Hebrew Catholics

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:For Jews who have joined the Catholic Church, but retain their Jewish cultural/ethnic/religious identity, how have you done so? Do you go to mass and synagogue? Do you find yourself welcome in both communities?

You can’t be both Catholic and Jewish.

You can be Catholic by faith and Jewish by ethnic background. Here are some Jewish converts to Catholics explaining that in their own words: https://chnetwork.org/converts/jewish/

But how can a Jew who has joined the Catholic Church retain their religious identity?

My father was Jewish and my mother is Catholic. I was raised with no religious faith. At 36, did RCIA and became a Catholic. I definitely retain a Jewish cultural and ethnic identify. Plus, I have a VERY Jewish name so everyone thinks I am Jewish in the first place.

Are you OP? According to Jews, you're not actually Jewish (religiously, anyway), and it's pretty hard to claim any affiliation with the Jewish community when you have actively converted to Catholicism as an adult. Of course, you ARE Jewish, ethnically, and no one can take that away from you, but there really isn't a community-based group that you can belong to, or any specific things you can participate in which you would not have forfeited by converting as an adult. So your name and family history are pretty much all that is left, and quite frankly, if you have converted intentionally, then I can't see any reason why you would want to retain any kind of Jewish identity.

Wrong. Extremely and offensively.

A converted/communed-to-Catholic would be quite welcome in a Secular Jewish organization. Nothing can take away OP's Jewish heritage. Judaism is not trademarked club with official rules. There are many kinds of Judaism (and many kinds of Christianity, but Roman Catholicism is much more rigid)

This whole thread needs to cool it with the small-minded bigotry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Jews who have joined the Catholic Church, but retain their Jewish cultural/ethnic/religious identity, how have you done so? Do you go to mass and synagogue? Do you find yourself welcome in both communities?

You can’t be both Catholic and Jewish.

You can be Catholic by faith and Jewish by ethnic background. Here are some Jewish converts to Catholics explaining that in their own words: https://chnetwork.org/converts/jewish/

But how can a Jew who has joined the Catholic Church retain their religious identity?

My father was Jewish and my mother is Catholic. I was raised with no religious faith. At 36, did RCIA and became a Catholic. I definitely retain a Jewish cultural and ethnic identify. Plus, I have a VERY Jewish name so everyone thinks I am Jewish in the first place.

Are you OP? According to Jews, you're not actually Jewish (religiously, anyway), and it's pretty hard to claim any affiliation with the Jewish community when you have actively converted to Catholicism as an adult. Of course, you ARE Jewish, ethnically, and no one can take that away from you, but there really isn't a community-based group that you can belong to, or any specific things you can participate in which you would not have forfeited by converting as an adult. So your name and family history are pretty much all that is left, and quite frankly, if you have converted intentionally, then I can't see any reason why you would want to retain any kind of Jewish identity.

Wrong. Extremely and offensively.

A converted/communed-to-Catholic would be quite welcome in a Secular Jewish organization. Nothing can take away OP's Jewish heritage. Judaism is not trademarked club with official rules. There are many kinds of Judaism (and many kinds of Christianity, but Roman Catholicism is much more rigid)

This whole thread needs to cool it with the small-minded bigotry.

ummm what Jewish organization would consider someone who converted to Catholicism to be Jewish? People on DCUM have really odd ideas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A Messianic congregation is a Protestant denomination.
A Hebrew Catholic is a Jew who is in communion with the Catholic church.

wtf does “a Jew in communion with the Catholic Church” mean?

[Anonymous]

Is this whole thread trolling by some trad Catholic who wants to argue for conversion of the Jews?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

^This. You retain your ethnicity, obviously (which is different from nationality). Jewish culture is very intertwined with the Jewish religion though, and herein lies the problem for some converts. An acquaintance who is ethnically Jewish said that his community made it clear that, basically, he could believe anything he wanted and remain culturally Jewish EXCEPT for claiming that Jesus is the Messiah. Then you're out. Pray to mother earth, talk to flowers, practice astrology, whatever, just absolutely no Jesus is eternal God claims.

The last sentence is spot on. What is it about accepting Christian beliefs? The Jewish context of the New Testament is apparent to anyone who reads it, so, if anything, you would think ethnic/cultural Jews who profess Christian beliefs would be accepted by Jews perhaps in a similar way to Jews who assert the Chabad Rebbe is the Messiah are not shunned.

St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) was a Jewish nun who was arrested specifically because she was Jewish and killed by the Nazis, along with other Jewish Catholics. While she may not have taken a traditional contemporary Jewish path, she was no less Jewish.

Are there ethnic, cultural Jews who are baptized Catholics who attend mass, but also periodically attend Reform congregations (or other Jewish denominations), perhaps for a Purim celebration or Shabbat?

What on Earth are you on about???

The Christian bible repeatedly and deliberately mistranslates the Hebrew in the Tanakh for the purposes of getting people to join Christianity. Jews do not believe in the Christian bible..

And there are definitely plenty of Jews who think the Lubavitchers are on the edge of or fully on idolatry with their Rebbe beliefs. No other Jewish denomination shares that belief.

You cannot expect "mainstream" Jews to accept a by birth Jew (or even convert) who has religiously walked away from the Jewish faith to be bumping elbows at Shabbat services.

And why would the OP even want to continue to be involved with *religious* Jewish life given they have rejected it??

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

"The Christian bible repeatedly and deliberately mistranslates the Hebrew in the Tanakh for the purposes of getting people to join Christianity. Jews do not believe in the Christian bible."

Would it be fair to assume that you are Modern Orthodox? Would it be fair to assume that you have never read the New Testament?
Please provide examples. Keep in mind that the Septuagint Tanakh (translated by Jewish scholars in the 200 BCs) and the basis of the New Testament citations predates the Masoretic Tanakh (of which you may be referring) by about 1,000 years.

DP Jewish (I've been both Reform and Conservative). I have read the New Testament.

The most blatant example of a Christian mistranslation (or perhaps just a misunderstanding) is the whole "virgin" thing. The Hebrew means more like "young girl," not an allusion to a virgin birth.

There are more translations that Christians use to read Jesus into the Old Testament, like translating a Hebrew word with connotations of "digging" to mean "piercing" or reading prophets who were talking metaphorically about themselves in the third person to be talking about the future Jesus.

Plus, there's a whole way that Jews understand the Tanakh through our history, through midrash (Oral Torah), through our other texts (like Mishnah and Talmud), and through centuries of teshuvot (responsa or rulings on various issues). Reading it without those contextual pieces makes the reading of it incomplete from a Jewish perspective.

All of this is to say that it doesn't make sense to be Catholic and to engage religiously with Judaism. We technically read the same texts, but don't fundamentally don't read them the same way. If OP wanted to find a way to continue celebrating Purim or Passover by throwing a Purim party or hosting a Catholic seder (problematic, but that's a different conversation) as cultural things, then sure. But she's talking about going to synagogue. There is nothing cultural or ethnic about synagogue. That's where religious Judaism happens, and she rejected being religiously Jewish by becoming Catholic.

To echo PP, I really don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for y'all to grasp.

It’s difficult because there is a repeated theme of DCUM poster/s who are unaccountably offended by the notion that Jews have criteria for what a Jew is. Despite literally every other religion having such criteria. I don’t want to say it is anti-semitism but I believe it is something peculiar to some Christians on here who seem to want to believe that Judaism is just Jr Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

^This. You retain your ethnicity, obviously (which is different from nationality). Jewish culture is very intertwined with the Jewish religion though, and herein lies the problem for some converts. An acquaintance who is ethnically Jewish said that his community made it clear that, basically, he could believe anything he wanted and remain culturally Jewish EXCEPT for claiming that Jesus is the Messiah. Then you're out. Pray to mother earth, talk to flowers, practice astrology, whatever, just absolutely no Jesus is eternal God claims.

The last sentence is spot on. What is it about accepting Christian beliefs? The Jewish context of the New Testament is apparent to anyone who reads it, so, if anything, you would think ethnic/cultural Jews who profess Christian beliefs would be accepted by Jews perhaps in a similar way to Jews who assert the Chabad Rebbe is the Messiah are not shunned.

St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) was a Jewish nun who was arrested specifically because she was Jewish and killed by the Nazis, along with other Jewish Catholics. While she may not have taken a traditional contemporary Jewish path, she was no less Jewish.

Are there ethnic, cultural Jews who are baptized Catholics who attend mass, but also periodically attend Reform congregations (or other Jewish denominations), perhaps for a Purim celebration or Shabbat?

What on Earth are you on about???

The Christian bible repeatedly and deliberately mistranslates the Hebrew in the Tanakh for the purposes of getting people to join Christianity. Jews do not believe in the Christian bible..

And there are definitely plenty of Jews who think the Lubavitchers are on the edge of or fully on idolatry with their Rebbe beliefs. No other Jewish denomination shares that belief.

You cannot expect "mainstream" Jews to accept a by birth Jew (or even convert) who has religiously walked away from the Jewish faith to be bumping elbows at Shabbat services.

And why would the OP even want to continue to be involved with *religious* Jewish life given they have rejected it??

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

"The Christian bible repeatedly and deliberately mistranslates the Hebrew in the Tanakh for the purposes of getting people to join Christianity. Jews do not believe in the Christian bible."

Would it be fair to assume that you are Modern Orthodox? Would it be fair to assume that you have never read the New Testament?
Please provide examples. Keep in mind that the Septuagint Tanakh (translated by Jewish scholars in the 200 BCs) and the basis of the New Testament citations predates the Masoretic Tanakh (of which you may be referring) by about 1,000 years.

DP Jewish (I've been both Reform and Conservative). I have read the New Testament.

The most blatant example of a Christian mistranslation (or perhaps just a misunderstanding) is the whole "virgin" thing. The Hebrew means more like "young girl," not an allusion to a virgin birth.

There are more translations that Christians use to read Jesus into the Old Testament, like translating a Hebrew word with connotations of "digging" to mean "piercing" or reading prophets who were talking metaphorically about themselves in the third person to be talking about the future Jesus.

Plus, there's a whole way that Jews understand the Tanakh through our history, through midrash (Oral Torah), through our other texts (like Mishnah and Talmud), and through centuries of teshuvot (responsa or rulings on various issues). Reading it without those contextual pieces makes the reading of it incomplete from a Jewish perspective.

All of this is to say that it doesn't make sense to be Catholic and to engage religiously with Judaism. We technically read the same texts, but don't fundamentally don't read them the same way. If OP wanted to find a way to continue celebrating Purim or Passover by throwing a Purim party or hosting a Catholic seder (problematic, but that's a different conversation) as cultural things, then sure. But she's talking about going to synagogue. There is nothing cultural or ethnic about synagogue. That's where religious Judaism happens, and she rejected being religiously Jewish by becoming Catholic.

To echo PP, I really don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for y'all to grasp.

It’s difficult because there is a repeated theme of DCUM poster/s who are unaccountably offended by the notion that Jews have criteria for what a Jew is. Despite literally every other religion having such criteria. I don’t want to say it is anti-semitism but I believe it is something peculiar to some Christians on here who seem to want to believe that Judaism is just Jr Christianity.

This. Also, because Judaism predates the ideas of religion, ethnicity, and race even though it participates in all of these modern categories, it is a poor fit for this argument separating religion and ethnicity for a community that doesn't do that.

Someone who converts leaves the tribe in every sense. Conversion doesn't change DNA, but it does mean leaving the community.

[Anonymous]

It seems clear that no one who fits the OP's description of who they were addressing ("Jews who have joined the Catholic Church, but retain their Jewish cultural/ethnic/religious identity") have been weighing in on this thread, possibly because they don't exist or possibly because if they do exist, they decided to keep quiet. Also seems clear that no, such people would not still attend synagogue, because... why would you do that?

All the rest, as we might say, is commentary.

[Anonymous]

This thread is still going - hilarious.

The folks who actually believe that Judaism as "Jr. Christianity" (not saying anyone here does), literally know nothing about Judaism.

It makes me cringe when Christians say that their NT is just a continuation from the Tanakh (or in their minds, the "Old Testament"), or that Christianity is just an "extension" of Judaism. In reality, they are so different from each other, they should not be lumped together by Christians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Jews who have joined the Catholic Church, but retain their Jewish cultural/ethnic/religious identity, how have you done so? Do you go to mass and synagogue? Do you find yourself welcome in both communities?

You can’t be both Catholic and Jewish.

You can be Catholic by faith and Jewish by ethnic background. Here are some Jewish converts to Catholics explaining that in their own words: https://chnetwork.org/converts/jewish/

But how can a Jew who has joined the Catholic Church retain their religious identity?

My father was Jewish and my mother is Catholic. I was raised with no religious faith. At 36, did RCIA and became a Catholic. I definitely retain a Jewish cultural and ethnic identify. Plus, I have a VERY Jewish name so everyone thinks I am Jewish in the first place.

Are you OP? According to Jews, you're not actually Jewish (religiously, anyway), and it's pretty hard to claim any affiliation with the Jewish community when you have actively converted to Catholicism as an adult. Of course, you ARE Jewish, ethnically, and no one can take that away from you, but there really isn't a community-based group that you can belong to, or any specific things you can participate in which you would not have forfeited by converting as an adult. So your name and family history are pretty much all that is left, and quite frankly, if you have converted intentionally, then I can't see any reason why you would want to retain any kind of Jewish identity.

A Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother are as Jewish as the children of Joseph and Moses. That's pretty good company.
Does this make sense? No one on your father's side is Jewish or your mother's side except for your mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother makes you Jewish but everyone on your father's side and everyone on your mother's side except your mother's mother (even your mother's father and your mother's mother's father) means you're not Jewish. What is the authority for this rule?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Jews who have joined the Catholic Church, but retain their Jewish cultural/ethnic/religious identity, how have you done so? Do you go to mass and synagogue? Do you find yourself welcome in both communities?

You can’t be both Catholic and Jewish.

You can be Catholic by faith and Jewish by ethnic background. Here are some Jewish converts to Catholics explaining that in their own words: https://chnetwork.org/converts/jewish/

But how can a Jew who has joined the Catholic Church retain their religious identity?

My father was Jewish and my mother is Catholic. I was raised with no religious faith. At 36, did RCIA and became a Catholic. I definitely retain a Jewish cultural and ethnic identify. Plus, I have a VERY Jewish name so everyone thinks I am Jewish in the first place.

Are you OP? According to Jews, you're not actually Jewish (religiously, anyway), and it's pretty hard to claim any affiliation with the Jewish community when you have actively converted to Catholicism as an adult. Of course, you ARE Jewish, ethnically, and no one can take that away from you, but there really isn't a community-based group that you can belong to, or any specific things you can participate in which you would not have forfeited by converting as an adult. So your name and family history are pretty much all that is left, and quite frankly, if you have converted intentionally, then I can't see any reason why you would want to retain any kind of Jewish identity.

A Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother are as Jewish as the children of Joseph and Moses. That's pretty good company.
Does this make sense? No one on your father's side is Jewish or your mother's side except for your mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother makes you Jewish but everyone on your father's side and everyone on your mother's side except your mother's mother (even your mother's father and your mother's mother's father) means you're not Jewish. What is the authority for this rule?

Reform also rejects this. One Jewish parent means you are considered Jewish. Israel requires just one Jewish grandparent.

[Anonymous]

A Jew who joins the Catholic Church is still Jewish. Edith Stein (St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross) was specifically killed by the Nazis because she was a Catholic Jew (Hebrew Catholic) as were many other Catholic Jews/Hebrew Catholics. A Catholic Jew/Hebrew Catholic can still celebrate Sukkot (remembering the fleeting nature of this life and to honor G-d for taking ancestors out of the desert), Hanukkah (a holiday that is part of the Catholic Bible (1 and 2 Maccabees and John 10:22 (the Festival of Dedication)) and involves celebrating G-d's protecting the Jewish people), Tu B'Shvat (Earth Day), Purim (G-d's protecting the Jewish people), Passover (G-d's liberation of the Jewish people from slavery but with modifications to the seder), Shavuot (receiving the Ten Commandments), Rosh Hashanah (start of the Jewish calendar), and even Yom Kipppur (as a modified Day of Atonement perhaps with confession and a somber day of prayer). Similarly, Shabbat - to honor G-d for creating the World.

To the extent the posters here are representative of the larger Jewish community, that the majority of traditionally observant Jews think it is weird or are uncomfortable with the idea of a Catholic Jew/Hebrew Catholic doesn't mean they are correct.
What matters is whether it is okay in G-d's eyes. What is wrong with any of the above?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A Jew who joins the Catholic Church is still Jewish. Edith Stein (St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross) was specifically killed by the Nazis because she was a Catholic Jew (Hebrew Catholic) as were many other Catholic Jews/Hebrew Catholics. A Catholic Jew/Hebrew Catholic can still celebrate Sukkot (remembering the fleeting nature of this life and to honor G-d for taking ancestors out of the desert), Hanukkah (a holiday that is part of the Catholic Bible (1 and 2 Maccabees and John 10:22 (the Festival of Dedication)) and involves celebrating G-d's protecting the Jewish people), Tu B'Shvat (Earth Day), Purim (G-d's protecting the Jewish people), Passover (G-d's liberation of the Jewish people from slavery but with modifications to the seder), Shavuot (receiving the Ten Commandments), Rosh Hashanah (start of the Jewish calendar), and even Yom Kipppur (as a modified Day of Atonement perhaps with confession and a somber day of prayer). Similarly, Shabbat - to honor G-d for creating the World.

To the extent the posters here are representative of the larger Jewish community, that the majority of traditionally observant Jews think it is weird or are uncomfortable with the idea of a Catholic Jew/Hebrew Catholic doesn't mean they are correct.
What matters is whether it is okay in G-d's eyes. What is wrong with any of the above?

Right. Because definitions of who belongs in a group should always be set by those at its fringes with minimal knowledge and weak affiliation. I mean, who needs a core when you have a noisy periphery?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A Jew who joins the Catholic Church is still Jewish. Edith Stein (St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross) was specifically killed by the Nazis because she was a Catholic Jew (Hebrew Catholic) as were many other Catholic Jews/Hebrew Catholics. A Catholic Jew/Hebrew Catholic can still celebrate Sukkot (remembering the fleeting nature of this life and to honor G-d for taking ancestors out of the desert), Hanukkah (a holiday that is part of the Catholic Bible (1 and 2 Maccabees and John 10:22 (the Festival of Dedication)) and involves celebrating G-d's protecting the Jewish people), Tu B'Shvat (Earth Day), Purim (G-d's protecting the Jewish people), Passover (G-d's liberation of the Jewish people from slavery but with modifications to the seder), Shavuot (receiving the Ten Commandments), Rosh Hashanah (start of the Jewish calendar), and even Yom Kipppur (as a modified Day of Atonement perhaps with confession and a somber day of prayer). Similarly, Shabbat - to honor G-d for creating the World.

To the extent the posters here are representative of the larger Jewish community, that the majority of traditionally observant Jews think it is weird or are uncomfortable with the idea of a Catholic Jew/Hebrew Catholic doesn't mean they are correct.
What matters is whether it is okay in G-d's eyes. What is wrong with any of the above?

A Jew who joins the Catholic Church is still ethnically Jewish. Hitler didn't differentiate. And, for the millionth time, no one here has said OP isn't ethnically Jewish. She's just not religiously Jewish anymore and it's inappropriate for her to go to synagogue, which is a place for religious Judaism. And, yes, the majority of Jews and the leaders of the Jewish community are "correct" about our own definition of who is a Jew.

[Anonymous]

A Jew who converts out to another religion is an apostate. They are no longer counted in a minyan or eligible for an Aliyah or full participation in Jewish rituals. In short, OP worshipping at synagogue as a Jew (which was her question) would not be welcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A Jew who joins the Catholic Church is still Jewish. Edith Stein (St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross) was specifically killed by the Nazis because she was a Catholic Jew (Hebrew Catholic) as were many other Catholic Jews/Hebrew Catholics. A Catholic Jew/Hebrew Catholic can still celebrate Sukkot (remembering the fleeting nature of this life and to honor G-d for taking ancestors out of the desert), Hanukkah (a holiday that is part of the Catholic Bible (1 and 2 Maccabees and John 10:22 (the Festival of Dedication)) and involves celebrating G-d's protecting the Jewish people), Tu B'Shvat (Earth Day), Purim (G-d's protecting the Jewish people), Passover (G-d's liberation of the Jewish people from slavery but with modifications to the seder), Shavuot (receiving the Ten Commandments), Rosh Hashanah (start of the Jewish calendar), and even Yom Kipppur (as a modified Day of Atonement perhaps with confession and a somber day of prayer). Similarly, Shabbat - to honor G-d for creating the World.

To the extent the posters here are representative of the larger Jewish community, that the majority of traditionally observant Jews think it is weird or are uncomfortable with the idea of a Catholic Jew/Hebrew Catholic doesn't mean they are correct.
What matters is whether it is okay in G-d's eyes. What is wrong with any of the above?

What’s wrong is that Jews, like any other religion, get to decide who is in and who is out. If you convert to Catholicism, 99.99% will say you are no longer Jewish. Just like if a Catholic converts to Judaism, 99.99% of Catholics will say you are no longer Catholic. This is not hard to understand unless you have a weird grudge about Jews.