropriate and necessary. Questioning silliness at a parochial level that is at the heart of any bureaucracy is well and good. You seem to be espousing questioning matters of faith.

Of course I'm questioning faith.

I have yet to attend a mass where pedophilia was addressed. It's been addressed at Virtus training. That's it. Until we start to question WHERE our money goes, the sickness will continue. The church is not all lollipops and gummy bears, people.

I give to my church and to its building fund. Cardinal's Appeal is BS to me. Furthermore, how many of you receive the yearly letter breaking down donations by income level - and then asking for more? really?

Start to question if you want to make things better for the church. Even the nuns were fighting the dogma not too long ago.

Lord help us if we ever allow a woman to become a priest. Wouldn't THAT give a few blind Catholics a stroke?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's the actual tithing requirement? I was raised Catholic and never heard Catholics refer to "tithing" -- I thought that was more of a Protestant term. We had a collection of course, and there were envelopes, but I never heard of "tithing".

Anyhow -- is there a certain amount you are expected to tithe, weekly, for 3 months, that qualifies you to be a godparent? Because for someone who isn't much of an observant Catholic, but who nevertheless wants to be considered as a Godparent, seems it would be easy enough in those big impersonal churches (and there are many now with the priest shortage) to use make sure someone drops in the correct sized donation every week into the collection basket.

The best thing about ridiculous rules is that there are so many ways to circumvent them.

There is absolutely no tithing requirement. There is a requirement that you are a practicing catholic, which is shown by a letter from your parish. Some parishes require that they know you have been attending mass in order to sign such a letter. One way of show mass attendance is putting an envelope in the collection. It can be an empty envelope and it counts.

Not IME. There was a requirement for our Godparents. Besides who would put an 'empty' envelope in the collection? I'll add that I knew someone who quit the church because after her husband died unexpectedly the church came asking for more money. There are some 'bad apples' in the church for sure.

What parish did this? Requiring Godparents to give money is completely at odds with the teaching of the church. And I know plenty of people who have put in empty envelopes for a variety of reasons.

Suburbs of Pittsburgh, PA

Here are the diocese of pittsburgh's requirements for godparents. Giving money is not on the list.
http://www.diopitt.org/department-worship/frequently-asked-questions

I wish that were true, but those requirements make what our Godparents went through look easy. No, this was in the suburbs and one, out of state Godparent had to go to great lengths to prove giving money as well as staying active by continuing to give on a regular basis (even after the baptism)...it was really not a great experience for us.

[Anonymous]

People, it's not called tithing in the Catholic church.

[Anonymous]

OP- For godparents, all my church asks is for something confirming they are a practicing Catholic from their own parish. I am curious what your parish's requirements are and what the two changes have been. It sounds like some kind of misunderstanding. There isn't a way to "prove" Attendance at Mass but a record of financial support is a way for someone who is not personally involved enough for the priest recognize them (usually priedts recognize regular attendees and can confirm their "active" status easily) to prove that they are a parishioner.

[Anonymous]

In all fairness on the donations issue - my mom is a religious Catholic who has stopped making monetary donations after the sex abuse scandal. She attends mass, is in the choir, and has gotten letters to become a godmother twice since she stopped donating monetarily.