Over 280 University of California STEM faculty members have signed an open letter calling on the UC Board of Regents to

[Anonymous]

At my DC’s OOS school the kids getting into UCLA and Berkeley each year are not the top performers. Looking at the scattergrams many can’t even break a 1300 on the SAT. It is a head scratcher. The lack of SAT makes it much easier to create a narrative in your PIQs that will get you in. It’s insane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How has no one made a more comprehensive exam than the sat?

The dirty little secret- no standardized test, even holding for income, no matters its flavor, exists that will not reveal racial gaps. PSAT, MCAT, ACT, AP, LSAT, GRE, NNAT, CogAT, GMAT, USMLE, OAT and on and on.

It's not that California doesn't want a standardized test; it only want one that yields demographically equal performances.

I’m not really speaking on the racial differences. It’s the absolute lack of content and skill required to get a 1400 on the SAT.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

Except opportunity isn’t equal across the state. You’d eliminate any poor person or individual born in a rural area from having a top education.

I think this is part of the political problem in California. There’s a lot of rural whites who don’t understand this yet, because they think whites are always superior, but who if admissions tests come back are going to be displeased to learn that the top UCs are effectively closed to rural whites.

This is a canard. There are not that many rural whites living in California. Rural students in California make up less than 10% of public school students. Of that 10% the majority are Hispanic. But keep up with your anti-white crusade if that makes you feel better.

The PP is obviously not anti white lmao. What a nonsensical thing to say.

[Anonymous]

CA’s geographic focus isn’t really “rural” the way people in other states think about rural. Many counties are classified rural historically but in reality most of the UC admits that aren’t low income recruits are suburban kids. Fresno, Stockton, Modesto, Sacremento, Santa Cruz area, Inland Empire, San Bernardino, etc etc basically anything that isn’t the Bay Area, a particular area in north San Diego or a particular area in LA are admitted with far weaker ECs, little to no DE, fewer APs with 5 etc.

The geographic focus started over 15 years ago when CA voters voted to stop considering race in admissions. The regents decided to use zip code and recruitment programs to identify and admit to maintain and increase racial diversity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:CA’s geographic focus isn’t really “rural” the way people in other states think about rural. Many counties are classified rural historically but in reality most of the UC admits that aren’t low income recruits are suburban kids. Fresno, Stockton, Modesto, Sacremento, Santa Cruz area, Inland Empire, San Bernardino, etc etc basically anything that isn’t the Bay Area, a particular area in north San Diego or a particular area in LA are admitted with far weaker ECs, little to no DE, fewer APs with 5 etc.

The geographic focus started over 15 years ago when CA voters voted to stop considering race in admissions. The regents decided to use zip code and recruitment programs to identify and admit to maintain and increase racial diversity.

For good reason. Anyone been to San Bernardino? The whole area is an industrial waste dump that has terrible crime. Someone graduating out of that place with good marks damn well deserves UC admission

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're in a moderately competitive public school in southern California, and the math instruction has been very very frustrating. The integrated math system puts you on a super accelerated path or just the regular path. There's no in between, which would be perfect for our kids. Our oldest survived and is headed to HYP. We've learned to navigate the horrible curriculum and crossing fingers it works out for our younger DCs. But I am deeply disappointed that my oldest is turned off by math, even if he's pursuing a major that has nothing to do with math.

Bay Area poster here, same here. Both kids are strong at math, though only one is pursuing STEM. We also found IM really ridiculous. I also can see how kids graduate with no math skills. In DD’s IM3 class the majority of the grade was homework and quizzes. Quizzes were group quizzes. The teacher made a point of making sure a math smart kid was in each group. The other kids would just let the smart kid do all the problems. Homework was never checked, just stamped that you had it. Tests were made up of the exact same questions on the group quizzes, retakes available and same test for afternoon classes or make ups so basically designed to support cheating. AP Calc and Statistics were basically a full year of test prep, nothing more. Most (all) of the successful, high stat kids at our school either learn at home on their own using online resources or a parent, take DE courses during the summer or do Russian math.

CA tried to pull IM out awhile ago but school districts didn’t want to replace their materials. It truly is Frankenmath designed to inflate grades and deflate skills.

It makes me so mad...we just decided to put youngest DC in the regular IM track due to horrible teaching in the accelerated IM track, which means he will be poorly prepared for Calculus. But we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're in a moderately competitive public school in southern California, and the math instruction has been very very frustrating. The integrated math system puts you on a super accelerated path or just the regular path. There's no in between, which would be perfect for our kids. Our oldest survived and is headed to HYP. We've learned to navigate the horrible curriculum and crossing fingers it works out for our younger DCs. But I am deeply disappointed that my oldest is turned off by math, even if he's pursuing a major that has nothing to do with math.

Bay Area poster here, same here. Both kids are strong at math, though only one is pursuing STEM. We also found IM really ridiculous. I also can see how kids graduate with no math skills. In DD’s IM3 class the majority of the grade was homework and quizzes. Quizzes were group quizzes. The teacher made a point of making sure a math smart kid was in each group. The other kids would just let the smart kid do all the problems. Homework was never checked, just stamped that you had it. Tests were made up of the exact same questions on the group quizzes, retakes available and same test for afternoon classes or make ups so basically designed to support cheating. AP Calc and Statistics were basically a full year of test prep, nothing more. Most (all) of the successful, high stat kids at our school either learn at home on their own using online resources or a parent, take DE courses during the summer or do Russian math.

CA tried to pull IM out awhile ago but school districts didn’t want to replace their materials. It truly is Frankenmath designed to inflate grades and deflate skills.

It makes me so mad...we just decided to put youngest DC in the regular IM track due to horrible teaching in the accelerated IM track, which means he will be poorly prepared for Calculus. But we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

Just make sure their algebra is not just good, but fast. Kids who understand algebra will excel in calculus no matter their prior background in other courses.

DS’s high school requires calc to graduate. Not all the students are stem nerds, but they all have great algebra foundations and get 5s. DS’s teacher has seen students struggle in precalc and geometry but soar in Calc, because their algebra skills are solid.

[Anonymous]

I’m 100% supportive of standardized testing and fully believe that the UC system should reinstate testing as a required part of their admissions process as soon as possible.

[Anonymous]

This won’t fix anything, but it’ll make the professors lives easier for what that’s worth. California should be ashamed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:280 is a really paltry number for the size of UC. This is simply rage bait for anti CA MAGAs.

1. UCs require placement tests, so the unprepared students aren’t walking into Calculas.
2. UCs focus on conceptual math and don’t allow calculators which is the exact opposite of what is happening in high school. You can get a 750+ on the math SAT, a 5 on AP Calculus, score high enough to place into Calculus and still struggle. This is great and I’m glad they do it this way.
3. Some UCs have math professors and TAs with such strong accents that no one outside their region can understand them.
4. Math courses are weeder courses for STEM and economics. You have top students and cheaters at the top but then #2 /#3 drop too many to the bottom. The school wants a bell curve for distribution but they have a K.

The reality in CA is that there isn’t a bell curve if your class is representative of the geography, race and socioeconomic groups in CA. UCs could reinstate the SAT but that doesn’t mean that they would scrap the geographic and socioeconomic goals. Using the SAT would not reopen seats for high performing Asians and Whites.

Ultimately what needs to happen is there needs to be better math instruction in public schools AND the top students in poor schools need to be separated into honors classes that are not filled with unmotivated students. CA has taken away tracking at many poor schools so the brightest kids are stuck with loser kids who constantly disrupt the class. So who supports detracking and does not believe the top Latino and Black students should be grouped into high performing math classes- yup you guessed it UCSD's School of Education.

UCSD runs a charter middle and high school of 850 students that is on UCSD's campus where 93% of students qualify for Free/Reduced Price Lunch, with Hispanic students making up 57% and African American 22%. There are NO honors math classes at the school. They do NOT even offer AP Calculus (not even AB) only non-honors Calculus. They don't offer true honors English since the ONLY 9th and 10th grade English classes are called Advanced English.

So how does UCSD do teaching this population. Well only 33% of AP exams taken at the school received a score of 3 or higher. Only 13% exceeded math standards in 8th grade and 25% in 12th grade. These students are mixed in the same class as the 65% of students who received scores of not passing (received scores of not met or nearly met) in 8th grade and the 50% who didn't pass in 11th grade. How are smart poor kids supposed to thrive in this environment?

Maybe UCSD should be looking at the high school that is on their campus and realize this model for teaching math doesn't work. How are they not mortified at what is going on?

And how does this compare to the affluent high school by UCSD called La Jolla High School that is 7 miles away? Of course they track students into regular and advanced math. They also offer dual enrollment community college math classes at the high school - MESA COLLEGE MATH 150 CALCULUS WITH ANALYTIC GEOMETY I (Fall) Grades 11-12, MESA COLLEGE MATH 151 CALCULUS WITH ANALYTIC GEOMETY II (Spring) Grades 11-12, MESA COLLEGE MATH 254 (INTRO TO LINEAR ALGEBRA) (Fall)Grades 11-12, and MESA COLLEGE MATH 245 (DISCRETE MATH) (Spring) Grades 11-12. You get a completely different education if you are a top student here.

The other point is how lazy UCSD is about actually teaching the remedial class once they get admitted. Student who are in that class are often the ones who attend horrifically bad high schools in the poorest areas of the state. They never got quality instruction in math. (There was an article about a student who was enrolled in AP Calculus at Lincoln High in San Diego and because they couldn't get enough students to take the class the school dropped the calculus class two weeks before the end of the first semester. The school then enrolled all the students who were in the class into Ceramics. This seems like a crazy story but it is true! This is what the poorest students often face trying to take math.) UCSD instead of actually having a person directly teaching the class they sit the students in front of computers on a curriculum called Aleks and students have to complete work all online. If they have question they can ask the TA proctoring the class but no one is actually teaching the students. And like the post above says, many students really can't understand some TA's due to really strong accents.

UC's could make everyone take a placement exam in April /May and then tell anyone majoring STEM who doesn't pass they need to take a community college class or take an intensive math class over the summer at the UC.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am surprised so few of them signed this letter. Where are the rest? Are they happy with the current state of UC education?

You think 280 STEM professors at Berkeley isn't a lot? That's half the total STEM faculty.

It's 280 all over the UC system, not just Berkeley.

Not all professors agree with this. I don’t know why they’re recommending the SAT when the UC system was supposed to be developing its own rigorous exam designed by UC faculty.

But their own rigorous exam can only be more racist than the already watered down SAT.

[Anonymous]

Without going professor by professor, it wouldn't surprise me to see that the very few professors who are asking for this are the MAGA variety.

University of California has over 24,000 faculty. Only 280 signed onto this. This doesn't represent the vast majority of faculty viewpoints and certainly not administrative or political ones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The SAT is a racist test. There is no reason to go back to it.

Racists against mathematics?

[Anonymous]

Test optional helps wealthy of all races to not even try.

[Anonymous]

This highlights that colleges are only as good as the students they admit.