COVIDs Continuing Impact on Reading Scores

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many schools are still STILL not using a strong phonics based curriculum and either using piecemeal programs or still using old queuing/whole language programs that have been long debunked, like 20 years ago.

LCPS only started using phonics around 2023. Prior to that they were still using LLI/Fountas&Pinnell.

Phonics works for some kids, not all. Mine was a sight reader. What has also changed is that they don't teach spelling, vocabulary, grammar, or any foundation. If a kid cannot spell, they are told to sound it out or use a dictionary (hard for kids who cannot read). Scores are declining because of the bad curriculum and the refusal to catch and remediate any learning disabilities early. They play the wait and see game and tell parents to do the same, and by the time it becomes an issue its too late.

And they won’t test for learning disabilities, dyslexia, etc. early because they don’t have the budget in special education. So the schools just shuffle the kids along to everyone’s detriment. Then you suddenly get a high school sophomore reading at a 2nd grade level and everyone acts all shocked about it because the kid never made trouble and got mostly 2’s and 3’s throughout elementary and mostly B’s in middle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many schools are still STILL not using a strong phonics based curriculum and either using piecemeal programs or still using old queuing/whole language programs that have been long debunked, like 20 years ago.

LCPS only started using phonics around 2023. Prior to that they were still using LLI/Fountas&Pinnell.

Phonics works for some kids, not all. Mine was a sight reader. What has also changed is that they don't teach spelling, vocabulary, grammar, or any foundation. If a kid cannot spell, they are told to sound it out or use a dictionary (hard for kids who cannot read). Scores are declining because of the bad curriculum and the refusal to catch and remediate any learning disabilities early. They play the wait and see game and tell parents to do the same, and by the time it becomes an issue its too late.

The science says that all kids benefit from explicit phonics based instruction, which definitely includes spelling. Vocabulary and grammar are a different piece. Some kids learn to read more easily than others regardless of curriculum or lack there of (sounds like your child) but the evidence clearly shows that struggling readers need phonics and lots of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s a different take: I think we need to look at the parents.

My sister-in-law and close friend both had babies during Covid. Before Covid, I think parents realized pretty fast parenting alone was miserable and made mom friends. My SIL and friend didn’t. They were just alone.

Babies couldn’t have heard the same kind of pre-pandemic interaction. They didn’t do tummy time next to each other while their moms laughed.

We talk about the mommy wars? One way of noticing a child was delayed was by seeing other kids reach their milestones. My friend’s baby was eight months old before she texted me asking when babies started using sippy cups or straws. Then she had no idea how to get her baby to use a straw.

Mommies know how to make babies perfectly comfortable. As toddlers these babies didn’t take to other kids the way pre-Covid babies did. It was uncomfortable. One of the kids doesn’t get any screen time. But he would rather have Mommy read him a story than play blocks with a kid who might knock it down.

I think mom social behavior led to the kids’ delayed development.

I believe in science and isolation. I think these moms should have bubbled with other moms.

Uh. This isn’t the superiority you think it is. EBF babies don't take sippy cups at eight months and lots of COVID-era mothers EBF’d for antibody protection. This is a weird weird mother shaming post and I hope your “SIL” and “friend” distance themselves from your expertise…

Your argument would be better if the baby had been EBF. Formula fed baby.

DP. Even for a formula fed baby, this story doesn't matter. Sippy cups are not essential for development. Some people skip them altogether and do open cups even from a very young age because they think sippy cups actually delay certain motor skills including around swallowing. An 8 month old not using sippy cups is a non-story. Now if the anecdote was about an actually important developmental stage for motor skills or speech development, and parents not realizing kids were behind due to lack of peers, that would be compelling. But if your best example is sippy cups, who cares.

It wouldn't explain why a 2nd grader is lagging behind in reading.

[Anonymous]

It's the screens. Covid sent us tumbling down that hole, both at school and at home. And we haven't even come close to climbing out of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's the screens. Covid sent us tumbling down that hole, both at school and at home. And we haven't even come close to climbing out of it.

Follow the money and see where it goes. As long as there are huge profits in selling EdTech, and the associated lobbying, it will remain. The same reason its hard to get rid of crappy reading curriculums. Lobbying from those who profit most.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many schools are still STILL not using a strong phonics based curriculum and either using piecemeal programs or still using old queuing/whole language programs that have been long debunked, like 20 years ago.

LCPS only started using phonics around 2023. Prior to that they were still using LLI/Fountas&Pinnell.

Phonics works for some kids, not all. Mine was a sight reader. What has also changed is that they don't teach spelling, vocabulary, grammar, or any foundation. If a kid cannot spell, they are told to sound it out or use a dictionary (hard for kids who cannot read). Scores are declining because of the bad curriculum and the refusal to catch and remediate any learning disabilities early. They play the wait and see game and tell parents to do the same, and by the time it becomes an issue its too late.

And they won’t test for learning disabilities, dyslexia, etc. early because they don’t have the budget in special education. So the schools just shuffle the kids along to everyone’s detriment. Then you suddenly get a high school sophomore reading at a 2nd grade level and everyone acts all shocked about it because the kid never made trouble and got mostly 2’s and 3’s throughout elementary and mostly B’s in middle.

I know it sounds crazy on here, but parents also resist sped testing and diagnoses. Particular parents from places other than the US. I have a third grader that has been on every teacher's radar since the end of K. Every prior teacher has recommended him for testing and the parent has refused. We are still waiting to see if parents are going to refuse again this year. Parents seem terrified of sped but somehow not terrified that their almost 9 year old can't read or even comprehend stories read aloud.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am baffled by this. I have a 2nd grader. She's a terrific reader. She missed the school closures of Covid so got to have normal PK and K even. She was reading on her own by the summer before K (just sounding out words) and then got good, phonics-based reading instruction in K and 1st and it really took off. Her preschool was play based and that was great for her. She was actually in a Title 1 for PK-1st (we're in DC with universal PK so she did PK at at a public elementary) and now is at a non-T1.

My perception is that her cohort is full of strong readers. We live in a MC/UMC neighborhood. There are plenty of bookstores and libraries here. Most people are college educated and the adults read (both to kids and on their own). Literacy is definitely valued as part of the culture here. There are also kids who struggle but the schools and parents are getting them support they need for LDs and other issues.

I do think Covid had some lasting effects on this cohort of kids, because I think Covid and other forces changed our culture permanently -- we never really returned to a pre-Covid existence. But I don't see it in the academic performance. The kids I know seem fine.

Not saying the studies are wrong, it's just not reflected in my experience at all. And we aren't wealthy outliers -- no tutors, most families can't afford nannies or a SAHP, pretty standard in terms of childcare and extracurriculars for kids, schools are good but not considered the best in the area or anything. They are "good enough" schools for people at our SES level who can't afford private or to live in very expensive school boundaries.

So I don't get it, but I don't think it's just Covid. Because if it was, you'd see the effects everywhere and I don't see them here.

The reading issues are more strongly correlated with Lucy Calkins and the Whole Language crap. More became aware of reading gaps during Covid, but NAEP reading test results had been poor even before Covid.

PP just above was lucky DC received Phonics-centered instruction, because many studies have shown that is what works for all kids. (dyslexic kids benefit most from Orton-Gillingham which itself is Phonics based).

Listen to the "Sold a Story" podcast and then weep. An entire generation of teachers and students were mis-taught.

This doesn’t and sense because Lucy calkins was more popular before Covid. If that were the cause, then reading scores should have improved as more states abandoned it.

[Anonymous]

In my kids' DCPS, they are more behind on math than reading.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am baffled by this. I have a 2nd grader. She's a terrific reader. She missed the school closures of Covid so got to have normal PK and K even. She was reading on her own by the summer before K (just sounding out words) and then got good, phonics-based reading instruction in K and 1st and it really took off. Her preschool was play based and that was great for her. She was actually in a Title 1 for PK-1st (we're in DC with universal PK so she did PK at at a public elementary) and now is at a non-T1.

My perception is that her cohort is full of strong readers. We live in a MC/UMC neighborhood. There are plenty of bookstores and libraries here. Most people are college educated and the adults read (both to kids and on their own). Literacy is definitely valued as part of the culture here. There are also kids who struggle but the schools and parents are getting them support they need for LDs and other issues.

I do think Covid had some lasting effects on this cohort of kids, because I think Covid and other forces changed our culture permanently -- we never really returned to a pre-Covid existence. But I don't see it in the academic performance. The kids I know seem fine.

Not saying the studies are wrong, it's just not reflected in my experience at all. And we aren't wealthy outliers -- no tutors, most families can't afford nannies or a SAHP, pretty standard in terms of childcare and extracurriculars for kids, schools are good but not considered the best in the area or anything. They are "good enough" schools for people at our SES level who can't afford private or to live in very expensive school boundaries.

So I don't get it, but I don't think it's just Covid. Because if it was, you'd see the effects everywhere and I don't see them here.

The reading issues are more strongly correlated with Lucy Calkins and the Whole Language crap. More became aware of reading gaps during Covid, but NAEP reading test results had been poor even before Covid.

PP just above was lucky DC received Phonics-centered instruction, because many studies have shown that is what works for all kids. (dyslexic kids benefit most from Orton-Gillingham which itself is Phonics based).

Listen to the "Sold a Story" podcast and then weep. An entire generation of teachers and students were mis-taught.

This doesn’t and sense because Lucy calkins was more popular before Covid. If that were the cause, then reading scores should have improved as more states abandoned it.

Lucy Calkins/LLI/Queuing - call it whatever you like - was still widely used at the onset of Covid, even though strong data had come out against it back in 2005. GWB wanted to bag it, but then 9/11 happened and the Lucy etc. al lobby fought hard against it and it was abandoned. Reading scores went down in correlation with loss of phonics. It was not Covid. Covid just shed sunlight on it.

[Anonymous]

^^and I second the recommendation for folks to listen to Sold a Story. It explains everything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think this has to do with COVID anymore. Scores have been on a steady decline since 2012 or so. It's EdTech and schools not giving kids actual books -- textbooks and novels made from wood pulp -- anymore.

Exactly, and they don't teach grammar, spelling, vocabulary or writing skills in ES, and they stopped homework for reinforcement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think this has to do with COVID anymore. Scores have been on a steady decline since 2012 or so. It's EdTech and schools not giving kids actual books -- textbooks and novels made from wood pulp -- anymore.

Exactly, and they don't teach grammar, spelling, vocabulary or writing skills in ES, and they stopped homework for reinforcement.

Apparently homework isn't equitable. Some kids have deadbeat parents so it's not fair to them. Or something like that. We still reinforced reading and math at home though. We just did it on our own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's the screens. Covid sent us tumbling down that hole, both at school and at home. And we haven't even come close to climbing out of it.

The hole is getting bigger. Adults are in the hole, not just kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am baffled by this. I have a 2nd grader. She's a terrific reader. She missed the school closures of Covid so got to have normal PK and K even. She was reading on her own by the summer before K (just sounding out words) and then got good, phonics-based reading instruction in K and 1st and it really took off. Her preschool was play based and that was great for her. She was actually in a Title 1 for PK-1st (we're in DC with universal PK so she did PK at at a public elementary) and now is at a non-T1.

My perception is that her cohort is full of strong readers. We live in a MC/UMC neighborhood. There are plenty of bookstores and libraries here. Most people are college educated and the adults read (both to kids and on their own). Literacy is definitely valued as part of the culture here. There are also kids who struggle but the schools and parents are getting them support they need for LDs and other issues.

I do think Covid had some lasting effects on this cohort of kids, because I think Covid and other forces changed our culture permanently -- we never really returned to a pre-Covid existence. But I don't see it in the academic performance. The kids I know seem fine.

Not saying the studies are wrong, it's just not reflected in my experience at all. And we aren't wealthy outliers -- no tutors, most families can't afford nannies or a SAHP, pretty standard in terms of childcare and extracurriculars for kids, schools are good but not considered the best in the area or anything. They are "good enough" schools for people at our SES level who can't afford private or to live in very expensive school boundaries.

So I don't get it, but I don't think it's just Covid. Because if it was, you'd see the effects everywhere and I don't see them here.

The reading issues are more strongly correlated with Lucy Calkins and the Whole Language crap. More became aware of reading gaps during Covid, but NAEP reading test results had been poor even before Covid.

PP just above was lucky DC received Phonics-centered instruction, because many studies have shown that is what works for all kids. (dyslexic kids benefit most from Orton-Gillingham which itself is Phonics based).

Listen to the "Sold a Story" podcast and then weep. An entire generation of teachers and students were mis-taught.

This doesn’t and sense because Lucy calkins was more popular before Covid. If that were the cause, then reading scores should have improved as more states abandoned it.

Lucy Calkins/LLI/Queuing - call it whatever you like - was still widely used at the onset of Covid, even though strong data had come out against it back in 2005. GWB wanted to bag it, but then 9/11 happened and the Lucy etc. al lobby fought hard against it and it was abandoned. Reading scores went down in correlation with loss of phonics. It was not Covid. Covid just shed sunlight on it.

I'm in a 10/10 GS public elementary and I can confirm that we use Lucy Calkins. The reading specialist and K-2nd teachers use and suggest 3 cueing. I had DD meet with a different specialist from a different district and she 1) said DD didn't have any issues reading and was actually above grade level 2) talked about leveled readers and 3 cueing. I thanked her and went home, and immediately rolled my sleeves up and taught her how to read myself. She absolutely had issues with reading! She was guessing words rather than sounding things out phonetically. She was actually TAUGHT to guess. That's still wild to me, thinking about it 2 years later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am baffled by this. I have a 2nd grader. She's a terrific reader. She missed the school closures of Covid so got to have normal PK and K even. She was reading on her own by the summer before K (just sounding out words) and then got good, phonics-based reading instruction in K and 1st and it really took off. Her preschool was play based and that was great for her. She was actually in a Title 1 for PK-1st (we're in DC with universal PK so she did PK at at a public elementary) and now is at a non-T1.

My perception is that her cohort is full of strong readers. We live in a MC/UMC neighborhood. There are plenty of bookstores and libraries here. Most people are college educated and the adults read (both to kids and on their own). Literacy is definitely valued as part of the culture here. There are also kids who struggle but the schools and parents are getting them support they need for LDs and other issues.

I do think Covid had some lasting effects on this cohort of kids, because I think Covid and other forces changed our culture permanently -- we never really returned to a pre-Covid existence. But I don't see it in the academic performance. The kids I know seem fine.

Not saying the studies are wrong, it's just not reflected in my experience at all. And we aren't wealthy outliers -- no tutors, most families can't afford nannies or a SAHP, pretty standard in terms of childcare and extracurriculars for kids, schools are good but not considered the best in the area or anything. They are "good enough" schools for people at our SES level who can't afford private or to live in very expensive school boundaries.

So I don't get it, but I don't think it's just Covid. Because if it was, you'd see the effects everywhere and I don't see them here.

The reading issues are more strongly correlated with Lucy Calkins and the Whole Language crap. More became aware of reading gaps during Covid, but NAEP reading test results had been poor even before Covid.

PP just above was lucky DC received Phonics-centered instruction, because many studies have shown that is what works for all kids. (dyslexic kids benefit most from Orton-Gillingham which itself is Phonics based).

Listen to the "Sold a Story" podcast and then weep. An entire generation of teachers and students were mis-taught.

This doesn’t and sense because Lucy calkins was more popular before Covid. If that were the cause, then reading scores should have improved as more states abandoned it.

Lucy Calkins/LLI/Queuing - call it whatever you like - was still widely used at the onset of Covid, even though strong data had come out against it back in 2005. GWB wanted to bag it, but then 9/11 happened and the Lucy etc. al lobby fought hard against it and it was abandoned. Reading scores went down in correlation with loss of phonics. It was not Covid. Covid just shed sunlight on it.

I'm in a 10/10 GS public elementary and I can confirm that we use Lucy Calkins. The reading specialist and K-2nd teachers use and suggest 3 cueing. I had DD meet with a different specialist from a different district and she 1) said DD didn't have any issues reading and was actually above grade level 2) talked about leveled readers and 3 cueing. I thanked her and went home, and immediately rolled my sleeves up and taught her how to read myself. She absolutely had issues with reading! She was guessing words rather than sounding things out phonetically. She was actually TAUGHT to guess. That's still wild to me, thinking about it 2 years later.

Yup. My kids are the lucky ones who learned in spite of LLI. They did struggle and I helped them at home (without a formal program, but did teach them to sound out words) and thankfully that was enough for them. I feel so terrible for the kids who are now in MS/HS or older who could be strong readers and just never received the right instruction. Their families trusted the school and the school let them down.