MCPS Teachers: Why cling to grade inflation and disregard MAP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So my DD is a 5th grader and math has never been her strongest subject. But she's always done well academically overall.

I understand in elementary school that the bar for As and Bs is not as high as it is in middle and elementary, but my DD has gotten nothing but As and Bs in math throughout her elementary schooling. However, I looked at her latest MAP-M score and she's in the 39th percentile and below the district average. At our parent-teacher conference, I raised this point to her teacher and specifically asked how she would adjust my daughter's math instruction to get her to either meeting the MCPS average or above.

The teacher basically argued that I don't need to worry about the MAP-M score because it tests things that they either brush over in the curriculum quickly or that they just haven't gotten to yet. That answer didn't really square with me because my daughter has struggled with some of the math homework at home. So I know there are some gaps that make independent math work challenging for her. And yet, she consistently gets As and Bs in math each marking period.

I did see she got a C and a D on one quiz each this school year, which was a first for her, but the teacher didn't use those quizzes as evidence of any kind of problem. She basically thought my daughter was fine and that I shouldn't worry about the MAP-M score being in the 39th percentile.

I decided to get my daughter evaluated at Mathnasium and guess what? Their assessment matched what she'd gotten on the MAP-M score: That she was just below grade level. The good news is, I have the resources to invest in the enrichment at Mathnasium to get her back on grade level, but it's a shame that's the only way to get my daughter back on track. Even worse, the classroom grades my daughter is receiving on report cards don't even accurately flag the severity of the issue to allow me as a parent to understand that she needs support. Only the MAP-M score flagged this for me. And when I brought it up with the teacher, she basically made it clear she didn't put too much weight into them.

I don't understand why a teacher would grade in a way that doesn't accurately denote the deficiencies in the student's performance AND simultaneously dismiss what MAP is saying. Teachers, can you explain why this happens? I suspect it's due to pushes from admin to keep grades at a certain level (yes, me and my daughter are non-white and the majority of kids at my daughter's school are non-white too), so I can probably surmise why the grade inflation is happening, but I don't understand ignoring the MAP data.

I'd put a lot more stock in MAP than any teacher assessment. So many are just off the mark. Sure, there are some good teachers but at least in my experience many especially in ES just don't spend time with most kids especially one's who aren't struggling and when they do things like assessments are pressed for time so often aren't accurate.

[Anonymous]

I would also emphasize what the percentiles mean - 39th percentile means she scored better than or equal to 39 percent of kids in her grade. It doesn't technically say whether or not this is "at grade level" (unless you got the info on your report of what "grade level" represents) but it does say that she's not in the top half of students in math in her grade level (in theory, everyone can improve enough to be "at grade level" or the standards for "grade level" could drop enough for this to be the case.) I would also agree to take more stock in the MAP scores. If anything though, at our ES, my kids tend to get Bs in math some quarters despite being 98-99th percentile in math. I do always talk to them about what's going on when this happens (because it usually means they're not checking their work enough) but it's not true that every teacher at every MCPS school just hands out As. (I have a hard time believing that everyone else is getting As.)

This is actually why I think that standardized scores can be more useful than grades - they're scored the same way across the state/country. We probably have too many of them and yes, one can have an off day, but they still provide you with good info. Whereas comparing GPAs across schools seems like a fool's errand, regardless of what "standards" teachers are supposed to use to grade them.

So OP - I would basically say, don't trust the teacher at all. Do what you know is best for your DD. There's a chance that math won't be her thing (someone has to be 39th percentile), but she can still improve. (One of my kids jumped from 40ish percentile to 90th percentile on reading over a couple of years.) If she needs more enrichment in math and she's somewhere around grade level, the school won't provide it, so you have to find a way to do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would also emphasize what the percentiles mean - 39th percentile means she scored better than or equal to 39 percent of kids in her grade. It doesn't technically say whether or not this is "at grade level" (unless you got the info on your report of what "grade level" represents) but it does say that she's not in the top half of students in math in her grade level (in theory, everyone can improve enough to be "at grade level" or the standards for "grade level" could drop enough for this to be the case.) I would also agree to take more stock in the MAP scores. If anything though, at our ES, my kids tend to get Bs in math some quarters despite being 98-99th percentile in math. I do always talk to them about what's going on when this happens (because it usually means they're not checking their work enough) but it's not true that every teacher at every MCPS school just hands out As. (I have a hard time believing that everyone else is getting As.)

This is actually why I think that standardized scores can be more useful than grades - they're scored the same way across the state/country. We probably have too many of them and yes, one can have an off day, but they still provide you with good info. Whereas comparing GPAs across schools seems like a fool's errand, regardless of what "standards" teachers are supposed to use to grade them.

So OP - I would basically say, don't trust the teacher at all. Do what you know is best for your DD. There's a chance that math won't be her thing (someone has to be 39th percentile), but she can still improve. (One of my kids jumped from 40ish percentile to 90th percentile on reading over a couple of years.) If she needs more enrichment in math and she's somewhere around grade level, the school won't provide it, so you have to find a way to do so.

OP here again. Thank you. This is really useful, detailed advice and information.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Come Middle School, except to get into the magnet and specialty programs for high school, it is meaningless. You are put on the math track in 6th.

OP isn’t interested in facts. Just micromanaging already overworked staff.

Hi, mcps teacher 👋

[Anonymous]

Beast Academy is the answer.

[Anonymous]

Don’t trust the teacher!??? Where do you think kids learn? MAP is not used as a one-stop-shop because it’s not truly reflective of a student’s actual abilities and there is no way to adjust the test to different learning needs. Colleges are actually starting to move away from standardized testing as part of their admissions process. Student portfolios are more of a holistic and equitable approach to truly assess where a student is.

There are so so many variables that may affect scores. Anxiety is a huge one. L Please do some reading outside of what NWEA publishes. Lots of “experts” here. I’m really saddened by the disrespect shown to the teacher who is most likely gently informing you to look at the whole picture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don’t trust the teacher!??? Where do you think kids learn? MAP is not used as a one-stop-shop because it’s not truly reflective of a student’s actual abilities and there is no way to adjust the test to different learning needs. Colleges are actually starting to move away from standardized testing as part of their admissions process. Student portfolios are more of a holistic and equitable approach to truly assess where a student is.

There are so so many variables that may affect scores. Anxiety is a huge one. L Please do some reading outside of what NWEA publishes. Lots of “experts” here. I’m really saddened by the disrespect shown to the teacher who is most likely gently informing you to look at the whole picture.

This is DCUM. What did you expect ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Beast Academy is the answer.

I love BA, but it isn't the answer for this situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don’t trust the teacher!??? Where do you think kids learn? MAP is not used as a one-stop-shop because it’s not truly reflective of a student’s actual abilities and there is no way to adjust the test to different learning needs. Colleges are actually starting to move away from standardized testing as part of their admissions process. Student portfolios are more of a holistic and equitable approach to truly assess where a student is.

There are so so many variables that may affect scores. Anxiety is a huge one. L Please do some reading outside of what NWEA publishes. Lots of “experts” here. I’m really saddened by the disrespect shown to the teacher who is most likely gently informing you to look at the whole picture.

It's no disrespect to say that teachers vary widely. Some just aren't that reliable and it isn't always their fault.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Mathnasium has a strong financial incentive to tell you that your kid is behind at the beginning and then, after months of classes there, they will probably proudly announce that she is fixed, thanks to them!

I wouldn’t assume that the teacher is hiding something and mathnasium is the objective arbiter here.

This was my first thought.

NP. Mathnasium’s also matched my daughter’s MAPS score. As a result of going to Mathnasium for a year, my 5th grade daughter with multiple learning differences and an IEP, not only increased her MAPS score by 50% but her special education teacher also used her score to suggest suspending services. DD is thrilled not to be pulled out of class anymore.

OP here. This is encouraging. Thank you for sharing this. I hope my child sees a similar bump in her MAP score.

OP- you must take your daughter's education into your own hands. You cannot trust that your child will leave mcps with functional academics. I had to spend a summer teaching my advanced son how to write a decent paragraph and have spent thousands of hours working with my child with disabilities. Make sure you child knows the basics in every subject area and has a solid foundation. You are right to and know now that you must continue to ask questions and supplement.

-Mcps educator

Exactly this. A lot of parents supplement in elementary school either themselves or via a tutor or outside program. You need to teach your kid the basics.

As a nonwhite parent, I think most black and brown parents don’t realize this.

White and Asian parents have been either teaching their kids themselves or supplementing with tutors for much longer than in the black and brown community, which is a significant factor in why their kids have historically performed better on academic assessments.

This was not true of my family nor of any other Asian kid I knew growing up in our area. That may be because we were immigrants and couldn't afford tutors, and our parents didn't speak English and could not tutor us themselves. The mere cultural value placed on education was enough to make sure that I and all of my friends did well academically and graduated from college. You're thinking of wealthy families, which have had the resources to do this regardless of their skin color.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don’t trust the teacher!??? Where do you think kids learn? MAP is not used as a one-stop-shop because it’s not truly reflective of a student’s actual abilities and there is no way to adjust the test to different learning needs. Colleges are actually starting to move away from standardized testing as part of their admissions process. Student portfolios are more of a holistic and equitable approach to truly assess where a student is.

There are so so many variables that may affect scores. Anxiety is a huge one. L Please do some reading outside of what NWEA publishes. Lots of “experts” here. I’m really saddened by the disrespect shown to the teacher who is most likely gently informing you to look at the whole picture.

Clearly the whole picture is not being observed. The whole picture is what the OP pointed towards (declining scores over three exams, difficulty with homework to the point of needing additional help at home, teacher rushing(as noted by student and teacher), scores on class assignments/test. This points to a student needing some additional review/practice/support. Maybe not as much as some other students, but still some.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t trust the teacher!??? Where do you think kids learn? MAP is not used as a one-stop-shop because it’s not truly reflective of a student’s actual abilities and there is no way to adjust the test to different learning needs. Colleges are actually starting to move away from standardized testing as part of their admissions process. Student portfolios are more of a holistic and equitable approach to truly assess where a student is.

There are so so many variables that may affect scores. Anxiety is a huge one. L Please do some reading outside of what NWEA publishes. Lots of “experts” here. I’m really saddened by the disrespect shown to the teacher who is most likely gently informing you to look at the whole picture.

Clearly the whole picture is not being observed. The whole picture is what the OP pointed towards (declining scores over three exams, difficulty with homework to the point of needing additional help at home, teacher rushing(as noted by student and teacher), scores on class assignments/test. This points to a student needing some additional review/practice/support. Maybe not as much as some other students, but still some.

It’s not a matter of not trusting teachers but being realistic about the overall dynamic and incentive structure at play in the public schools. The schools just aren’t incentivized to do much unless a child is absolutely failing. There are just too many students with high needs and not enough resources. They are simply not positioned to get your child to realize their full potential. If you want more, it has to happen apart from school. Yes - your child is doing well enough for the school’s purposes. That may be ok as a matter of public policy, if you want more for your child it’s perfectly fine to strive for it.

This isn’t a knock on schools or teachers, but they exist within a larger meta structure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don’t trust the teacher!??? Where do you think kids learn? MAP is not used as a one-stop-shop because it’s not truly reflective of a student’s actual abilities and there is no way to adjust the test to different learning needs. Colleges are actually starting to move away from standardized testing as part of their admissions process. Student portfolios are more of a holistic and equitable approach to truly assess where a student is.

There are so so many variables that may affect scores. Anxiety is a huge one. L Please do some reading outside of what NWEA publishes. Lots of “experts” here. I’m really saddened by the disrespect shown to the teacher who is most likely gently informing you to look at the whole picture.

Are you kidding? Unless your kid is below grade level, the teachers ignore them completely. ES is just daycare. I have to do all the teaching or hire tutors. My youngest never even had a reading group. The only kids who get that are the ones who are struggling. Sorry but MCPS isn't the same as even 5 years ago these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t trust the teacher!??? Where do you think kids learn? MAP is not used as a one-stop-shop because it’s not truly reflective of a student’s actual abilities and there is no way to adjust the test to different learning needs. Colleges are actually starting to move away from standardized testing as part of their admissions process. Student portfolios are more of a holistic and equitable approach to truly assess where a student is.

There are so so many variables that may affect scores. Anxiety is a huge one. L Please do some reading outside of what NWEA publishes. Lots of “experts” here. I’m really saddened by the disrespect shown to the teacher who is most likely gently informing you to look at the whole picture.

Are you kidding? Unless your kid is below grade level, the teachers ignore them completely. ES is just daycare. I have to do all the teaching or hire tutors. My youngest never even had a reading group. The only kids who get that are the ones who are struggling. Sorry but MCPS isn't the same as even 5 years ago these days.

There was another thread recently where parents actually stated the contrary -- that the younger kids who are taking Dibels and are above grade level are getting pulled out for enriched reading groups. This is not happening for me, but I'm hopeful that this change is transpiring across the county.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t trust the teacher!??? Where do you think kids learn? MAP is not used as a one-stop-shop because it’s not truly reflective of a student’s actual abilities and there is no way to adjust the test to different learning needs. Colleges are actually starting to move away from standardized testing as part of their admissions process. Student portfolios are more of a holistic and equitable approach to truly assess where a student is.

There are so so many variables that may affect scores. Anxiety is a huge one. L Please do some reading outside of what NWEA publishes. Lots of “experts” here. I’m really saddened by the disrespect shown to the teacher who is most likely gently informing you to look at the whole picture.

Are you kidding? Unless your kid is below grade level, the teachers ignore them completely. ES is just daycare. I have to do all the teaching or hire tutors. My youngest never even had a reading group. The only kids who get that are the ones who are struggling. Sorry but MCPS isn't the same as even 5 years ago these days.

There was another thread recently where parents actually stated the contrary -- that the younger kids who are taking Dibels and are above grade level are getting pulled out for enriched reading groups. This is not happening for me, but I'm hopeful that this change is transpiring across the county.

+1. This is a well reasoned statement. Change is happening in the district. It may not be occurring as every individual student/family needs at the moment but it is happening. And we need to give Kudos and keeping moving forward with positive change and elevate the areas where more change is still needed.