WaPo: Three-year-old suspended from Arlington preschool for too many potty accidents

[Anonymous]

I think I can pick out the kid in kindergarten who didn't go to preschool. Heck, I remember the kid in my kindergarten class back in 1977 who didn't go to preschool. She was a little different.

[Anonymous]

So because some kids benefit from preschool and because some three-year-olds are not ready to potty train, all preschools must be open to all kids and none may require that the kids be potty-trained.

Gotcha.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The APS pre-school program is similar to DCPS except that DCPS is free and kids are not required to be potty trained. As for the benefits of pre-school, why would you allow your tax dollars to subsidize a program that has no benefits? Plus where is the link to the research that shows pre-schools have no benefits?

I love how the anonymity of the internet lulls people into thinking they know everything. Keep drinking the kool aid of ignorance.

Fairfax County did a great report on this http://www.fcps.edu/accountability/off_prog_eval/p...day_kindergarten_implement.pdf. Unless a child comes from low income and/or limited English proficient home, there is no marginal benefit in education. That's why these programs are open first to the low income/LEP kids.

[Anonymous]

I find the posts on this topic to be depressing. The judgement and holier than thou attitude of many of the posters is sad and depressing. Are you all this judgmental to your friends and family? I read the article and I cannot help but wonder if the other people commenting on here read the same article. It sounds like Zoe was potty trained and when she started preschool, she had a couple of accidents. I have seen this happen at my children's Montessori School and the teachers don't make a big deal out of it. The first preschool Zoe went to did. According to the article "Zoe's teacher announced in front of everyone how many accidents the child had that day." Apparently this teacher was taught that you should humiliate children to get them to change their behavior. Maybe that is how she was treated when she was young so that is all she knows. I would hope that she would rethink that approach and realize it doesn't work in the long-term (studies bear this out). At the new school the article stated that Zoe would be dry for weeks and then have several accidents. Apparently the little girl cleaned up after herself and changed her own clothes--this is all good. Given the schools policy, however, I wonder wether she was made aware that she had done something "bad" and if this stressed her out. Whether intentional or not the school's policy is basically designed to stress a kid out over toilet training. Have too many and you are out of here kid. Can you imagine the pressure of having an accident in that place? She probably felt like everyone was just waiting for her to screw up. That's hardly a great environment for a 3 year old.

Both of my kids went to a wonderful, nurturing Montessori preschool in DC. Both were completely trained by the time they went to school. At their school, kids had accidents. Some kids had frequent accidents. The last thing I ever saw any teacher do was to make the child feel ashamed or bad about him/her self because of it. All that does is stress the child out more and lead to more accidents and stress for the child. I do think the school's policy is unreasonable. I can think of several kids that would have been kicked out of my children's school if their school had this same policy. I also think the way the administration responded shows a lack of understanding of Maria Montessori's philosophy. She believed that children have an inner desire to be independent and take care of their own needs. A good Montessori teacher supports the child by providing an environment that supports the child on their path to independence-not one that makes them feel stressed out or incompetent. The approach taken in this case is counter to her philosophy.

Finally, it seems like a lot of posters want to blame Zoe's Mom and make assumptions about her. Most Moms I meet are trying to do the best for their kids. I try to meet them with compassion because I hope to be treated that way by others. I am also keenly aware that my children are watching me. I don't want them to grow up and judge everyone around them. I try to encourage them to be compassionate and to try to put themselves in the other person's shoes. I wish some of the posters on this thread would do that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Finally, it seems like a lot of posters want to blame Zoe's Mom and make assumptions about her. Most Moms I meet are trying to do the best for their kids. I try to meet them with compassion because I hope to be treated that way by others. I am also keenly aware that my children are watching me. I don't want them to grow up and judge everyone around them. I try to encourage them to be compassionate and to try to put themselves in the other person's shoes. I wish some of the posters on this thread would do that.

I could not agree more with your whole post, but I especially feel that this needed to be said. The judgment is astonishing.

I'd also like to point out another folly of the whole toilet training as the rule for entering preschool - my 3 year old DS is toilet trained. He has a VERY mature bladder, and hasn't had a daytime accident in months. But his bladder is about the only mature thing about him. He is in no way ready for school, he can't even take a toddler sports class because he flat out refuses to listen to teachers. Yet, simply for the very fact that he's toilet trained, he could go to a preschool that Zoe could not. Zoe's parents obviously thought she was ready to be in school (and it sounds like she's doing fine at her current school). Why should my son take the place of a child who really should be there, but can't because of minor bladder control issues? Why is that the most important criteria for being in preschool?

[Anonymous]

Finally, it seems like a lot of posters want to blame Zoe's Mom and make assumptions about her. Most Moms I meet are trying to do the best for their kids. I try to meet them with compassion because I hope to be treated that way by others. I am also keenly aware that my children are watching me. I don't want them to grow up and judge everyone around them. I try to encourage them to be compassionate and to try to put themselves in the other person's shoes. I wish some of the posters on this thread would do that.

I think we see different lessons than you do. Whether Zoe was actually potty trained or not is irrelevant. The schools wasn't a good fit for her. When discussing childcare arrangements, people often talk about the "feeling" they get from their provider and if the "feeling" isn't good, the advice is often to find a different provider because you really need to have confidence in who's with your child. Providers will also sometimes give parents notice because they aren't getting a positive feeling from the parent/child (I know, my MIL is a state licensed provider). This preschool thing really isn't any different. For whatever reason, it wasn't working for one of the parties. The lesson Betsy should have helped her DD learn was that sometimes things don't work out the way we want so we do something else. Instead, Betsy acted like a sore loser and lashed out at the school - and that's giving Betsy the benefit of the doubt.

Even if Zoe actually was potty trained, the number of accidents she was having (and I don't buy that a 3 year old can clean up after herself without adult assistance) was too disruptive for the school. The school isn't equipped to handle it and instead of showing respect for that (another missed opportunity to teach her DD a valuable lesson), Betsy makes a case out of it and goes to the WaPo.

I've got three kids, two of whom are special needs and none of whom were potty trained at age 3. In fact, my almost 5 yo periodically is in pull ups because he still regresses. Having SN kids has really made me much more compassionate for the struggles parents have but in this case I'm not. Betsy failed to recognize her DD's challenges and continued to put her in schools that weren't appropriate for her. Okay, those are mistakes but rather than recognizing it, Betsy blames someone else for the consequences of her choices. Even my SN kids know there are consequences for their choices but Betsy seems to think this was something done unfairly to her and Zoe. That's why I have no compassion for Betsy.

[Anonymous]

The other thing that noone has mentioned is that you usually have to register for and make decisions re: preschools very far in advance. It's really hard to know at 2 1/2 whether your child will be FULLY potty trained in 6 months. Therefore, it's really hard to plan. And it's not so easy to change once the school year has started.

[Anonymous]

I agree that it isn't easy to change once the school year has started. I also agree this is horrible for any school to make a public spectacle of a child who has had an accident. But it makes me sad for Zoe that her mother kept her in that environment for months because it may have been hard for her to change or find a new school.

At the end of the day our jobs as parents is to protect and love our children. We were in a bad care environment in a nanny share. It was clear that the nanny found our very refluxy baby too much to handle. The minute I got that vibe I had to get him out of the situation. It was incredibly stressful and I did lose my job over it but at the end of the day I had to do it for him. That is what parents do everyday. They make hard choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree that it isn't easy to change once the school year has started. I also agree this is horrible for any school to make a public spectacle of a child who has had an accident. But it makes me sad for Zoe that her mother kept her in that environment for months because it may have been hard for her to change or find a new school.

At the end of the day our jobs as parents is to protect and love our children. We were in a bad care environment in a nanny share. It was clear that the nanny found our very refluxy baby too much to handle. The minute I got that vibe I had to get him out of the situation. It was incredibly stressful and I did lose my job over it but at the end of the day I had to do it for him. That is what parents do everyday. They make hard choices.

Wait, who made the public spectacle of Zoe? Did I miss the part where APS got a national newspaper to write a front page story about this child and her potty-training issues?

No, that's right...it's coming back to me now...IT WAS HER MOM. The one who is supposed to protect her child.

Come on, now, people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree that it isn't easy to change once the school year has started. I also agree this is horrible for any school to make a public spectacle of a child who has had an accident. But it makes me sad for Zoe that her mother kept her in that environment for months because it may have been hard for her to change or find a new school.

At the end of the day our jobs as parents is to protect and love our children. We were in a bad care environment in a nanny share. It was clear that the nanny found our very refluxy baby too much to handle. The minute I got that vibe I had to get him out of the situation. It was incredibly stressful and I did lose my job over it but at the end of the day I had to do it for him. That is what parents do everyday. They make hard choices.

Wait, who made the public spectacle of Zoe? Did I miss the part where APS got a national newspaper to write a front page story about this child and her potty-training issues?

No, that's right...it's coming back to me now...IT WAS HER MOM. The one who is supposed to protect her child.

Come on, now, people.

I'm not the PP you quoted, but I think you are misunderstanding the bolded. I believe what the PP is referring to there is the teacher at Zoe's first school announcing her accidents in front of her class.

[Anonymous]

You're right, what kind of mother exposes her small child to national humiliation like that? It's disgusting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree that it isn't easy to change once the school year has started. I also agree this is horrible for any school to make a public spectacle of a child who has had an accident. But it makes me sad for Zoe that her mother kept her in that environment for months because it may have been hard for her to change or find a new school.

At the end of the day our jobs as parents is to protect and love our children. We were in a bad care environment in a nanny share. It was clear that the nanny found our very refluxy baby too much to handle. The minute I got that vibe I had to get him out of the situation. It was incredibly stressful and I did lose my job over it but at the end of the day I had to do it for him. That is what parents do everyday. They make hard choices.

Wait, who made the public spectacle of Zoe? Did I miss the part where APS got a national newspaper to write a front page story about this child and her potty-training issues?

No, that's right...it's coming back to me now...IT WAS HER MOM. The one who is supposed to protect her child.

Come on, now, people.

[Anonymous]

I think the article in the post or maybe it was Petula Dvorak response pointed to the fact that back in the 1950's a high percentage of kids were potty trained by three. I'm not saying there aren't reasons for the later ages these days but I have to question how developmentally it was possible for our parents and grandparents but not for our kids.

That said, my oldest wasn't fully potty trained until 3 1/2 and I was sweating every minute before she started Montessori. It was frustrating as a parent to know academically she was ready but potty training could have completely changed where she could go. However it would not have occurred to me that the school would bend its rules for me. Instead I was checking out potty training books, getting advice from parents that had used a specialist, taken off work for a boot camp, worked with the daycare program my child was in. I also had a play based program that didnt have the same deadline as a backup. I also think my daughter could have gone to a playbased program and done well in kindergarten but would have put more work on me to get her ahead in math.

I'm not trying to be holier than thou but as a parent there is a lot you have to work out between job and childcare situation. If you have a child that is constantly sick with ear infections you can complain about the preschool sick policy or figure out if this means a nanny, staying home , if family can help etc. Same about having a job that can get u to pickup at 6 pm. No preschool is going to accept late pickups for any amount of time. You always have to find an option that fits your situation- sometimes with great stress and maybe sacrifices and can't demand/expect all the options to work around your situation.

[Anonymous]

I think a big part of the earlier potty training was cloth diapers - the kids felt wet in a way that they don't in disposable diapers. I know that for me keeping the kids in disposables was in a sense easier since we spend so much time on the go and in the car. When I was little and had a SAHM I was home (and close to the potty a lot).

I still think that there was little to be gained by putting this in the WASHINGTON POST. Every time this poor kid's name is Googled this is going to come up. I can't imagine she is going to thank her mom. If this is her mom's judgment, then I would not think to hire her for help with communications of all things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You make no sense. Betsy Rosso considered Zoe potty trained, the school did not. If Betsy wanted the school to work with Zoe on it, she should have chosen one that provided that level of service. To use your sleep analogy, if the kids were required to sleep through the night but weren't, the school would be within their rights to ask the student to leave. The parents should find a school that better fits their needs.

But then Zoe started a new school and had no more accidents. So doesn't that sort of speak to the fact that she actually WAS toilet trained, and was having accidents at this school for another reason? Possibly going straight from the "shaming" school to a new environment that was also not very nurturing wasn't, in hindsight, the best move, but clearly Zoe needed to get out of the first school ASAP. And is it really THAT unreasonable to expect a class of 3 year olds to be staffed by people who are actually competent at assisting young children through transitions and to come up with solutions to very common problems, like why a child is having repeated accidents at school but not at home?

My daughter is in her third year in the Claremont Montessori class Zoe attended. Both teachers are wonderful and the atmosphere is very nurturing. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, it wasn't a good fit for Zoe. I am really tired of the negative buzz about these teachers and about Claremont. In my family's experience (and I am far from alone here, judging from all the happy, thriving children and parents I interact with practically every day), it is a great school and a happy learning community.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You make no sense. Betsy Rosso considered Zoe potty trained, the school did not. If Betsy wanted the school to work with Zoe on it, she should have chosen one that provided that level of service. To use your sleep analogy, if the kids were required to sleep through the night but weren't, the school would be within their rights to ask the student to leave. The parents should find a school that better fits their needs.

But then Zoe started a new school and had no more accidents. So doesn't that sort of speak to the fact that she actually WAS toilet trained, and was having accidents at this school for another reason? Possibly going straight from the "shaming" school to a new environment that was also not very nurturing wasn't, in hindsight, the best move, but clearly Zoe needed to get out of the first school ASAP. And is it really THAT unreasonable to expect a class of 3 year olds to be staffed by people who are actually competent at assisting young children through transitions and to come up with solutions to very common problems, like why a child is having repeated accidents at school but not at home?

My daughter is in her third year in the Claremont Montessori class Zoe attended. Both teachers are wonderful and the atmosphere is very nurturing. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, it wasn't a good fit for Zoe. I am really tired of the negative buzz about these teachers and about Claremont. In my family's experience (and I am far from alone here, judging from all the happy, thriving children and parents I interact with practically every day), it is a great school and a happy learning community.

This thread died 3 weeks ago. If you're tired of the buzz, perhaps you should refrain from breathing life into it.