4 years of foreign language

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If his school offers AP in high language he should take it. It is supposedly preferred over any elective, even if the elective is relevant to his prospective major. This is one area our college counselor won’t budge on, and she’s pretty flexible about most other things.

That would be an unnecessary requirement for a STEM major.

When I was at UVa in Engineering, every other E school student I knew had 4 years of a single foreign language -- even the kid from a poor county in SW VA.

It might not be a requirement at UVa Engineering, but it pretty clearly is preferred.

My current engineering first year did four years of FL but two were in middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This comes up every year and I get needlessly aggravated. I was a triple major in college with two languages and my oldest child took 7 years of Spanish in MS and HS, so I’m not any language. But some kids just do not like it, and the truth is almost no one can speak Spanish decently just from taking HS Spanish in most public schools. It is just a waste of time for most kids.
My younger kid really wants to quit after Spanish 4 in 10th grade so they can double up on AP science and math classes (AP phy, AP chem, AP calc, AP stats). It seems dumb to make them instead take Spanish 5, when in reality I know they will get very little from it.

This point always comes up but it doesn’t make much sense to me. Most kids that take four years of math barely scratch the surface of higher level math. Kids that take four years of science aren’t scientists.

On the one hand, I understand that it feels absurd when kids take four years of a language and don’t have much competency in it (especially for “easier” languages for English speakers), but it’s not like they are experts in others topics after four years either. We just don’t think of other topics that way - in those cases, we just view it as a necessary part of the process. And for kids that hate math and science, those classes are no better use of their time nor are they necessarily getting much from them either. We still expect the kids to take them as part of their education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This comes up every year and I get needlessly aggravated. I was a triple major in college with two languages and my oldest child took 7 years of Spanish in MS and HS, so I’m not any language. But some kids just do not like it, and the truth is almost no one can speak Spanish decently just from taking HS Spanish in most public schools. It is just a waste of time for most kids.
My younger kid really wants to quit after Spanish 4 in 10th grade so they can double up on AP science and math classes (AP phy, AP chem, AP calc, AP stats). It seems dumb to make them instead take Spanish 5, when in reality I know they will get very little from it.

This point always comes up but it doesn’t make much sense to me. Most kids that take four years of math barely scratch the surface of higher level math. Kids that take four years of science aren’t scientists.

On the one hand, I understand that it feels absurd when kids take four years of a language and don’t have much competency in it (especially for “easier” languages for English speakers), but it’s not like they are experts in others topics after four years either. We just don’t think of other topics that way - in those cases, we just view it as a necessary part of the process. And for kids that hate math and science, those classes are no better use of their time nor are they necessarily getting much from them either. We still expect the kids to take them as part of their education.

The goal of K-12 is not to produce professionals. It is to produce citizens and lifelong learners, who have a basic foundation for decades of future self-directed learners after school is over.

A 4 year language student can stumble their way through a conversation with a native of that language, and a 4 year math student can stumble their way through the math of personal finance and home maintenance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This comes up every year and I get needlessly aggravated. I was a triple major in college with two languages and my oldest child took 7 years of Spanish in MS and HS, so I’m not any language. But some kids just do not like it, and the truth is almost no one can speak Spanish decently just from taking HS Spanish in most public schools. It is just a waste of time for most kids.
My younger kid really wants to quit after Spanish 4 in 10th grade so they can double up on AP science and math classes (AP phy, AP chem, AP calc, AP stats). It seems dumb to make them instead take Spanish 5, when in reality I know they will get very little from it.

This point always comes up but it doesn’t make much sense to me. Most kids that take four years of math barely scratch the surface of higher level math. Kids that take four years of science aren’t scientists.

On the one hand, I understand that it feels absurd when kids take four years of a language and don’t have much competency in it (especially for “easier” languages for English speakers), but it’s not like they are experts in others topics after four years either. We just don’t think of other topics that way - in those cases, we just view it as a necessary part of the process. And for kids that hate math and science, those classes are no better use of their time nor are they necessarily getting much from them either. We still expect the kids to take them as part of their education.

The goal of K-12 is not to produce professionals. It is to produce citizens and lifelong learners, who have a basic foundation for decades of future self-directed learners after school is over.

A 4 year language student can stumble their way through a conversation with a native of that language, and a 4 year math student can stumble their way through the math of personal finance and home maintenance.

Indeed, that’s the point I’m making. It’s not about whether they are deeply competent in a topic at the end of the four years. It’s about learning, education, exposure. But for some reason people tend to assess foreign language in a way that they don’t apply to other subjects.

[Anonymous]

For T20 same language 4 years/reaching AP.

[Anonymous]

UVA clearly prefers World Language up to AP level. Do some students get in without that class? Sure, but don’t complain if your kid is not admitted without that AP level class. I believe this is the case with Ivy League schools and other top ranked institutions. Taking that class improves your chances more than tripling up on only math or science APs, except for maybe MIT and Cal Tech. Why shoot yourself in the foot and not take that class?

Many students who are humanities/language smart-type kids know they have to take math at least up to calculus to have a shot at those schools, even though they know they will not major in a STEM field. Yoi just have to play the game.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is preferred for top schools. Does it have to be the same language?

DS took French in 8th for HS credit, didn’t like it and switched over to Spanish in 9th grade.

He’s taking Spanish in 10th and 11th too, but does he need to take it senior year too to be competitive for college admission? There’s other electives he wants to take.

DC wanted to switch to Latin for a couple of years and College Counselor warned against it, as they had taken Spanish all the way through up to that point. DC ended up taking two more years of Spanish. Accepted at UVA, so what the others are saying about UVA and language is correct. Benefit of taking it in addition to likely helping with admissions is that they placed out of all but one additional lang requirement, so after 1st semester, they are DONE!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This comes up every year and I get needlessly aggravated. I was a triple major in college with two languages and my oldest child took 7 years of Spanish in MS and HS, so I’m not any language. But some kids just do not like it, and the truth is almost no one can speak Spanish decently just from taking HS Spanish in most public schools. It is just a waste of time for most kids.
My younger kid really wants to quit after Spanish 4 in 10th grade so they can double up on AP science and math classes (AP phy, AP chem, AP calc, AP stats). It seems dumb to make them instead take Spanish 5, when in reality I know they will get very little from it.

The main focus of WL classes are biliteracy which is reading and writing in the language. It takes much longer for conversational proficiency in the language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This comes up every year and I get needlessly aggravated. I was a triple major in college with two languages and my oldest child took 7 years of Spanish in MS and HS, so I’m not any language. But some kids just do not like it, and the truth is almost no one can speak Spanish decently just from taking HS Spanish in most public schools. It is just a waste of time for most kids.
My younger kid really wants to quit after Spanish 4 in 10th grade so they can double up on AP science and math classes (AP phy, AP chem, AP calc, AP stats). It seems dumb to make them instead take Spanish 5, when in reality I know they will get very little from it.

The main focus of WL classes are biliteracy which is reading and writing in the language. It takes much longer for conversational proficiency in the language.

What the PP is missing is that the goal of the elite schools who look for four years of high school WL is that, like UVA, they consider WL a "core" area of study, one worthy of demonstrating the diligence and practice to try to master. Why? Because the top institutions of higher learning in America believe they are educating future citizens of the world, who will be leaders in a more cosmopolitan business, political, and economic environment and to that end should be as fluent as possible in multiple languages. This should be applauded. It's an answer to the oft-repeaded accusation that Americans are too insular and content with one languages This is also why the top universities in America (or slacs like mine) have their own foreign language requirement on top of the high school requirements. It's all about exposure to a world beyond the US. My humanities kid at UVA (high school spanish four years) was not happy about the UVA language requirement but picked German out of the 64 languages offered and ended up going to Munich and Berlin with his prof and class during the winter J term. That led to an interest in studying abroad, which led to a UVA summer term at Oxford, then an application to Oxford for an MPhil, then a full scholarship offer from Oxford for a DPhil, which is where he is now. This would not have happened but for the UVA foreign language requirement.