I don't understand asking for prayer. Why does God need prayer?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If God is all knowing and merciful , why does he allow bad things to happen to good people? And why would we pray to God if he allowed/caused the bad thing to happen in the first place?

Traditional Christian theology would not share the grammar of your question. We would say there are no good people. All people are inherently wicked. God saves those who trust in him only because they have been declared righteous by the death of Christ.

Not PP, but you are talking about two different things. One is salvation and one is relief from suffering. People who trust in him still suffer bad things.

PP. Right, important distinction.

[Anonymous]

I am the PP. I was raised devout Catholic. I understand original sin and free will. But, for example, why would God allow anyone to develop cancer? He thinks they’re bad and allows it to happen? So he’s punitive? But I thought He wasn’t punitive…

I understand the idea of faith and none of God works if you don’t have faith. I just don’t understand why anyone would have faith in something so illogical. “Praying” to a God that is supposed to be forgiving and merciful when something is happening seems so in vain and ridiculous. So what, if He doesn’t Listen does that mean you’re on the bad list?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rationalistic and mechanistic explanations will fail. The bottom line is that we are commanded to pray and we do so because it is fitting (to God's glory) and obedient, even if it doesn't get us "what we want". As Christ prayed to the Father, after making his request: "Nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done". And as Job said, "Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face."

You are right that he knows all things and therefore has no need of our prayers. Yet he delights in our prayers and it is fitting to his glory that he receives them.

Well, with all due respect, there is no way you can possibly know what God delights in. In the OT he delighted in burnt offerings, but that kinda fell by the wayside as time went on and verbal prayers seem to have taken their place. I seriously question if God ever really wanted burnt offerings.

So there's no way I can know but there is a way you can know? I thought we were more or less talking within an Abrahamic religions framework here. And my reference to Christ made Christian presuppositions self-evident. If you want the conversation to be more of a dope-smoking "like, how do we even know we're not, like, in a matrix, man" then you've lost me.

Christian teaching is not that burnt offerings "fell by the wayside" but that burnt offerings were Old Testament sacrifice typology that was pointing to the final sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Obviously Jews and Muslims will disagree with this based on their traditions, but I'm speaking from mine.

Prayers are just the verbal equivalent of burnt offerings. Intended to find favor with God for one reason or another.

No. Prayers are a way to get to know God. And to put your thoughts in order and meditate. CS Lewis writes about this if you’re interested, which you aren’t.

Most people pray to ask God for something. Maybe they didn't read C.S. Lewis

No. As an atheist, you wouldn't know what people pray for, so it's a little funny that you're trying to tell us how we pray.

Mostly it's to review our day, ask forgiveness, ask for help to do the right thing. Here's the Lord's Prayer, which is how Jesus taught Christians to pray.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.
Amen

Other faiths will have different takes. I know Muslims say there's no God but Allah, although maybe a Muslim can chime in for more.

So, the prayer is primarily to ask for something?

Why can't you at least admit that it's not about praying for a basketball victory?

If you're outraged that someone is asking for forgiveness, or not to be led into temptation, then you've got bigger issues. This is why it's hard to take DCUM's atheists seriously. Or to respect them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rationalistic and mechanistic explanations will fail. The bottom line is that we are commanded to pray and we do so because it is fitting (to God's glory) and obedient, even if it doesn't get us "what we want". As Christ prayed to the Father, after making his request: "Nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done". And as Job said, "Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face."

You are right that he knows all things and therefore has no need of our prayers. Yet he delights in our prayers and it is fitting to his glory that he receives them.

Well, with all due respect, there is no way you can possibly know what God delights in. In the OT he delighted in burnt offerings, but that kinda fell by the wayside as time went on and verbal prayers seem to have taken their place. I seriously question if God ever really wanted burnt offerings.

So there's no way I can know but there is a way you can know? I thought we were more or less talking within an Abrahamic religions framework here. And my reference to Christ made Christian presuppositions self-evident. If you want the conversation to be more of a dope-smoking "like, how do we even know we're not, like, in a matrix, man" then you've lost me.

Christian teaching is not that burnt offerings "fell by the wayside" but that burnt offerings were Old Testament sacrifice typology that was pointing to the final sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Obviously Jews and Muslims will disagree with this based on their traditions, but I'm speaking from mine.

Prayers are just the verbal equivalent of burnt offerings. Intended to find favor with God for one reason or another.

No. Prayers are a way to get to know God. And to put your thoughts in order and meditate. CS Lewis writes about this if you’re interested, which you aren’t.

Most people pray to ask God for something. Maybe they didn't read C.S. Lewis

No. As an atheist, you wouldn't know what people pray for, so it's a little funny that you're trying to tell us how we pray.

Mostly it's to review our day, ask forgiveness, ask for help to do the right thing. Here's the Lord's Prayer, which is how Jesus taught Christians to pray.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.
Amen

Other faiths will have different takes. I know Muslims say there's no God but Allah, although maybe a Muslim can chime in for more.

So, the prayer is primarily to ask for something?

Why can't you at least admit that it's not about praying for a basketball victory?

If you're outraged that someone is asking for forgiveness, or not to be led into temptation, then you've got bigger issues. This is why it's hard to take DCUM's atheists seriously. Or to respect them.

?? "Give us this day our daily Bread"? What, you can't go to the store and buy it for yourself?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the PP. I was raised devout Catholic. I understand original sin and free will. But, for example, why would God allow anyone to develop cancer? He thinks they’re bad and allows it to happen? So he’s punitive? But I thought He wasn’t punitive…

I understand the idea of faith and none of God works if you don’t have faith. I just don’t understand why anyone would have faith in something so illogical. “Praying” to a God that is supposed to be forgiving and merciful when something is happening seems so in vain and ridiculous. So what, if He doesn’t Listen does that mean you’re on the bad list?

If you're as educated as you claim, then you'll know that cancer isn't "punishment" for not being a perfect human being. Frankly, that's a 10-year-old's conception of suffering, and perhaps you didn't attend church past fifth grade.

As pp said, none of us are perfect human beings. Also, there's tons of Christian (and Jewish, and Muslim, and no doubt Buddhist and other religion) theology that say that every person dies. Every person suffers to some extent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rationalistic and mechanistic explanations will fail. The bottom line is that we are commanded to pray and we do so because it is fitting (to God's glory) and obedient, even if it doesn't get us "what we want". As Christ prayed to the Father, after making his request: "Nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done". And as Job said, "Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face."

You are right that he knows all things and therefore has no need of our prayers. Yet he delights in our prayers and it is fitting to his glory that he receives them.

Well, with all due respect, there is no way you can possibly know what God delights in. In the OT he delighted in burnt offerings, but that kinda fell by the wayside as time went on and verbal prayers seem to have taken their place. I seriously question if God ever really wanted burnt offerings.

So there's no way I can know but there is a way you can know? I thought we were more or less talking within an Abrahamic religions framework here. And my reference to Christ made Christian presuppositions self-evident. If you want the conversation to be more of a dope-smoking "like, how do we even know we're not, like, in a matrix, man" then you've lost me.

Christian teaching is not that burnt offerings "fell by the wayside" but that burnt offerings were Old Testament sacrifice typology that was pointing to the final sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Obviously Jews and Muslims will disagree with this based on their traditions, but I'm speaking from mine.

Prayers are just the verbal equivalent of burnt offerings. Intended to find favor with God for one reason or another.

No. Prayers are a way to get to know God. And to put your thoughts in order and meditate. CS Lewis writes about this if you’re interested, which you aren’t.

Most people pray to ask God for something. Maybe they didn't read C.S. Lewis

No. As an atheist, you wouldn't know what people pray for, so it's a little funny that you're trying to tell us how we pray.

Mostly it's to review our day, ask forgiveness, ask for help to do the right thing. Here's the Lord's Prayer, which is how Jesus taught Christians to pray.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.
Amen

Other faiths will have different takes. I know Muslims say there's no God but Allah, although maybe a Muslim can chime in for more.

So, the prayer is primarily to ask for something?

Why can't you at least admit that it's not about praying for a basketball victory?

If you're outraged that someone is asking for forgiveness, or not to be led into temptation, then you've got bigger issues. This is why it's hard to take DCUM's atheists seriously. Or to respect them.

Um, I admit it is not just about praying for a basketball victory. (And I never said it was. Maybe somebody else did.). I am in no way outraged.

I also posted earlier that I am a non-believer who wishes they could believe.

Now, can you admit that a good portion of prayer IS asking for something? Can we have a civil conversation in good faith?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rationalistic and mechanistic explanations will fail. The bottom line is that we are commanded to pray and we do so because it is fitting (to God's glory) and obedient, even if it doesn't get us "what we want". As Christ prayed to the Father, after making his request: "Nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done". And as Job said, "Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face."

You are right that he knows all things and therefore has no need of our prayers. Yet he delights in our prayers and it is fitting to his glory that he receives them.

Well, with all due respect, there is no way you can possibly know what God delights in. In the OT he delighted in burnt offerings, but that kinda fell by the wayside as time went on and verbal prayers seem to have taken their place. I seriously question if God ever really wanted burnt offerings.

So there's no way I can know but there is a way you can know? I thought we were more or less talking within an Abrahamic religions framework here. And my reference to Christ made Christian presuppositions self-evident. If you want the conversation to be more of a dope-smoking "like, how do we even know we're not, like, in a matrix, man" then you've lost me.

Christian teaching is not that burnt offerings "fell by the wayside" but that burnt offerings were Old Testament sacrifice typology that was pointing to the final sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Obviously Jews and Muslims will disagree with this based on their traditions, but I'm speaking from mine.

Prayers are just the verbal equivalent of burnt offerings. Intended to find favor with God for one reason or another.

No. Prayers are a way to get to know God. And to put your thoughts in order and meditate. CS Lewis writes about this if you’re interested, which you aren’t.

Most people pray to ask God for something. Maybe they didn't read C.S. Lewis

No. As an atheist, you wouldn't know what people pray for, so it's a little funny that you're trying to tell us how we pray.

Mostly it's to review our day, ask forgiveness, ask for help to do the right thing. Here's the Lord's Prayer, which is how Jesus taught Christians to pray.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.
Amen

Other faiths will have different takes. I know Muslims say there's no God but Allah, although maybe a Muslim can chime in for more.

So, the prayer is primarily to ask for something?

Why can't you at least admit that it's not about praying for a basketball victory?

If you're outraged that someone is asking for forgiveness, or not to be led into temptation, then you've got bigger issues. This is why it's hard to take DCUM's atheists seriously. Or to respect them.

?? "Give us this day our daily Bread"? What, you can't go to the store and buy it for yourself?

You know what Jesus meant. Don't play dumb. It's so hard to respect atheists when you pull this cr@p.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rationalistic and mechanistic explanations will fail. The bottom line is that we are commanded to pray and we do so because it is fitting (to God's glory) and obedient, even if it doesn't get us "what we want". As Christ prayed to the Father, after making his request: "Nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done". And as Job said, "Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face."

You are right that he knows all things and therefore has no need of our prayers. Yet he delights in our prayers and it is fitting to his glory that he receives them.

Well, with all due respect, there is no way you can possibly know what God delights in. In the OT he delighted in burnt offerings, but that kinda fell by the wayside as time went on and verbal prayers seem to have taken their place. I seriously question if God ever really wanted burnt offerings.

So there's no way I can know but there is a way you can know? I thought we were more or less talking within an Abrahamic religions framework here. And my reference to Christ made Christian presuppositions self-evident. If you want the conversation to be more of a dope-smoking "like, how do we even know we're not, like, in a matrix, man" then you've lost me.

Christian teaching is not that burnt offerings "fell by the wayside" but that burnt offerings were Old Testament sacrifice typology that was pointing to the final sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Obviously Jews and Muslims will disagree with this based on their traditions, but I'm speaking from mine.

Prayers are just the verbal equivalent of burnt offerings. Intended to find favor with God for one reason or another.

No. Prayers are a way to get to know God. And to put your thoughts in order and meditate. CS Lewis writes about this if you’re interested, which you aren’t.

Most people pray to ask God for something. Maybe they didn't read C.S. Lewis

No. As an atheist, you wouldn't know what people pray for, so it's a little funny that you're trying to tell us how we pray.

Mostly it's to review our day, ask forgiveness, ask for help to do the right thing. Here's the Lord's Prayer, which is how Jesus taught Christians to pray.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.
Amen

Other faiths will have different takes. I know Muslims say there's no God but Allah, although maybe a Muslim can chime in for more.

So, the prayer is primarily to ask for something?

Why can't you at least admit that it's not about praying for a basketball victory?

If you're outraged that someone is asking for forgiveness, or not to be led into temptation, then you've got bigger issues. This is why it's hard to take DCUM's atheists seriously. Or to respect them.

Um, I admit it is not just about praying for a basketball victory. (And I never said it was. Maybe somebody else did.). I am in no way outraged.

I also posted earlier that I am a non-believer who wishes they could believe.

Now, can you admit that a good portion of prayer IS asking for something? Can we have a civil conversation in good faith?

The only "bad faith" I see is on the atheist side with the dumb jokes about praying for basketball victories (yes, one of you did say that), buying indulgences, and Jesus wanting free bread.

I struggle to understand why you have a problem with asking for forgiveness. Or asking to avoid temptation. Only God can grant these, so yes, humans ask for them. What exactly is your problem with these asks? These in no way fit the picture you/your co-atheists are painting here, which is that prayer is all about asking for goodies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the PP. I was raised devout Catholic. I understand original sin and free will. But, for example, why would God allow anyone to develop cancer? He thinks they’re bad and allows it to happen? So he’s punitive? But I thought He wasn’t punitive…

I understand the idea of faith and none of God works if you don’t have faith. I just don’t understand why anyone would have faith in something so illogical. “Praying” to a God that is supposed to be forgiving and merciful when something is happening seems so in vain and ridiculous. So what, if He doesn’t Listen does that mean you’re on the bad list?

PP and fellow Christian here. I think it's important to remember that the death rate is 100% and that God (as the catechism says) ordains all things that come to pass. He is not responsible for evil, but permits every evil and painful thing that has ever happened. What is clear in the Bible is that this paradox *exists*. Scripture does not resolve this paradox, but also is not unaware of it. It's not as if the writers of Scripture were like "whoops, these two ideas don't make sense together". The paradox is baked in and high-handed questioning of it is met with responses like "Where were you when I created the world?!" (God to Job) and "Who are you to talk back to God, isn't it his right to do as he wills?" (Paul to a hypothetical questioner in Romans.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rationalistic and mechanistic explanations will fail. The bottom line is that we are commanded to pray and we do so because it is fitting (to God's glory) and obedient, even if it doesn't get us "what we want". As Christ prayed to the Father, after making his request: "Nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done". And as Job said, "Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face."

You are right that he knows all things and therefore has no need of our prayers. Yet he delights in our prayers and it is fitting to his glory that he receives them.

Well, with all due respect, there is no way you can possibly know what God delights in. In the OT he delighted in burnt offerings, but that kinda fell by the wayside as time went on and verbal prayers seem to have taken their place. I seriously question if God ever really wanted burnt offerings.

So there's no way I can know but there is a way you can know? I thought we were more or less talking within an Abrahamic religions framework here. And my reference to Christ made Christian presuppositions self-evident. If you want the conversation to be more of a dope-smoking "like, how do we even know we're not, like, in a matrix, man" then you've lost me.

Christian teaching is not that burnt offerings "fell by the wayside" but that burnt offerings were Old Testament sacrifice typology that was pointing to the final sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Obviously Jews and Muslims will disagree with this based on their traditions, but I'm speaking from mine.

Prayers are just the verbal equivalent of burnt offerings. Intended to find favor with God for one reason or another.

No. Prayers are a way to get to know God. And to put your thoughts in order and meditate. CS Lewis writes about this if you’re interested, which you aren’t.

Most people pray to ask God for something. Maybe they didn't read C.S. Lewis

No. As an atheist, you wouldn't know what people pray for, so it's a little funny that you're trying to tell us how we pray.

Mostly it's to review our day, ask forgiveness, ask for help to do the right thing. Here's the Lord's Prayer, which is how Jesus taught Christians to pray.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.
Amen

Other faiths will have different takes. I know Muslims say there's no God but Allah, although maybe a Muslim can chime in for more.

So, the prayer is primarily to ask for something?

Why can't you at least admit that it's not about praying for a basketball victory?

If you're outraged that someone is asking for forgiveness, or not to be led into temptation, then you've got bigger issues. This is why it's hard to take DCUM's atheists seriously. Or to respect them.

?? "Give us this day our daily Bread"? What, you can't go to the store and buy it for yourself?

You know what Jesus meant. Don't play dumb. It's so hard to respect atheists when you pull this cr@p.

By it's plain words the prayer is asking for something. Give us this day our daily bread. Like "We can't figure out how to make it ourselves with out you giving it to us." Most prayers are like this - asking God to do something for you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rationalistic and mechanistic explanations will fail. The bottom line is that we are commanded to pray and we do so because it is fitting (to God's glory) and obedient, even if it doesn't get us "what we want". As Christ prayed to the Father, after making his request: "Nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done". And as Job said, "Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face."

You are right that he knows all things and therefore has no need of our prayers. Yet he delights in our prayers and it is fitting to his glory that he receives them.

Well, with all due respect, there is no way you can possibly know what God delights in. In the OT he delighted in burnt offerings, but that kinda fell by the wayside as time went on and verbal prayers seem to have taken their place. I seriously question if God ever really wanted burnt offerings.

So there's no way I can know but there is a way you can know? I thought we were more or less talking within an Abrahamic religions framework here. And my reference to Christ made Christian presuppositions self-evident. If you want the conversation to be more of a dope-smoking "like, how do we even know we're not, like, in a matrix, man" then you've lost me.

Christian teaching is not that burnt offerings "fell by the wayside" but that burnt offerings were Old Testament sacrifice typology that was pointing to the final sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Obviously Jews and Muslims will disagree with this based on their traditions, but I'm speaking from mine.

Prayers are just the verbal equivalent of burnt offerings. Intended to find favor with God for one reason or another.

No. Prayers are a way to get to know God. And to put your thoughts in order and meditate. CS Lewis writes about this if you’re interested, which you aren’t.

Most people pray to ask God for something. Maybe they didn't read C.S. Lewis

No. As an atheist, you wouldn't know what people pray for, so it's a little funny that you're trying to tell us how we pray.

Mostly it's to review our day, ask forgiveness, ask for help to do the right thing. Here's the Lord's Prayer, which is how Jesus taught Christians to pray.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.
Amen

Other faiths will have different takes. I know Muslims say there's no God but Allah, although maybe a Muslim can chime in for more.

So, the prayer is primarily to ask for something?

Why can't you at least admit that it's not about praying for a basketball victory?

If you're outraged that someone is asking for forgiveness, or not to be led into temptation, then you've got bigger issues. This is why it's hard to take DCUM's atheists seriously. Or to respect them.

Um, I admit it is not just about praying for a basketball victory. (And I never said it was. Maybe somebody else did.). I am in no way outraged.

I also posted earlier that I am a non-believer who wishes they could believe.

Now, can you admit that a good portion of prayer IS asking for something? Can we have a civil conversation in good faith?

The only "bad faith" I see is on the atheist side with the dumb jokes about praying for basketball victories (yes, one of you did say that), buying indulgences, and Jesus wanting free bread.

I struggle to understand why you have a problem with asking for forgiveness. Or asking to avoid temptation. Only God can grant these, so yes, humans ask for them. What exactly is your problem with these asks? These in no way fit the picture you/your co-atheists are painting here, which is that prayer is all about asking for goodies.

Yes there is an atheist on this thread that I do not associate myself with. It would be a mistake to assume all non-believers are the same.

Let’s set aside the “goodies” ask and even the forgiveness ask. The asks in the Lord’s Prayer for “daily bread” and even deliverance from evil are asks to avoid or ease suffering. And outside of the Lord’s Prayer, it is common to ask for relief from suffering. That is the part I can not reconcile and that prevents me from believing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rationalistic and mechanistic explanations will fail. The bottom line is that we are commanded to pray and we do so because it is fitting (to God's glory) and obedient, even if it doesn't get us "what we want". As Christ prayed to the Father, after making his request: "Nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done". And as Job said, "Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face."

You are right that he knows all things and therefore has no need of our prayers. Yet he delights in our prayers and it is fitting to his glory that he receives them.

Well, with all due respect, there is no way you can possibly know what God delights in. In the OT he delighted in burnt offerings, but that kinda fell by the wayside as time went on and verbal prayers seem to have taken their place. I seriously question if God ever really wanted burnt offerings.

So there's no way I can know but there is a way you can know? I thought we were more or less talking within an Abrahamic religions framework here. And my reference to Christ made Christian presuppositions self-evident. If you want the conversation to be more of a dope-smoking "like, how do we even know we're not, like, in a matrix, man" then you've lost me.

Christian teaching is not that burnt offerings "fell by the wayside" but that burnt offerings were Old Testament sacrifice typology that was pointing to the final sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Obviously Jews and Muslims will disagree with this based on their traditions, but I'm speaking from mine.

Prayers are just the verbal equivalent of burnt offerings. Intended to find favor with God for one reason or another.

No. Prayers are a way to get to know God. And to put your thoughts in order and meditate. CS Lewis writes about this if you’re interested, which you aren’t.

Most people pray to ask God for something. Maybe they didn't read C.S. Lewis

No. As an atheist, you wouldn't know what people pray for, so it's a little funny that you're trying to tell us how we pray.

Mostly it's to review our day, ask forgiveness, ask for help to do the right thing. Here's the Lord's Prayer, which is how Jesus taught Christians to pray.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.
Amen

Other faiths will have different takes. I know Muslims say there's no God but Allah, although maybe a Muslim can chime in for more.

So, the prayer is primarily to ask for something?

Why can't you at least admit that it's not about praying for a basketball victory?

If you're outraged that someone is asking for forgiveness, or not to be led into temptation, then you've got bigger issues. This is why it's hard to take DCUM's atheists seriously. Or to respect them.

Um, I admit it is not just about praying for a basketball victory. (And I never said it was. Maybe somebody else did.). I am in no way outraged.

I also posted earlier that I am a non-believer who wishes they could believe.

Now, can you admit that a good portion of prayer IS asking for something? Can we have a civil conversation in good faith?

The only "bad faith" I see is on the atheist side with the dumb jokes about praying for basketball victories (yes, one of you did say that), buying indulgences, and Jesus wanting free bread.

I struggle to understand why you have a problem with asking for forgiveness. Or asking to avoid temptation. Only God can grant these, so yes, humans ask for them. What exactly is your problem with these asks? These in no way fit the picture you/your co-atheists are painting here, which is that prayer is all about asking for goodies.

Yes there is an atheist on this thread that I do not associate myself with. It would be a mistake to assume all non-believers are the same.

Let’s set aside the “goodies” ask and even the forgiveness ask. The asks in the Lord’s Prayer for “daily bread” and even deliverance from evil are asks to avoid or ease suffering. And outside of the Lord’s Prayer, it is common to ask for relief from suffering. That is the part I can not reconcile and that prevents me from believing.

Christian here, and I agree with you insofar as prayers certainly do ask for things, even things which we perceive that we should get by our own actions. Like our daily bread. Asking for our daily bread is an acknowledgment (and legitimate request) that all good things come directly by his hand ("every good and perfect gift" as James says). If someone has a high view of God's sovereignty, like I do, they believe that every breath they take, every heartbeat, every blink is brought about by God's proximate action. There is not some other life force by which I can take a breath that is "notGod".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rationalistic and mechanistic explanations will fail. The bottom line is that we are commanded to pray and we do so because it is fitting (to God's glory) and obedient, even if it doesn't get us "what we want". As Christ prayed to the Father, after making his request: "Nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done". And as Job said, "Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face."

You are right that he knows all things and therefore has no need of our prayers. Yet he delights in our prayers and it is fitting to his glory that he receives them.

Well, with all due respect, there is no way you can possibly know what God delights in. In the OT he delighted in burnt offerings, but that kinda fell by the wayside as time went on and verbal prayers seem to have taken their place. I seriously question if God ever really wanted burnt offerings.

So there's no way I can know but there is a way you can know? I thought we were more or less talking within an Abrahamic religions framework here. And my reference to Christ made Christian presuppositions self-evident. If you want the conversation to be more of a dope-smoking "like, how do we even know we're not, like, in a matrix, man" then you've lost me.

Christian teaching is not that burnt offerings "fell by the wayside" but that burnt offerings were Old Testament sacrifice typology that was pointing to the final sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Obviously Jews and Muslims will disagree with this based on their traditions, but I'm speaking from mine.

Prayers are just the verbal equivalent of burnt offerings. Intended to find favor with God for one reason or another.

No. Prayers are a way to get to know God. And to put your thoughts in order and meditate. CS Lewis writes about this if you’re interested, which you aren’t.

Most people pray to ask God for something. Maybe they didn't read C.S. Lewis

No. As an atheist, you wouldn't know what people pray for, so it's a little funny that you're trying to tell us how we pray.

Mostly it's to review our day, ask forgiveness, ask for help to do the right thing. Here's the Lord's Prayer, which is how Jesus taught Christians to pray.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.
Amen

Other faiths will have different takes. I know Muslims say there's no God but Allah, although maybe a Muslim can chime in for more.

So, the prayer is primarily to ask for something?

Why can't you at least admit that it's not about praying for a basketball victory?

If you're outraged that someone is asking for forgiveness, or not to be led into temptation, then you've got bigger issues. This is why it's hard to take DCUM's atheists seriously. Or to respect them.

Um, I admit it is not just about praying for a basketball victory. (And I never said it was. Maybe somebody else did.). I am in no way outraged.

I also posted earlier that I am a non-believer who wishes they could believe.

Now, can you admit that a good portion of prayer IS asking for something? Can we have a civil conversation in good faith?

The only "bad faith" I see is on the atheist side with the dumb jokes about praying for basketball victories (yes, one of you did say that), buying indulgences, and Jesus wanting free bread.

I struggle to understand why you have a problem with asking for forgiveness. Or asking to avoid temptation. Only God can grant these, so yes, humans ask for them. What exactly is your problem with these asks? These in no way fit the picture you/your co-atheists are painting here, which is that prayer is all about asking for goodies.

Yes there is an atheist on this thread that I do not associate myself with. It would be a mistake to assume all non-believers are the same.

Let’s set aside the “goodies” ask and even the forgiveness ask. The asks in the Lord’s Prayer for “daily bread” and even deliverance from evil are asks to avoid or ease suffering. And outside of the Lord’s Prayer, it is common to ask for relief from suffering. That is the part I can not reconcile and that prevents me from believing.

Christian here, and I agree with you insofar as prayers certainly do ask for things, even things which we perceive that we should get by our own actions. Like our daily bread. Asking for our daily bread is an acknowledgment (and legitimate request) that all good things come directly by his hand ("every good and perfect gift" as James says). If someone has a high view of God's sovereignty, like I do, they believe that every breath they take, every heartbeat, every blink is brought about by God's proximate action. There is not some other life force by which I can take a breath that is "notGod".

PP here. Thank you, sincerely.

Can I ask whether you believe that you get more or less of these gifts from god depending on whether or not you pray for them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rationalistic and mechanistic explanations will fail. The bottom line is that we are commanded to pray and we do so because it is fitting (to God's glory) and obedient, even if it doesn't get us "what we want". As Christ prayed to the Father, after making his request: "Nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done". And as Job said, "Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face."

You are right that he knows all things and therefore has no need of our prayers. Yet he delights in our prayers and it is fitting to his glory that he receives them.

Well, with all due respect, there is no way you can possibly know what God delights in. In the OT he delighted in burnt offerings, but that kinda fell by the wayside as time went on and verbal prayers seem to have taken their place. I seriously question if God ever really wanted burnt offerings.

So there's no way I can know but there is a way you can know? I thought we were more or less talking within an Abrahamic religions framework here. And my reference to Christ made Christian presuppositions self-evident. If you want the conversation to be more of a dope-smoking "like, how do we even know we're not, like, in a matrix, man" then you've lost me.

Christian teaching is not that burnt offerings "fell by the wayside" but that burnt offerings were Old Testament sacrifice typology that was pointing to the final sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Obviously Jews and Muslims will disagree with this based on their traditions, but I'm speaking from mine.

Prayers are just the verbal equivalent of burnt offerings. Intended to find favor with God for one reason or another.

No. Prayers are a way to get to know God. And to put your thoughts in order and meditate. CS Lewis writes about this if you’re interested, which you aren’t.

Most people pray to ask God for something. Maybe they didn't read C.S. Lewis

No. As an atheist, you wouldn't know what people pray for, so it's a little funny that you're trying to tell us how we pray.

Mostly it's to review our day, ask forgiveness, ask for help to do the right thing. Here's the Lord's Prayer, which is how Jesus taught Christians to pray.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.
Amen

Other faiths will have different takes. I know Muslims say there's no God but Allah, although maybe a Muslim can chime in for more.

So, the prayer is primarily to ask for something?

Why can't you at least admit that it's not about praying for a basketball victory?

If you're outraged that someone is asking for forgiveness, or not to be led into temptation, then you've got bigger issues. This is why it's hard to take DCUM's atheists seriously. Or to respect them.

?? "Give us this day our daily Bread"? What, you can't go to the store and buy it for yourself?

You know what Jesus meant. Don't play dumb. It's so hard to respect atheists when you pull this cr@p.

By it's plain words the prayer is asking for something. Give us this day our daily bread. Like "We can't figure out how to make it ourselves with out you giving it to us." Most prayers are like this - asking God to do something for you

Stop trolling. Jesus wasn't telling us all to quit our jobs and beg on the street corners. You should read it as "help me eat today, nothing fancy, but sustenance," and for most of us that involves a job, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rationalistic and mechanistic explanations will fail. The bottom line is that we are commanded to pray and we do so because it is fitting (to God's glory) and obedient, even if it doesn't get us "what we want". As Christ prayed to the Father, after making his request: "Nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done". And as Job said, "Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face."

You are right that he knows all things and therefore has no need of our prayers. Yet he delights in our prayers and it is fitting to his glory that he receives them.

Well, with all due respect, there is no way you can possibly know what God delights in. In the OT he delighted in burnt offerings, but that kinda fell by the wayside as time went on and verbal prayers seem to have taken their place. I seriously question if God ever really wanted burnt offerings.

So there's no way I can know but there is a way you can know? I thought we were more or less talking within an Abrahamic religions framework here. And my reference to Christ made Christian presuppositions self-evident. If you want the conversation to be more of a dope-smoking "like, how do we even know we're not, like, in a matrix, man" then you've lost me.

Christian teaching is not that burnt offerings "fell by the wayside" but that burnt offerings were Old Testament sacrifice typology that was pointing to the final sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Obviously Jews and Muslims will disagree with this based on their traditions, but I'm speaking from mine.

Prayers are just the verbal equivalent of burnt offerings. Intended to find favor with God for one reason or another.

No. Prayers are a way to get to know God. And to put your thoughts in order and meditate. CS Lewis writes about this if you’re interested, which you aren’t.

Most people pray to ask God for something. Maybe they didn't read C.S. Lewis

No. As an atheist, you wouldn't know what people pray for, so it's a little funny that you're trying to tell us how we pray.

Mostly it's to review our day, ask forgiveness, ask for help to do the right thing. Here's the Lord's Prayer, which is how Jesus taught Christians to pray.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.
Amen

Other faiths will have different takes. I know Muslims say there's no God but Allah, although maybe a Muslim can chime in for more.

So, the prayer is primarily to ask for something?

Why can't you at least admit that it's not about praying for a basketball victory?

If you're outraged that someone is asking for forgiveness, or not to be led into temptation, then you've got bigger issues. This is why it's hard to take DCUM's atheists seriously. Or to respect them.

Um, I admit it is not just about praying for a basketball victory. (And I never said it was. Maybe somebody else did.). I am in no way outraged.

I also posted earlier that I am a non-believer who wishes they could believe.

Now, can you admit that a good portion of prayer IS asking for something? Can we have a civil conversation in good faith?

The only "bad faith" I see is on the atheist side with the dumb jokes about praying for basketball victories (yes, one of you did say that), buying indulgences, and Jesus wanting free bread.

I struggle to understand why you have a problem with asking for forgiveness. Or asking to avoid temptation. Only God can grant these, so yes, humans ask for them. What exactly is your problem with these asks? These in no way fit the picture you/your co-atheists are painting here, which is that prayer is all about asking for goodies.

Yes there is an atheist on this thread that I do not associate myself with. It would be a mistake to assume all non-believers are the same.

Let’s set aside the “goodies” ask and even the forgiveness ask. The asks in the Lord’s Prayer for “daily bread” and even deliverance from evil are asks to avoid or ease suffering. And outside of the Lord’s Prayer, it is common to ask for relief from suffering. That is the part I can not reconcile and that prevents me from believing.

Christian here, and I agree with you insofar as prayers certainly do ask for things, even things which we perceive that we should get by our own actions. Like our daily bread. Asking for our daily bread is an acknowledgment (and legitimate request) that all good things come directly by his hand ("every good and perfect gift" as James says). If someone has a high view of God's sovereignty, like I do, they believe that every breath they take, every heartbeat, every blink is brought about by God's proximate action. There is not some other life force by which I can take a breath that is "notGod".

PP here. Thank you, sincerely.

Can I ask whether you believe that you get more or less of these gifts from god depending on whether or not you pray for them?

That is a very difficult question! Paul writes in Ephesians that God is "able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think," so in my better moments I trust in that principle. And I trust that God desires far better for me than I can even imagine to desire for myself.

But to answer more directly: Christ himself, uniquely perfect, was viciously beaten and murdered. The apostles (with the exception of the exiled John) all met violent ends, often after a lifetime of beatings and imprisonment. And these were the closest to Christ. And in that context Paul wrote that "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us." So I do hope and pray for God's gifts now, but it seems our greatest saints endured much suffering in this life, placing their hope in the life to come.