a final warning to high school students in the college admissions game

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Ivies and other selective colleges have always had challenging academics, but not the grind, cutthroat mentality more typically found today. The grind factor is new and has become more typical over the past 15 years. I think this reflects the increase in STEM majors and students from families/cultures that accept/promote grind culture.

I think you are exactly right.

Princeton has been rigorous for many years, but in the past I think more of the kids who were there really wanted to be there, and overall had a better experience. Now there seem to be more kids who are there because it's what their parents want for them, and then they gravitate towards grueling STEM majors like CS and EE because they think it's the only path to a high-paying job and a successful life.

I graduated decades ago. I have no doubt that the vast majority of my classmates had a good experience and that even some of the students who found it exhausting at the time now look back on it more fondly. I looked at our senior yearbook and found a few quotes from students that were the versions of the You Tube video, but they were in the minority:

"Princeton, to say the least, has been a trying experience for me. I think it was just the case of attempting to place a square peg in a round hole or vice versa. Princeton was simply not for me."

"Princeton is like a mop. You come here to soak up everything it has to offer and leave totally wrung out, only to realize the job can never be finished."

"On an individual level, the people I have met at Princeton are as nice as any I've come across anywhere. But on the whole, since coming to Princeton, I now know what it feels like to hate myself, to feel vastly inferior to anyone else I encounter, and simply to be unhappy. These lessons will be hard to unlearn, but I'm going to try."

Of course there were then hundreds of quotes from graduates looking back on all the fun they had, or all they learned, or what other famous quotes inspired them, but these quotes seem more poignant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anybody want to summarize what he said?

You have to watch it because he’s quite genuine and that doesn’t translate.

But basically- Princeton is a a really unhappy unhealthy place. People are manipulative, extremely competitive, and stressed. Do your research before you choose you college. Don’t just listen to the tour guides. Watch how students interact. Then he gave really good advice on choosing friends wisely!

Sounds blah big listening to it gives it credibility

[Anonymous]

Everyone has to research for themselves whether or not these complaints are valid for them, but our research and many threads on DCUM suggest that these school cultures have changed toward the grind and cutthroat. Most recently, check out the Northwestern and Johns Hopkins threads in this forum. Alumni now don’t even recognize their own school!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anybody want to summarize what he said?

You have to watch it because he’s quite genuine and that doesn’t translate.

But basically- Princeton is a a really unhappy unhealthy place. People are manipulative, extremely competitive, and stressed. Do your research before you choose you college. Don’t just listen to the tour guides. Watch how students interact. Then he gave really good advice on choosing friends wisely!

Sounds blah big listening to it gives it credibility

Oh, and Brown and Penn are also weird and nasty, but he thinks Duke is fun.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Ivies and other selective colleges have always had challenging academics, but not the grind, cutthroat mentality more typically found today. The grind factor is new and has become more typical over the past 15 years. I think this reflects the increase in STEM majors and students from families/cultures that accept/promote grind culture.

I think you are exactly right.

Princeton has been rigorous for many years, but in the past I think more of the kids who were there really wanted to be there, and overall had a better experience. Now there seem to be more kids who are there because it's what their parents want for them, and then they gravitate towards grueling STEM majors like CS and EE because they think it's the only path to a high-paying job and a successful life.

I graduated decades ago. I have no doubt that the vast majority of my classmates had a good experience and that even some of the students who found it exhausting at the time now look back on it more fondly. I looked at our senior yearbook and found a few quotes from students that were the versions of the You Tube video, but they were in the minority:

"Princeton, to say the least, has been a trying experience for me. I think it was just the case of attempting to place a square peg in a round hole or vice versa. Princeton was simply not for me."

"Princeton is like a mop. You come here to soak up everything it has to offer and leave totally wrung out, only to realize the job can never be finished."

"On an individual level, the people I have met at Princeton are as nice as any I've come across anywhere. But on the whole, since coming to Princeton, I now know what it feels like to hate myself, to feel vastly inferior to anyone else I encounter, and simply to be unhappy. These lessons will be hard to unlearn, but I'm going to try."

Of course there were then hundreds of quotes from graduates looking back on all the fun they had, or all they learned, or what other famous quotes inspired them, but these quotes seem more poignant.

I bet CS wasn't even in the Top 20 majors 20 years ago...and now it is the #1 major by a fair amount.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anybody want to summarize what he said?

You have to watch it because he’s quite genuine and that doesn’t translate.

But basically- Princeton is a a really unhappy unhealthy place. People are manipulative, extremely competitive, and stressed. Do your research before you choose you college. Don’t just listen to the tour guides. Watch how students interact. Then he gave really good advice on choosing friends wisely!

Sounds blah big listening to it gives it credibility

Curious as to his audience. I agree completely...don't just do official college tours. Try to meet as many current students as possible. My kid thought CMU would be great for them, but found the STEM kids he met so stressed and depressed, that it was immediately crossed off the list.

[Anonymous]

I can hear the parents of the kids he is referring to on this thread. They will do anything to get their kid into an Ivy, then a job at a FAANG or IB, regardless of whether that is what the kid wants or is right for them. His plea will fall on deaf ears as the parents make excuses or blame him.

Let’s catch up in 20 years and see how it all worked out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do know you can transfer - right? I do not feel bad for anyone who just whines and doesn't try to do anything about it.

If you watch this kid’s YouTube video on where he got in, you will see he is the child of immigrants with a very low income. I don’t think transferring is easy for kids that are on large amounts of financial aid. He was a questbridge finalist or something, so under $65,000 HHI

Wonder if part of his problem is meeting kids there who have immense family wealth and he’s being eaten up with jealousy. It’s one thing to know that billionaires exist, it’s another to meet one and think “why him and not me?”

This is probably the most unlikely theory.

I went to a private high school that had uber-rich kids as well as trailer park kids on scholarships. (Many others, like me, had parents with good incomes e.g. doctors and lawyers but not uber-rich.) You have no idea how much smoldering resentment the poor kids had for the rich kids. You drive a beat up old junker and the other kids have brand new BMWs. The sad part was that the poor kids thought all the rich kids were snobs who looked down on them, when in fact the rich kids didn't think about them at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lots of effort here to discount what he's saying.

But it is true that some of the top ivies are pressure cookers. Why deny that? You're taking uber competitive kids and putting them all in a new environment where all of a sudden everyone else is just as smart as them. It's rough. Why try and claim it's because of this kid's personal circumstances? Lots of folks say what he's saying. And he's just trying to remind you of this as you're navigating college choices. I don't think it was poor judgment. I think it was brave. He's trying to advocate for his values in a way that helps others. He's trying to say that maybe "elite" isn't worth the toxic environment. Good for him - I'd hire him.

This kid has some wisdom and you all are so entrenched in the idea of elite that you can't take it in. He's asking you to try and see things differently for your kids' sake. I honestly feel badly for the kids who are trained to chase status.

Sure, Princeton is a pressure cooker. Many other schools are too. But this kid's message - "don't go there" - is not "wisdom". (It's also irrelevant because thousands will apply no matter what he says.) You just have to understand it's a pressure cooker going into it. Furthermore you have to prepare your kids to work hard in an environment where everyone else is as smart as them - something that is true of many other schools than Princeton.

[Anonymous]

I came from a lower-income community and went to Princeton. I know how tough that transition is, and I had a high-school friend who never recovered from the Ivy she attended. My daughter attends a super-selective school and has a roommate from such a background who is clearly clinically depressed.

Plus, Princeton unlike Harvard and Yale doesn’t grade inflate as much, particularly in STEM, and kids who are super stressed about getting high paying jobs pack into those majors (rather than thinking that maybe attending Princeton is enough).

I don’t have a clear answer. On average Ivies benefit the lives of low-income kids. For sure attending Princeton changed my life for the better. But they can also destroy some kids, too. And I think this preprofessional obsession that has consumed so many kids and parents is horrible for this generation’s mental health.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anybody want to summarize what he said?

You have to watch it because he’s quite genuine and that doesn’t translate.

But basically- Princeton is a a really unhappy unhealthy place. People are manipulative, extremely competitive, and stressed. Do your research before you choose you college. Don’t just listen to the tour guides. Watch how students interact. Then he gave really good advice on choosing friends wisely!

Sounds blah big listening to it gives it credibility

Russell Crowe as John Nash had a similar experience at Princeton in the 40s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem with QB and colleges with low income kids is nobody gives them a crash course in social dynamics when you throw $65k kids into a pool where the majority are wealthy and super wealthy.

Lots of focus on academics and traditional college life, but nobody gives the “scared straight” talk about how jarring the different socio-economic strata may be.

There was an article several years back about how one Ivy school (it may have been Princeton) would give FA kids free tickets to student events and what not (that required an entry fee), but you had to wait in a separate line that basically “outed” you as poor. Well, the poor kids just stopped going until someone in the administration asked.

Also, it was only recently that many of these schools decided that they wouldn’t have students do work study in the dining halls, because it just created a terrible dynamic betweeen rich and poor.

Maybe they are starting to wake up to this…don’t know.

I wasn't QB, but attended a T20 school eons ago. One where 60% of students received NO financial aid at all (school is now over $90K/year for reference). I had to do Work Study, hold a job on all breaks (and work 40hr+ weeks during that time), and manage my money carefully. While these kids were going out to dinner on Fri/Sat/Sunday and then to a show or costly activity, I had to choose---I would have $5-6 for the entire weekend. So that mean eating out or a movie on campus for 2-3$ but not both. So I often had to simply not join activities because I couldn't afford it. And I wasn't QB level of income, we were slightly above that. But it was a hard adjustment to be with kids who drove fancy cars (and had them on campus), who went to Mexico for Spring break and skiing in Europe over winter break, etc.

[Anonymous]

I was not prepared for college, and my grades showed it. But I shrugged that off and took advantage of Princeton’s enormous alumni network to score an amazing job in a competitive field. I’ve worked successfully in that field to this day.

Part of problem maybe is kids at Princeton do not get that they do not need perfect grades at the school to be successful. The school offers so much, going there for free is winning the lottery. But students need to have the confidence to survive the transition and take advantage

[Anonymous]

Sorry cut off - take advantage of everyone that was there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I came from a lower-income community and went to Princeton. I know how tough that transition is, and I had a high-school friend who never recovered from the Ivy she attended. My daughter attends a super-selective school and has a roommate from such a background who is clearly clinically depressed.

Plus, Princeton unlike Harvard and Yale doesn’t grade inflate as much, particularly in STEM, and kids who are super stressed about getting high paying jobs pack into those majors (rather than thinking that maybe attending Princeton is enough).

I don’t have a clear answer. On average Ivies benefit the lives of low-income kids. For sure attending Princeton changed my life for the better. But they can also destroy some kids, too. And I think this preprofessional obsession that has consumed so many kids and parents is horrible for this generation’s mental health.

And also their capacity for joy and wonder. It all feels terribly out of balance, like some Koyaanisqatsi of the soul.